Where might I find the most robust defense of the Visuddhimagga position on lack of doer, etc. in conventional language?

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
auto
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Re: Where might I find the most robust defense of the Visuddhimagga position on lack of doer, etc. in conventional langu

Post by auto »

zan wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 6:17 pm ..
Look this Sutta,
https://suttacentral.net/sn1.20/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: “Judging is given up, conceit rejected;
“Pahāsi saṅkhaṁ na vimānamajjhagā,
craving for name and form is cut off right here.
Acchecchi taṇhaṁ idha nāmarūpe;
They’ve cut the ties, untroubled, with no need for hope.
Taṁ chinnaganthaṁ anighaṁ nirāsaṁ,
Though gods and humans search for them
Pariyesamānā nājjhagamuṁ;
in this world and the world beyond, they never find them,
Devā manussā idha vā huraṁ vā,
not in heaven nor in any abode.
Saggesu vā sabbanivesanesu.
Namarupa what the visuddhimagga calls human being, is gone. Yet there is a subject who is untroubled, ties cut, no need for hope.
The "not being able to find them" is not about "there were no self to begin with".

Don't be disheartened if you not understand. We will get there.
atipattoh
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Re: Where might I find the most robust defense of the Visuddhimagga position on lack of doer, etc. in conventional langu

Post by atipattoh »

Hi auto,
I'm not helping zan to ask, just being curious as to how you come to this statement
auto wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 6:58 pm Namarupa what the visuddhimagga calls human being, is gone.
I'm trying to understand the logic behind "craving for name and form is cut off right here" leads to the above, if this is where it comes from.
auto
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Where might I find the most robust defense of the Visuddhimagga position on lack of doer, etc. in conventional langu

Post by auto »

atipattoh wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 5:38 am Hi auto,
I'm not helping zan to ask, just being curious as to how you come to this statement
auto wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 6:58 pm Namarupa what the visuddhimagga calls human being, is gone.
I'm trying to understand the logic behind "craving for name and form is cut off right here" leads to the above, if this is where it comes from.
yes. Nothingness has no namarupa but craving is still there for it.
zan
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Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Where might I find the most robust defense of the Visuddhimagga position on lack of doer, etc. in conventional langu

Post by zan »

auto wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 6:58 pm
zan wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 6:17 pm ..
Look this Sutta,
https://suttacentral.net/sn1.20/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: “Judging is given up, conceit rejected;
“Pahāsi saṅkhaṁ na vimānamajjhagā,
craving for name and form is cut off right here.
Acchecchi taṇhaṁ idha nāmarūpe;
They’ve cut the ties, untroubled, with no need for hope.
Taṁ chinnaganthaṁ anighaṁ nirāsaṁ,
Though gods and humans search for them
Pariyesamānā nājjhagamuṁ;
in this world and the world beyond, they never find them,
Devā manussā idha vā huraṁ vā,
not in heaven nor in any abode.
Saggesu vā sabbanivesanesu.
Namarupa what the visuddhimagga calls human being, is gone. Yet there is a subject who is untroubled, ties cut, no need for hope.
The "not being able to find them" is not about "there were no self to begin with".

Don't be disheartened if you not understand. We will get there.
No, you are in direct contradiction of the Visuddhimagga and the suttas, too. That sutta is not saying a being can exist without nama rupa. There is no such thing. A being with neither nama nor rupa would be an atta of some kind. No such thing exists. No exceptions. Sabbe dhamma anatta.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
auto
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Where might I find the most robust defense of the Visuddhimagga position on lack of doer, etc. in conventional langu

Post by auto »

zan wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:41 am No, you are in direct contradiction of the Visuddhimagga and the suttas, too. That sutta is not saying a being can exist without nama rupa. There is no such thing. A being with neither nama nor rupa would be an atta of some kind. No such thing exists. No exceptions. Sabbe dhamma anatta.
cessation is not annihilation.
Ontheway
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Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Where might I find the most robust defense of the Visuddhimagga position on lack of doer, etc. in conventional langu

Post by Ontheway »

zan wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:41 am
auto wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 6:58 pm
zan wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 6:17 pm ..
Look this Sutta,
https://suttacentral.net/sn1.20/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: “Judging is given up, conceit rejected;
“Pahāsi saṅkhaṁ na vimānamajjhagā,
craving for name and form is cut off right here.
Acchecchi taṇhaṁ idha nāmarūpe;
They’ve cut the ties, untroubled, with no need for hope.
Taṁ chinnaganthaṁ anighaṁ nirāsaṁ,
Though gods and humans search for them
Pariyesamānā nājjhagamuṁ;
in this world and the world beyond, they never find them,
Devā manussā idha vā huraṁ vā,
not in heaven nor in any abode.
Saggesu vā sabbanivesanesu.
Namarupa what the visuddhimagga calls human being, is gone. Yet there is a subject who is untroubled, ties cut, no need for hope.
The "not being able to find them" is not about "there were no self to begin with".

