Where might I find the most robust defense of the Visuddhimagga position on lack of doer, etc. in conventional language?

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
zan
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Where might I find the most robust defense of the Visuddhimagga position on lack of doer, etc. in conventional langu

Post by zan »

I found a couple of texts that fit this bill, though more are always welcome.

Anattā and Nibbāna
Egolessness and Deliverance
by
Nyanaponika Thera

Here are two excerpts, though I recommend reading the entire essay:
In India, a country so deeply religious and philosophically so creative, the far greater danger to the preservation of the Dhamma’s character as a “middle way” came from the other extreme. It consisted in identifying, or connecting, the concept of Nibbāna with any of the numerous theistic, pantheistic or other speculative ideas of a positive-metaphysical type, chiefly with various conceptions of an abiding self.

According to the penetrative analysis in the Brahmajāla Sutta (DN 1), all the diverse metaphysical and theological views concerning the nature of the self, the world and a divine ground from which they might come, arise from either of two sources: (1) from a limited and misinterpreted meditative experience (in which we may also include supposed revelations, prophetic inspirations, etc.), and (2) from bare reasoning (speculative philosophy and theology). But behind all these metaphysical and theological notions, there looms, as the driving force, the powerful urge in man to preserve, in some way, his belief in an abiding personality which he can invest with all his longings for permanence, security and eternal happiness. It is therefore not surprising that a number of present-day interpreters of Buddhismperhaps through the force of that powerful, instinctive urge for self-preservation and the influence of long-cherished and widely-held viewsadvocate a positive-metaphysical interpretation of Nibbāna and Anattā. Some of these sincerely believe themselves to be genuine Buddhists, and possess a genuine devotion towards the Buddha and a fair appreciation of other aspects of his teaching. We shall now look at these views.

-Anattā and Nibbāna
Egolessness and Deliverance, Nyanaponika Thera, II The Positive-Metaphysical Extreme,
Section 4
Section 5
(a) Common to both views is the assumption of an eternal self supposed to exist beyond the five aggregates that make up personality and existence in its entirety. The supposition that the Buddha should have taught anything like that is clearly and sufficiently refuted by the following saying alone:

Any ascetics or brāhmans who regard manifold (things or ideas) as the self, all regard the five aggregates (as the self) or any one of them. (SN 22:47)

This textual passage also excludes any misinterpretation of the standard formulation of the Anattā doctrine: “This does not belong to me, this I am not, this is not my self.” Some writers believe that this formula permits the conclusion that the Buddha supposed a self to exist outside, or beyond, the five aggregates to which the formula usually refers. This wrong deduction is disposed of by the statement of the Buddha quoted above which clearly says that all the manifold conceptions of a self can have reference only to the five aggregateseither collectively or selectively. How else could any idea of a self or a personality be formed, if not from the material of the five aggregates and from a misconception about them? On what else could notions about a self be based? This fact about the only possible way whereby ideas of a self can be formed was expressed by the Buddha himself in the continuation of the text quoted above:

There is, bhikkhus, an uninstructed worldling.• He regards corporeality as self, or the self as possessing corporeality, or the corporeality as being within the self, or the self within corporeality (similarly with the four mental aggregates). [8] In this way he arrives at that very conception “I am.”

Further it was said: “If there are corporeality, feeling, perception, formations and consciousness, on account of them and dependent on them arises the belief in individuality • and speculations about a self” (SN 22:154, 155).

(b) If the words “I,” “ego,” “personality” and “self” should have meaning at all, any form of an ego-conception, even the most abstract and diluted one, must necessarily be connected with the idea of particularity or separateness with a differentiation from what is regarded as not “ego.” But from what would that particularity or differentiation be derived if not from the only available data of experience, the physical and mental phenomena comprised by the five aggregates?

