Householder traditions are dangerous!

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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S Johann
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Householder traditions are dangerous!

Post by S Johann »

My person knows that his steady pointing on it isn't beloved, gets people even fast angry, but for the sake of those capable to consider wise, here this topic.

Once the Gems are deprived from the perception of Sangha of monks, the embody of the Arahat, of the fourth heavenly messenger, what ever practice can hardly lead out of even your current realm, and in most cases leads people downwardly, having trained householder-equanimity.

What ever modern movement, starting by popular Goenka, going deep into the area a householder-monks teaching householder... is not only destructive for individuals, trying to make use in common-creative ways, but the tradition as a whole.

It's good to get aware that there isn't any Sangha established yet, after more then 150 years in the west, modern would, since popularity increased and the back-slashing of common marxist ideas into the old world does fast destructions on last remainings as well.

If deprived of the base of the basic reflections it's near impossible to gain even access-areas concentration and no change to came near the borderland of the Noble Domain.

All know the outcomings in regard of virtue, moral...lack of generosity, grave wrong doings so common and accepted in all kinds of westernized and modern upgrade lay buddhism (incl monks like householder)
Sometimes getting banned, sometimes deprived of means, and taken on account on very insecure trust to be given actually, it might be that not always responsing or message might got deleted.
D1W1
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Re: Householder traditions are dangerous!

Post by D1W1 »

Re: Householder traditions are dangerous!
Then don't follow householder traditions. It's simple.
SarathW
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Re: Householder traditions are dangerous!

Post by SarathW »

It is difficult for me to understand what the question is.
Perhaps write the question in your language and use Google translate to convert to English.
I am sorry if this is a different kind of English.
I have heard in the UK people speak differently which I could not understand.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Rambutan
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Re: Householder traditions are dangerous!

Post by Rambutan »

Nothing in this tirade explains why it is a true statement.

Nobody is perfect. Theravada monks in temples, while they themselves meditate and lead pure lives, often serve no more purpose to the laity than the function of Hindu Brahmin priests, providing blessing services and funerals to a lay population that supports them with financial contributions simply in order to receive ‘boon’ (merit). So, why shouldn’t the unordained feel compelled towards a householder-driven sangha?

I respect both types of traditions. But if one is going to lay down some hammer of condemnation, one should explain the reason and consider that imperfections are everywhere.
sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

My understanding is that The Venerable lives in a cave in a distant and isolated part of Kampuchea, relying wholly on the generosity of a few lay supporters, and this is a polemic about the lacks in local traditions decimated by Khmer Rouge actions and further distorted by wrong understandings of the teachings by many of those taught by modern lay teachers. It is indeed a dangerous realm. At the same time, bearing that in mind, it is also very fruitful.
Bhikkhu Ariyananda
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Re: Householder traditions are dangerous!

Post by Bhikkhu Ariyananda »

I Don't see how it is Dangerous.

If not for Goenka ji would the world have practiced Vipassana Mediation? Hundreds of thousands of them across the world?

I can understand if you are saying Householder-monks which is a different thing where in some traditions some Monks even marry which is a different thing

Here teachers are normal laypeople, householders.

Selfless hours of volunteering by students and teachers alike

So much effort goes into each course being conducted , so much of time, money, infrastructure all for the good of people, for the good of beings.

How is it dangerous? When even Monks come and practise

Weren't there competent Dhamma teachers like "Citta" the householder even at the time of Buddha?

Lots of Metta
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sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

Again, this is my understanding of what The Venerable has written and I think it is good, worthwhile to try to understand his meaning. Perhaps he will himself clarify one day.

I note he writes about the Sangha. Does one think of the Sangha as being everyone who is practising or is it something much more traditional in the sense of the truly Noble Ones. Those who are at least stream enterers. Are ordinary practitioners elevated to positions of authority and by the words of the Canon attributed with unrealised qualities. For example, I noted that a teacher changes the word Bhikkhu to student. In making such a revision is it not possible to lessen the important fact that the discourse is delivered to particular individuals who are in training and who have committed themselves to a virtuous life. I think Goenkaji is strictly following the Dhamma but as he himself has cautioned, students of his has taken it on their selves to start teaching when they really still have a long way to go. Note that The Venerable is also addressing those who have been taught.
SarathW
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Re:

Post by SarathW »

sunnat wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 12:53 am Again, this is my understanding of what The Venerable has written and I think it is good, worthwhile to try to understand his meaning. Perhaps he will himself clarify one day.