Don't be disheartened if you not understand. We will get there.
No, you are in direct contradiction of the Visuddhimagga and the suttas, too. That sutta is not saying a being can exist without nama rupa. There is no such thing. A being with neither nama nor rupa would be an atta of some kind. No such thing exists. No exceptions. Sabbe dhamma anatta.
Save your time, Zan. It is pointless to argue with him. First, he took a stance of "Sassataditthi", by adopting "There is a Self existing real and in ultimate sense". Then once he was refuted by others, he accused other people of having "Ucchedaditthi" which clearly not the case. Now, he proposing a being with Nāma and Rupa altogether, which is not found in Suttanta and Abhidhamma.

Clearly it is just a "Papanca". Not worth wasting your time with it.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
auto
Posts: 4582
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Where might I find the most robust defense of the Visuddhimagga position on lack of doer, etc. in conventional langu

Post by auto »

Ontheway wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:05 am Save your time, Zan. It is pointless to argue with him. First, he took a stance of "Sassataditthi", by adopting "There is a Self existing real and in ultimate sense". Then once he was refuted by others, he accused other people of having "Ucchedaditthi" which clearly not the case. Now, he proposing a being with Nāma and Rupa altogether, which is not found in Suttanta and Abhidhamma.

Clearly it is just a "Papanca". Not worth wasting your time with it.
this says person is made up of namarupa,
abhidhamma by Tin Mon wrote:A person is made up of råpa, citta and cetasikas, or in other
words just råpa and nàma (matter and mind). These are the
ultimate realities whereas the person is just an apparent reality.
also Sutta, whereas it says 'this person has',
https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: ‘This person has six elements.’
‘Cha dhāturo ayaṁ, bhikkhu, puriso’ti—
There are these six elements:
Chayimā, bhikkhu, dhātuyo—Variant: Chayimā, bhikkhu, dhātuyo → etthantare pāṭho si, pts1ed potthakesu
the elements of earth, water, fire, air, space, and consciousness.
pathavīdhātu, āpodhātu, tejodhātu, vāyodhātu, ākāsadhātu, viññāṇadhātu.
rupa, citta, cetasikas are all mental/dhamma. They are seen with using concentration. Sense of self, how it feels is ultimate reality.
i think
apparent reality is content while paramattha is fundamentals of that content. I agree on it based on (some)people who describe their dreams, they describe the content there(what they saw, what they did etc). They don't describe fundamentals through the apparent reality. Same is if to describe states, people can't describe them because of lack of content, the content is acquired by living(jīvita) and after that can describe ultimate reality through apparent.
Even the term jīvita can be apparent if thought of life lived, or simply your actions done in daily life etc. Actually any thing said can be taken apparent when there is no concentration acquired regards to the things said, because of ultimate requires concentration.
zan
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Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Where might I find the most robust defense of the Visuddhimagga position on lack of doer, etc. in conventional langu

Post by zan »

Ontheway wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:05 am
zan wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:41 am
auto wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 6:58 pm
Look this Sutta,

Namarupa what the visuddhimagga calls human being, is gone. Yet there is a subject who is untroubled, ties cut, no need for hope.
The "not being able to find them" is not about "there were no self to begin with".

Don't be disheartened if you not understand. We will get there.
No, you are in direct contradiction of the Visuddhimagga and the suttas, too. That sutta is not saying a being can exist without nama rupa. There is no such thing. A being with neither nama nor rupa would be an atta of some kind. No such thing exists. No exceptions. Sabbe dhamma anatta.
Save your time, Zan. It is pointless to argue with him. First, he took a stance of "Sassataditthi", by adopting "There is a Self existing real and in ultimate sense". Then once he was refuted by others, he accused other people of having "Ucchedaditthi" which clearly not the case. Now, he proposing a being with Nāma and Rupa altogether, which is not found in Suttanta and Abhidhamma.