In the Majjhima Nikāya sutta called “The Simile of the Snake” (MN 22), it is said: “If, monks, there is a self, will there also be what belongs to self?” — “Yes, Lord.” — “If there is what belongs to self, will there also be ’My self’?” — “Yes, Lord.” — “But since a self and self’s belongings cannot truly be found, is this not a perfectly foolish doctrine: ’This is the world, this the self. Permanent, abiding, eternal, immutable shall I be after death, persisting in eternal identity’?” — “It is, Lord, a perfectly foolish doctrine?” [9]

The first sentence of that text expresses, in a manner as simple as it is emphatic, the fact pointed out before: that the assumption of a self requires also something belonging to a self (attaniya), i.e., properties by which that self receives its distinguishing characteristics. To speak of a self devoid of such differentiating attributes, having therefore nothing to characterize it and to give meaningful contents to the word, will be entirely senseless and in contradiction to the accepted usage of these terms “self,” “ego,” etc. But this very thing is done by those who advocate the first of the two main-types of the “positive-metaphysical extreme”: that is, the assumption of a “great universal self or over-self” (mahātman) supposed to merge with, or be basically identical with, a universal and undifferentiated (nirguṇa) metaphysical principle which is sometimes equated with Nibbāna. Those who hold these views are sometimes found to make the bold claim that the Buddha wanted to deny only a separate self and that in none of his utterances did he reject the existence of a transcendental self. What has been said before in this section may serve as an answer to these beliefs.

-Anattā and Nibbāna
Egolessness and Deliverance, Nyanaponika Thera, II The Positive-Metaphysical Extreme,
Section 5
The Truth of Anattā
By
Dr. G.P. Malalasekera

Here is an excerpt, thought, again, I recommend the entire essay:
The Buddhist argument against the doctrine of ātman is
twofold. In the first place the Buddha takes various aspects
of the personality and contends that none of them can be
identified with the ātman since they do not have
characteristics of the ātman. Thus, the question is asked
(e.g., in M I 232 ff ): Is the body (the physical personality)
permanent or impermanent? The answer is: It is
impermanent. Is what is impermanent sorrowful or happy?
Sorrowful. Of what is impermanent, sorrowful and liable to
change, is it proper to regard it as ’This is mine, this I am,
this is my soul?’ It is not. The canonical commentary, the
Paṭisambhidāmagga (I 37), adds that rūpa etc., is not self in
the sense that it has no core (sāra).
The same argument is repeated for the other aspects of the
personality such as feeling (vedanā), perception or ideation
(saññā), dispositions or tendencies (saṅkhāra) and
consciousness (viññāṇa).
A similar procedure is attributed to Prajāpati in the
Chāndogya Upaniṣad (8 7-12) but there is a very great
difference in the attitudes of the two questioners. Prajāpati
assumes the existence of an ātman and, when he fails to
12
identify it with any of the aspects of the person-personality,
continues to assume that it must exist within it, somewhere,
somehow, in spite of its failure to show up in a purely
empirical investigation. The Buddha, on the other hand,
accepts, the definition of the ātman, without assuming its
existence or non-existence; and when the empirical
investigation, fails to reveal any such ātman, He concludes
that no such ātman exists because there is no evidence for its
existence.
The second argument of the Buddha is that belief in a
permanent self would negate the usefulness of the moral
life. More of this later. In the first discourse, the
Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, given after his
Enlightenment, the Buddha set out the Four Noble Truths.
In the second, the Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta,
[2] He stated the
characteristics of his doctrine of the not-self (anattā). Here
He begins by emphasizing that if there were a self it should
be autonomous, but no such thing is to be found. Matter
(rūpa) is not the self. Were matter self, then the body would
not be subject to affliction, one should be able to say to it
’Let my body be thus. Let my body be not thus.’ But this is
not possible; the body is shifting and ever in change and,
therefore, ever accompanied by misery and affliction.
Accordingly, it cannot be the self. The same is repeated for
the other aspects of the personality. The conclusion is,
therefore, reached that all these things, whether past, future
or presently arisen, in one self or external, gross or subtle,
inferior or Superior, far or near, are all to be viewed thus:
13
’This is not mine, this is not what I am, this is not my self.’
Then it is added, when a man realises that all these things
are not the self he turns away from them and by the
extinction of desire he attains release. Here we find for the
first time indication of the Buddha’s purpose in enunciating
His doctrine. All misery, in His view, arises from the
delusion of self which causes man to strive to profit himself,
not to injure others. The most effective therapeutic against
the folly of seeking to gratify longings is the realization that
there is no truth in the doctrine of a permanent self.