I note he writes about the Sangha. Does one think of the Sangha as being everyone who is practising or is it something much more traditional in the sense of the truly Noble Ones. Those who are at least stream enterers. Are ordinary practitioners elevated to positions of authority and by the words of the Canon attributed with unrealised qualities. For example, I noted that a teacher changes the word Bhikkhu to student. In making such a revision is it not possible to lessen the important fact that the discourse is delivered to particular individuals who are in training and who have committed themselves to a virtuous life. I think Goenkaji is strictly following the Dhamma but as he himself has cautioned, students of his has taken it on their selves to start teaching when they really still have a long way to go. Note that The Venerable is also addressing those who have been taught.
Thank you now I understood his question.
So he is questioning whether traditions such as Goenka are dangerous.
In my opinion, it can be dangerous if you do not have an open mind.
In Sri Lanka, some married laypeople are claimed to be Arahant.

However, this may be true for the ordained Sangha too.
There are many rogue monks too.

Perhaps a website such as Dhamma Wheel is also a sort of Household Sangha as many contributions are from the laypeople.
So even a Dhamma Website could be dangerous.

There was a similar question as to what is authentic Buddhism. So my answer was.
o me, authentic Buddhism is the Buddhism you follow with verified confidence. (Saddha)
This is hard because we do not know what is or who is right.
The teachings such as rebirth, Kamma Vipaka, and Nibbana has to be accepted with the faith.
For this, you should have a good friend (Kalyanamitta) and listen to the true Dhamma from him.
But how do we know whether our friend is a Kalyanamitta?
For this, you have to know the true Dhamma and practice it.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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mjaviem
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Re: Re:

Post by mjaviem »

SarathW wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 9:15 am ...
Perhaps a website such as Dhamma Wheel is also a sort of Household Sangha as many contributions are from the laypeople.
So even a Dhamma Website could be dangerous.
...
In DW there are discussions about the Dhamma. Nobody is claiming attainments and a position to teach others. And I regard DW a good place to learn. Why would it be dangerous? What the alternative then?
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
SarathW
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Re: Re:

Post by SarathW »

mjaviem wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 10:34 am
SarathW wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 9:15 am ...
Perhaps a website such as Dhamma Wheel is also a sort of Household Sangha as many contributions are from the laypeople.
So even a Dhamma Website could be dangerous.
...
In DW there are discussions about the Dhamma. Nobody is claiming attainments and a position to teach others. And I regard DW a good place to learn. Why would it be dangerous? What the alternative then?
What I am saying is even in Dhamma Wheel there are various opinions in regards to Dhamma.
It is a danger when you accept a wrong opinion.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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mjaviem
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Re: Re:

Post by mjaviem »

SarathW wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 10:56 am ...
What I am saying is even in Dhamma Wheel there are various opinions in regards to Dhamma.
It is a danger when you accept a wrong opinion.
Yes, we need to see which ones lead to dispassion and detachment.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Mangaka
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Re: Householder traditions are dangerous!

Post by Mangaka »

It is blessing to listen Dhamma from venerable monks, to learn and apply it into our practise. This is how it was in time of Buddha (you can read about it in suttas). Both monks and householders were visiting the Buddha both to receive teachings and venerate the Blessed One.
Now when we still have oportunity to hear Dhamma from sangha, it is wise to take this chance and lend ear to the teachings, travel to monks (visit them), even if they don't live around our places. By the way.. today in times of trains buses, cars etc. it is not a big problem, isn't it?
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mjaviem
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Re: Householder traditions are dangerous!

Post by mjaviem »

Mangaka wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 12:56 pm ... even if they don't live around our places. By the way.. today in times of trains buses, cars etc. it is not a big problem, isn't it?
Manyt countries have no Sangha
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Mangaka
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Re: Householder traditions are dangerous!

Post by Mangaka »

mjaviem wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 2:09 pm
Mangaka wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 12:56 pm ... even if they don't live around our places. By the way.. today in times of trains buses, cars etc. it is not a big problem, isn't it?
Manyt countries have no Sangha
Then I think a good idea is to use internet for example (both for Dhamma talks and guided meditations or to contact some monastery and ask for Dhamma teaching).
Or.. if there is difficulty with internet, there are still books about Dhamma. Tipitaka books or books from nowadays.
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confusedlayman
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Re: Householder traditions are dangerous!

Post by confusedlayman »

Only ordination is the way.. laylife is really dangerousn
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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