Clearly it is just a "Papanca". Not worth wasting your time with it.
Ohhhhh, ok! Thanks for the warning. Sometimes trolls with soul theories are hard to spot, as they masquerade as people trying to discuss the classical dhamma, which, of course, is their goal: trick people into questioning the classical dhamma. But, what always ends up happening, without exception, is they just get me to re-read a few sections in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha or Visuddhimagga, which entirely destroy their theories. It's very strange that they consistently, and continually believe that they will be able to somehow override the commentary tradition by presenting out of context sutta quotes with skewed, extremely biased interpretations. All this despite the commentaries being so well worded and elaborated in such great depth and length as to avoid specifically this kind of subversion! It's really quite futile to try to twist the words of the commentaries, they are incredibly clear, and even supplemented with sub commentaries, almost as if the ancients foresaw exactly these types of trolls.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Where might I find the most robust defense of the Visuddhimagga position on lack of doer, etc. in conventional langu

Post by Ontheway »

zan wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:53 pm
Ontheway wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:05 am
zan wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:41 am

No, you are in direct contradiction of the Visuddhimagga and the suttas, too. That sutta is not saying a being can exist without nama rupa. There is no such thing. A being with neither nama nor rupa would be an atta of some kind. No such thing exists. No exceptions. Sabbe dhamma anatta.
Save your time, Zan. It is pointless to argue with him. First, he took a stance of "Sassataditthi", by adopting "There is a Self existing real and in ultimate sense". Then once he was refuted by others, he accused other people of having "Ucchedaditthi" which clearly not the case. Now, he proposing a being with Nāma and Rupa altogether, which is not found in Suttanta and Abhidhamma.

Clearly it is just a "Papanca". Not worth wasting your time with it.
Ohhhhh, ok! Thanks for the warning. Sometimes trolls with soul theories are hard to spot, as they masquerade as people trying to discuss the classical dhamma, which, of course, is their goal: trick people into questioning the classical dhamma. But, what always ends up happening, without exception, is they just get me to re-read a few sections in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha or Visuddhimagga, which entirely destroy their theories. It's very strange that they consistently, and continually believe that they will be able to somehow override the commentary tradition by presenting out of context sutta quotes with skewed, extremely biased interpretations. All this despite the commentaries being so well worded and elaborated in such great depth and length as to avoid specifically this kind of subversion! It's really quite futile to try to twist the words of the commentaries, they are incredibly clear, and even supplemented with sub commentaries, almost as if the ancients foresaw exactly these types of trolls.
So it is !

Typo
Now, he proposing a being without* Nāma and Rupa altogether, which is not found in Suttanta and Abhidhamma.
If people just really sit down, read through Visuddhimagga and Abhidhammattha Sangaha without prejudice and hatred, one can be assured that Sakkāyadiṭṭhi will soon be abandoned via right view.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
auto
Posts: 4582
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Where might I find the most robust defense of the Visuddhimagga position on lack of doer, etc. in conventional langu

Post by auto »

Ontheway wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 5:08 am If people just really sit down, read through Visuddhimagga and Abhidhammattha Sangaha without prejudice and hatred, one can be assured that Sakkāyadiṭṭhi will soon be abandoned via right view.
Do you mean adopting annihilationism of 'there is no self to begin with' as the noble truth?
zan
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Where might I find the most robust defense of the Visuddhimagga position on lack of doer, etc. in conventional langu

Post by zan »

Ontheway wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 5:08 am
zan wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:53 pm
Ontheway wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:05 am

Save your time, Zan. It is pointless to argue with him. First, he took a stance of "Sassataditthi", by adopting "There is a Self existing real and in ultimate sense". Then once he was refuted by others, he accused other people of having "Ucchedaditthi" which clearly not the case. Now, he proposing a being with Nāma and Rupa altogether, which is not found in Suttanta and Abhidhamma.

Clearly it is just a "Papanca". Not worth wasting your time with it.
Ohhhhh, ok! Thanks for the warning. Sometimes trolls with soul theories are hard to spot, as they masquerade as people trying to discuss the classical dhamma, which, of course, is their goal: trick people into questioning the classical dhamma. But, what always ends up happening, without exception, is they just get me to re-read a few sections in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha or Visuddhimagga, which entirely destroy their theories. It's very strange that they consistently, and continually believe that they will be able to somehow override the commentary tradition by presenting out of context sutta quotes with skewed, extremely biased interpretations. All this despite the commentaries being so well worded and elaborated in such great depth and length as to avoid specifically this kind of subversion! It's really quite futile to try to twist the words of the commentaries, they are incredibly clear, and even supplemented with sub commentaries, almost as if the ancients foresaw exactly these types of trolls.
So it is !