-The Truth of Anattā, Dr. G.P. Malalasekera,
pages 12-14
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Where might I find the most robust defense of the Visuddhimagga position on lack of doer, etc. in conventional langu

Post by Ontheway »

The Buddha was discriminative and analytical to the highest degree (vibhajjavādi). As a scientist resolves a limb into tissues and the tissues into cells, he analysed all component and conditioned things into their fundamental elements, right down to their ultimates, and condemned shallow thinking, unsystematic attention, which tends to make man muddle-headed and hinders the investigation of the true nature of things. It is through right understanding that one sees cause and effect, the arising and ceasing of all conditioned things. The truth of the Dhamma can only be grasped in that way, and not through blind belief, wrong view, speculation or even by abstract philosophy.

The Buddha says: “This Dhamma is for the wise and not for the unwise,” and explains the ways and means of attaining wisdom by stages, and avoiding false views. Right understanding permeates the entire teaching, pervades every part and aspect of the Dhamma and functions as the keynote of Buddhism.

What then is right understanding? It is the understanding of dukkha or the unsatisfactory nature of all phenomenal existence, its arising, its cessation and the path leading to its cessation. Thus, ignorance of the real nature of life is primarily ignorance of the Four Noble Truths. It is because of their ignorance of these truths that beings are tethered to becoming and are born again and again. Hear these words of the Buddha: “Monks, it is through not understanding, not penetrating the Four Noble Truths that we have run so long, wandered so long in samsāra, in this cycle of continuity, both you and I …. But when these Four Noble Truths are understood and penetrated, rooted out is the craving for existence, destroyed is that which leads to renewed becoming, and there is no more coming to be.” In his first proclamation of the Dhamma, addressing the five ascetics, the Buddha says: “So long as my knowledge and vision of reality regarding these Four Noble Truths, in three phases and twelve aspects was not fully clear to me, I did not claim to have attained incomparable supreme enlightenment in the world. But when my knowledge and vision of reality regarding these Four Noble Truths was clear to me, then I claimed to have won incomparable supreme enlightenment in this world.” These words clearly indicate that right understanding in the highest sense is comprehension of the Four Noble Truths. To grasp these truths is to understand the intricacies of nature. “A person who fully understands these truths is truly called ‘intuitively wise’.’”

Now, right understanding is of two kinds, mundane and supramundane. An ordinary worldling’s knowledge of the efficacy of moral causation or of actions and their results (kamma, and kammavipāka) and the knowledge that accords with the Four Noble Truths (saccānulomikañāna) is called mundane (lokiya) right understanding. It is mundane because the understanding is not yet free from taints. This may be called “knowing accordingly” (anubodha). But right understanding experienced at the moment of attaining one or the other of the four stages of realization is called supramundane (lokuttara) right understanding. This is what is known as “penetration” (pativedha).

Thus, there is right understanding cultivated by the worldling (puthujjana) and by the Noble Ones (Ariyas). It is at the higher level that right understanding, in conjunction with the remaining seven factors, reaches consummation.

Due to lack of right understanding, the ordinary man is blind to the true nature of life and fails to see the universal fact of life, dukkha, unsatisfactoriness. He does not even try to grasp these facts but hastily considers the doctrine as pessimism. It is natural, perhaps, for beings engrossed in mundane pleasures, beings who crave more and more for gratification of the senses and loathe pain, to resent the very idea of suffering and turn their backs on it.

They do not, however, realize that even as they condemn the idea of dukkha and adhere to their own convenient and optimistic view of things, they are still being oppressed by the ever-recurring unsatisfactory nature of life.

It is a psychological fact that people often do not want to reveal their true natures, to unfold what is in the deepest recesses of their minds, while they apparently wish others to believe that they are hale and hearty and free from worries and tribulations.

......

It is not only the five aggregates that are impermanent, unsatisfactory and without a self, but the causes and conditions that produce the aggregates are also impermanent, unsatisfactory and without a self. This point the Buddha makes very clear:

“Material form, feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness, monks, are impermanent; whatever causes and conditions there are for the arising of these aggregates, they too are impermanent. How, monks, could aggregates arising from what is impermanent, be permanent?

“Material form… and consciousness, monks, are unsatisfactory; whatever causes and conditions there are for the arising of these aggregates, they too are unsatisfactory. How, monks, could aggregates arising from what is unsatisfactory be pleasant and pleasurable?

“Material form… and consciousness, monks, are without a self (anattā); whatever causes and conditions there are for the arising of these aggregates, they too are without a self. How, monks, could aggregates arising from what is without a self be self (attā)?
“The instructed noble disciple (sutavā ariyasāvako), monks, seeing thus becomes dispassionate towards material form, feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness. Through dispassion he is detached, through detachment he is liberated; in liberation the knowledge comes to be that he is liberated, and he understands: ‘Destroyed is birth, lived is the life of purity (literally, “noble life”), done is what was to be done, there is no more of this to come (meaning that there is no more continuity of the aggregates, that is, no more becoming or rebirth).’” By the ceasing of ignorance, by the arising of knowledge, by the cessation of craving, there is thus no more becoming, no more rebirth. It is always when we fail to see the true nature of things that our views become clouded; because of our preconceived notions, our greed and aversion, our likes and dislikes, we fail to see the sense organs and sense objects in their respective and objective natures, and go after mirages and deceptions. The sense organs delude and mislead us and then we fail to see things in their true light, so that our way of seeing things becomes perverted (viparīta-dassana).

The Buddha speaks of three kinds of illusion (vipallāsa, Skt. viparyāsa) that grip man’s mind, namely, the illusions of perception, thought and view.32 Now when a man is caught up in these illusions, he perceives, thinks and views incorrectly: he perceives (a) permanence in the impermanent; (b) satisfactoriness in the unsatisfactory (ease and happiness in suffering); (c) self in what is not self (a soul in the soulless); (d) beauty in the repulsive.

He thinks and views in the same erroneous manner. Thus each illusion works in four ways and leads man astray, clouds his vision, and confuses him. This is due to unwise reflections, to unsystematic attention (ayoniso-manasikāra). Right understanding alone removes these illusions and helps man to cognize the real nature that underlies all appearance. It is only when man comes out of this cloud of illusions and perversions that he shines with true wisdom like the full moon that emerges brilliant from behind a black cloud.
THE BUDDHA’S ANCIENT PATH by Venerable Piyadassi Thera :anjali:
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
zan
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Where might I find the most robust defense of the Visuddhimagga position on lack of doer, etc. in conventional langu

Post by zan »

Ontheway wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 2:39 pm
The Buddha was discriminative and analytical to the highest degree (vibhajjavādi). As a scientist resolves a limb into tissues and the tissues into cells, he analysed all component and conditioned things into their fundamental elements, right down to their ultimates, and condemned shallow thinking, unsystematic attention, which tends to make man muddle-headed and hinders the investigation of the true nature of things. It is through right understanding that one sees cause and effect, the arising and ceasing of all conditioned things. The truth of the Dhamma can only be grasped in that way, and not through blind belief, wrong view, speculation or even by abstract philosophy.

The Buddha says: “This Dhamma is for the wise and not for the unwise,” and explains the ways and means of attaining wisdom by stages, and avoiding false views. Right understanding permeates the entire teaching, pervades every part and aspect of the Dhamma and functions as the keynote of Buddhism.

What then is right understanding? It is the understanding of dukkha or the unsatisfactory nature of all phenomenal existence, its arising, its cessation and the path leading to its cessation. Thus, ignorance of the real nature of life is primarily ignorance of the Four Noble Truths. It is because of their ignorance of these truths that beings are tethered to becoming and are born again and again. Hear these words of the Buddha: “Monks, it is through not understanding, not penetrating the Four Noble Truths that we have run so long, wandered so long in samsāra, in this cycle of continuity, both you and I …. But when these Four Noble Truths are understood and penetrated, rooted out is the craving for existence, destroyed is that which leads to renewed becoming, and there is no more coming to be.” In his first proclamation of the Dhamma, addressing the five ascetics, the Buddha says: “So long as my knowledge and vision of reality regarding these Four Noble Truths, in three phases and twelve aspects was not fully clear to me, I did not claim to have attained incomparable supreme enlightenment in the world. But when my knowledge and vision of reality regarding these Four Noble Truths was clear to me, then I claimed to have won incomparable supreme enlightenment in this world.” These words clearly indicate that right understanding in the highest sense is comprehension of the Four Noble Truths. To grasp these truths is to understand the intricacies of nature. “A person who fully understands these truths is truly called ‘intuitively wise’.’”