Typo
Now, he proposing a being without* Nāma and Rupa altogether, which is not found in Suttanta and Abhidhamma.
If people just really sit down, read through Visuddhimagga and Abhidhammattha Sangaha without prejudice and hatred, one can be assured that Sakkāyadiṭṭhi will soon be abandoned via right view.
:goodpost:
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
auto
Posts: 4582
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Where might I find the most robust defense of the Visuddhimagga position on lack of doer, etc. in conventional langu

Post by auto »

zan wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:48 pm :goodpost:
i'm doing it, reading some abhidhamma and find so much already about the being, that it doesn't die, cease to exist when life ends.
abhidhamma by Narada Thera p305 wrote:By death is meant the extinction of psychic
life (jãvitindriya), heat (usma = tejodhàtu), and consciousness
(vi¤¤àõa) of one individual in a particular existence.
Death is not the complete annihilation of a being.
Jack19990101
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Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:40 am

Re: Where might I find the most robust defense of the Visuddhimagga position on lack of doer, etc. in conventional langu

Post by Jack19990101 »

robertk wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 6:23 am
Jack19990101 wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 7:09 pm There is some hesitation on 'no doer of deed, no reap of result.'
If this comes as an insight spontaneously within, it is all well. This will just confirm the positivity of the insight.
This insight will defy kamma.

No such phrase in Theravada. Perhaps you misquoted visuddimagga given by Zan earlier:

There is no doer of a deed
Or one who reaps the deed’s result;
Phenomena alone flow on—
No other view than this is right.

-Vism. XIX.20

Thus there is kamma and result. But not a self.
Yeah, i glanced zan's post and typed out of by memory, botched.
zan
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Where might I find the most robust defense of the Visuddhimagga position on lack of doer, etc. in conventional langu

Post by zan »

auto wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 5:43 pm
zan wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:48 pm :goodpost:
i'm doing it, reading some abhidhamma and find so much already about the being, that it doesn't die, cease to exist when life ends.
abhidhamma by Narada Thera p305 wrote:By death is meant the extinction of psychic
life (jãvitindriya), heat (usma = tejodhàtu), and consciousness
(vi¤¤àõa) of one individual in a particular existence.
Death is not the complete annihilation of a being.
You're a troll. You'll read through it, cherry pick select lines, repeat them out of context, and claim that they support your soul theories. This, again, is not going to work on anyone who actually has a firm understanding of the commentaries. You might be able to work your tricks on those that only read the suttas, but the commentaries expand on precisely the suttas that you twist to ostensibly prove your points, and explain your reasoning away. The ambiguities you rely on are completely absent in the commentary tradition. The commentaries are so well worded and elaborated in such great depth and length as to avoid specifically this kind of subversion. It's really quite futile to try to twist the words of the commentaries, they are incredibly clear, and even supplemented with sub commentaries, almost as if the ancients foresaw exactly your type of troll.

You'll have just as much luck convincing an orthodox Theravadin of your atta as you will convincing an orthodox Hindu that the Upanishads, Brahma sutra, and Bhagavad Gita, complete with commentary by Ramanuja, support anatta. But I'm not going to try to understand the psychology of internet trolling, and instead will leave you to it. I'll say in parting that I wish you good luck in that I truly hope that through your disingenuous "studies" you see the truth in the Theravada and give up your soul theories, and become an actual Theravadin.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
All things (dhammas) are not self
-SN 44.10
...The Buddha declares that “all phenomena are nonself” (sabbe dhammā anattā), which means that if one seeks a self anywhere one will not find one. Since “all phenomena” includes both the conditioned and the unconditioned, this precludes an utterly transcendent, ineffable self."-Bhikkhu Bodhi's footnote to SN 44.10
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
auto
Posts: 4582
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Where might I find the most robust defense of the Visuddhimagga position on lack of doer, etc. in conventional langu

Post by auto »

zan wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 9:33 pm ..
Read the simile and try understand it. its not about that the apparent reality doesn't exist, it is existing and is ultimate reality.
abhidhamma by Tin Mon wrote:Ultimate reality is the ultimate truth (paramattha-sacca). It is
called paramattha in Abhidhamma.
In basic science we learn about the apparent depth of an object
in water. The apparent depth is shallower than the real depth. It
appears to be the true depth due to the deviation of light rays on
passing from a denser medium (water) to a lighter medium (air).
So if a fisherman throws a spear at a fish where he sees it under
water, the spear will not hit the fish, because the fish is not really
there.
Lets take another translator and simile about what i posted in the previous post,
abhidhamma by Narada Thera wrote: Death in one place means the birth in another place, just as, in conventional
terms, the rising of the sun in one place means
the setting of the sun in another place.
Might be a bit different take but if you die then simultaneously you are appearing in another place.

care to comment on these examples?
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