Now, right understanding is of two kinds, mundane and supramundane. An ordinary worldling’s knowledge of the efficacy of moral causation or of actions and their results (kamma, and kammavipāka) and the knowledge that accords with the Four Noble Truths (saccānulomikañāna) is called mundane (lokiya) right understanding. It is mundane because the understanding is not yet free from taints. This may be called “knowing accordingly” (anubodha). But right understanding experienced at the moment of attaining one or the other of the four stages of realization is called supramundane (lokuttara) right understanding. This is what is known as “penetration” (pativedha).

Thus, there is right understanding cultivated by the worldling (puthujjana) and by the Noble Ones (Ariyas). It is at the higher level that right understanding, in conjunction with the remaining seven factors, reaches consummation.

Due to lack of right understanding, the ordinary man is blind to the true nature of life and fails to see the universal fact of life, dukkha, unsatisfactoriness. He does not even try to grasp these facts but hastily considers the doctrine as pessimism. It is natural, perhaps, for beings engrossed in mundane pleasures, beings who crave more and more for gratification of the senses and loathe pain, to resent the very idea of suffering and turn their backs on it.

They do not, however, realize that even as they condemn the idea of dukkha and adhere to their own convenient and optimistic view of things, they are still being oppressed by the ever-recurring unsatisfactory nature of life.

It is a psychological fact that people often do not want to reveal their true natures, to unfold what is in the deepest recesses of their minds, while they apparently wish others to believe that they are hale and hearty and free from worries and tribulations.

......

It is not only the five aggregates that are impermanent, unsatisfactory and without a self, but the causes and conditions that produce the aggregates are also impermanent, unsatisfactory and without a self. This point the Buddha makes very clear:

“Material form, feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness, monks, are impermanent; whatever causes and conditions there are for the arising of these aggregates, they too are impermanent. How, monks, could aggregates arising from what is impermanent, be permanent?

“Material form… and consciousness, monks, are unsatisfactory; whatever causes and conditions there are for the arising of these aggregates, they too are unsatisfactory. How, monks, could aggregates arising from what is unsatisfactory be pleasant and pleasurable?

“Material form… and consciousness, monks, are without a self (anattā); whatever causes and conditions there are for the arising of these aggregates, they too are without a self. How, monks, could aggregates arising from what is without a self be self (attā)?
“The instructed noble disciple (sutavā ariyasāvako), monks, seeing thus becomes dispassionate towards material form, feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness. Through dispassion he is detached, through detachment he is liberated; in liberation the knowledge comes to be that he is liberated, and he understands: ‘Destroyed is birth, lived is the life of purity (literally, “noble life”), done is what was to be done, there is no more of this to come (meaning that there is no more continuity of the aggregates, that is, no more becoming or rebirth).’” By the ceasing of ignorance, by the arising of knowledge, by the cessation of craving, there is thus no more becoming, no more rebirth. It is always when we fail to see the true nature of things that our views become clouded; because of our preconceived notions, our greed and aversion, our likes and dislikes, we fail to see the sense organs and sense objects in their respective and objective natures, and go after mirages and deceptions. The sense organs delude and mislead us and then we fail to see things in their true light, so that our way of seeing things becomes perverted (viparīta-dassana).

The Buddha speaks of three kinds of illusion (vipallāsa, Skt. viparyāsa) that grip man’s mind, namely, the illusions of perception, thought and view.32 Now when a man is caught up in these illusions, he perceives, thinks and views incorrectly: he perceives (a) permanence in the impermanent; (b) satisfactoriness in the unsatisfactory (ease and happiness in suffering); (c) self in what is not self (a soul in the soulless); (d) beauty in the repulsive.

He thinks and views in the same erroneous manner. Thus each illusion works in four ways and leads man astray, clouds his vision, and confuses him. This is due to unwise reflections, to unsystematic attention (ayoniso-manasikāra). Right understanding alone removes these illusions and helps man to cognize the real nature that underlies all appearance. It is only when man comes out of this cloud of illusions and perversions that he shines with true wisdom like the full moon that emerges brilliant from behind a black cloud.
THE BUDDHA’S ANCIENT PATH by Venerable Piyadassi Thera :anjali:

:goodpost:
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
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Eko Care
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Re: Where might I find the most robust defense of the Visuddhimagga position on lack of doer, etc. in conventional langu

Post by Eko Care »

auto wrote:
sn22.79 wrote: And why do you call it feeling?
Kiñca, bhikkhave, vedanaṁ vadetha?
It feels; that’s why it’s called ‘feeling’.
Vedayatīti kho, bhikkhave, tasmā ‘vedanā’ti vuccati.
And what does it feel?
Kiñca vedayati?
It feels pleasure, pain, and neutral.
Sukhampi vedayati, dukkhampi vedayati, adukkhamasukhampi vedayati.
It feels; that’s why it’s called ‘feeling’.
Vedayatīti kho, bhikkhave, tasmā ‘vedanā’ti vuccati.
but that is not compatible with what is thought here,
an3.61 wrote:Contact is a condition for feeling.
It’s for one who feels that I declare: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’.
Do you think buddha said it to the feeling khandha?
It is important to remember there is "Panna-cetasika (wisdom-cetasika)" in Sankhara-khanda.
auto
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Re: Where might I find the most robust defense of the Visuddhimagga position on lack of doer, etc. in conventional langu

Post by auto »

Eko Care wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:00 pm It is important to remember there is "Panna-cetasika (wisdom-cetasika)" in Sankhara-khanda.
Do you mean the abhicetana? higher mind what experiences jhana?
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Eko Care
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Re: Where might I find the most robust defense of the Visuddhimagga position on lack of doer, etc. in conventional langu

Post by Eko Care »

auto wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:54 pm
Eko Care wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:00 pm It is important to remember there is "Panna-cetasika (wisdom-cetasika)" in Sankhara-khanda.
Do you mean the abhicetana? higher mind what experiences jhana?
Sankhara-khanda has 50 cetasikas (mental-factors) out of 52 cetasikas.
Other 2 are vedana and sanna which are also khandas.

There are kusala-cetasikas, akusala-cetasikas and universal-cetasikas.

Saddha, sati, panna ..etc are kusala-cetasikas.

The cetasikas of jhana-minds are clearly stated in Abhidhamatthasangaha.
(eg: vitakka, vicara, piti ..etc)
auto
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Re: Where might I find the most robust defense of the Visuddhimagga position on lack of doer, etc. in conventional langu

Post by auto »

Eko Care wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:49 am
auto wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:54 pm
Eko Care wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:00 pm It is important to remember there is "Panna-cetasika (wisdom-cetasika)" in Sankhara-khanda.
Do you mean the abhicetana? higher mind what experiences jhana?
Sankhara-khanda has 50 cetasikas (mental-factors) out of 52 cetasikas.
Other 2 are vedana and sanna which are also khandas.

There are kusala-cetasikas, akusala-cetasikas and universal-cetasikas.

Saddha, sati, panna ..etc are kusala-cetasikas.

The cetasikas of jhana-minds are clearly stated in Abhidhamatthasangaha.
(eg: vitakka, vicara, piti ..etc)
what i meant is ābhicetasikānaṁ. I wrongly called it abhicetana.
https://suttacentral.net/an10.8/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:they don’t get the four absorptions—blissful meditations in the present life that belong to the higher mind—when they want, without trouble or difficulty …
āraññiko ca pantasenāsano, no ca catunnaṁ jhānānaṁ ābhicetasikānaṁ diṭṭhadhammasukhavihārānaṁ nikāmalābhī hoti akicchalābhī akasiralābhī …
you can read that there is someone attaining or not attaining jhana, which belongs to the abhicetasika. That makes the thinking that the cetasika experiencing itself, a doubble stretch.
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/a/abhicetasika/ wrote:PTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary

Abhicetasika,(adj.) [abhi + ceto + ika] dependent on the clearest consciousness. On the spelling see ābhic° (of jhāna) M.I,33,356; III,11; S.II,278; A.II,23; V,132. (Spelt. ābhi° at M.I,33; A.III,114; Vin.V,136). See Dial. III,108. (Page 62)
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Eko Care
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Re: Where might I find the most robust defense of the Visuddhimagga position on lack of doer, etc. in conventional langu

Post by Eko Care »

auto wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:40 pm what i meant is ābhicetasikānaṁ. I wrongly called it abhicetana.
The word "ābhicetasikānaṁ" is defined as non-sensual minds.
Sampasādanīyasutta Aṭṭhakatā:
ābhicetasikānanti abhicetasikānaṃ, kāmāvacaracittāni atikkamitvā ṭhitānanti attho.
"ābhicetasikānaṁ" means higher-minds, that have surpassed the sensual-minds.
The word cetasika generally means "belonging to mind" , "of mind", "on mind".

In the Abhidhamma, it has a reserved meaning as mental factors. (52 cetasikas)

There are many words like this which are defined properly in Abhidhamma.

Eg: hetu : generally means cause, but in abhidhamma "root cause". (6 hetus as lobha-dosa-moha-alobha-adosa-amoha)
Cetasika Pu,na Ceta+ṇika

Buddhadatta: Cetasika (adj.) mental; (nt.), a mental property.

Nyanatiloka Cetasika 'mental things, mental factors', are those mental concomitants which are bound up with the simultaneously arising consciousness (citta = viññāṇa) and conditioned by its presence. Whereas in the Suttas all phenomena of existence are summed up under the aspect of 5 groups: corporeality, feeling, perception, mental formations, consciousness (s. khandha), the Abhidhamma as a rule treats them under the more philosophical 3 aspects: consciousness, mental factors and corporeality (citta, cetasika, rūpa). Thus, of these 3 aspects, the mental factors (cetasika) comprise feeling, perception and the 50 mental formations, altogether 52 mental concomitants. Of these, 25 are lofty qualities (either kammically wholesome or neutral), 14 kammically unwholesome, while 13 are as such kammically neutral, their kammical quality depending on whether they are associated with wholesome, unwholesome or neutral consciousness. For details s. Tab. II, III. Cf. prec. (App. )

Nyanatiloka Cetasika This term occurs often in the old sutta texts, but only as adj. (e.g. cetasikaṃ sukhaṃ, etc.) or, at times, used as a sing. neut. noun (e.g. D. 1; p. 213, PTS). As a designation for mental factors, or concomitants of consciousness (citta-saṃpayuttā dhammā), it is frequently met with in Dhs. (§ 1189, 1512) as cetasika-dhamma, while in Vis.M., Abh. S., etc., cetasika is used also as a neuter noun, in the sense of mental phenomenon.

PTS Cetasika (adj.) belonging to ceto, mental (opp. kāyika physical). Kāyikaṁ sukhaṁ > cetasikaṁ s. A i.81; S v. 209; kāyikā darathā > c. d. M iii.287, 288; c. duk khaṁ D ii 306; A i.157; c. roga J iii.337. c. kamma is sīla 8 -- 10 (see under cetanā) Nett 43. -- As n combd with citta it is to be taken as supplementing it, viz. mind & all that belongs to it, mind and mental properties, adjuncts, co -- efficients (cp. vitakka -- vicāra sach cpds. as phalâphala, bhavâbhava) D ;i.213; see also citta. Occurring in the Nikāyas in sg. only, it came to be used in pl. and, as an ultimate category, the 52 cetasikas, with citta as bare consciousness, practically superseded in mental analysis, the 5 khandha -- category See Cpd. p. 1 and pt. II. Mrs. Rh. D., Bud. Psy. 6 148, 175. -- ˚cetasikā dhammā Ps i.84; Vbh 421; Dhs 3 18, etc. (cp. Dhs. trsl. pp. 6, 148).
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Re: Where might I find the most robust defense of the Visuddhimagga position on lack of doer, etc. in conventional langu

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Eko Care wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:12 pm ..
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