🟧 Nivesakasutta, AN 3.75 (Week of 2/20/22)

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SDC
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🟧 Nivesakasutta, AN 3.75 (Week of 2/20/22)

Post by SDC »

:reading:


Hidden within AN 3.75 is an astounding, abrupt and clear description of the safety for those who have gained experiential confidence in the triple gem: the sotāpanna (or higher) who is free from wandering on to the lower realms. This declaration is brought forth through a description of change of elements, and how there is an aspect of the noble disciple that "never changes". A great compliment to any elemental contemplation, and a scorcher for development of faith.

Enjoy. :smile:
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📍 Nivesakasutta, AN 3.75 (Week of 2/20/22)

Post by SDC »

:reading:



Aṅguttara Nikāya
Nivesakasutta (Support) AN 3.75 (PTS 1.223)
Translated by Ven. Sujato


  • Then Venerable Ānanda went up to the Buddha, bowed, and sat down to one side. The Buddha said to him:

    “Ānanda, those who you have sympathy for, and those worth listening to—friends and colleagues, relatives and family—should be encouraged, supported, and established in three things. What three?

    Experiential confidence in the Buddha: ‘That Blessed One is perfected, a fully awakened Buddha, accomplished in knowledge and conduct, holy, knower of the world, supreme guide for those who wish to train, teacher of gods and humans, awakened, blessed.’

    Experiential confidence in the teaching: ‘The teaching is well explained by the Buddha—visible in this very life, immediately effective, inviting inspection, relevant, so that sensible people can know it for themselves.’

    Experiential confidence in the Saṅgha: ‘The Saṅgha of the Buddha’s disciples is practicing the way that’s good, direct, methodical, and proper. It consists of the four pairs, the eight individuals. This is the Saṅgha of the Buddha’s disciples that is worthy of offerings dedicated to the gods, worthy of hospitality, worthy of a religious donation, worthy of greeting with joined palms, and is the supreme field of merit for the world.’

    There might be change in the four primary elements—earth, water, air, and fire—but a noble disciple with experiential confidence in the Buddha would never change. In this context, ‘change’ means that such a noble disciple will be reborn in hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm: this is not possible.

    There might be change in the four primary elements—earth, water, air, and fire—but a noble disciple with experiential confidence in the teaching … or the Saṅgha would never change. In this context, ‘change’ means that such a noble disciple will be reborn in hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm: this is not possible.

    Those who you have sympathy for, and those worth listening to—friends and colleagues, relatives and family—should be encouraged, supported, and established in these three things.”
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SDC
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📍 Nivesakasutta, AN 3.75 (Week of 2/20/22)

Post by SDC »

📚

Thoughts?

  • Is this "change in the four primary elements" essentially any change whatsoever? From loss of objects, to a loved one and up to and including the breakup of the body, death?
  • What about this description of the Saṅgha: ‘The Saṅgha of the Buddha’s disciples is practicing the way that’s good, direct, methodical, and proper. It consists of the four pairs, the eight individuals. This is the Saṅgha of the Buddha’s disciples that is worthy of offerings dedicated to the gods, worthy of hospitality, worthy of a religious donation, worthy of greeting with joined palms, and is the supreme field of merit for the world.
    • This idea of the Saṅgha being "supreme field of merit" is fascinating. Does this mean that offerings to the Noble Saṅgha are the most supreme?
  • Ven. Bodhi translates the opening as: "Ānanda, those for whom you have compassion and who think you should be heeded, whether friends or companions, relatives or family members, should be encouraged, settled and established in three things. What three?"
    • Seems to me that this is saying that both compassion towards the person and their receptiveness our words are necessary to bring them to the Dhamma. What are the implications here? Would this exclude those who are not receptive, i.e. those who do not think we should be listened to?

      Was Ānanda at least a sotāpanna here? Likely, right? MN 8: “Cunda, that one who is himself sinking in the mud should pull out another who is sinking in the mud is impossible; that one who is not himself sinking in the mud should pull out another who is sinking in the mud is possible. That one who is himself untamed, undisciplined, with defilements unextinguished, should tame another, discipline him, and help extinguish his defilements is impossible; that one who is himself tamed, disciplined, with defilements extinguished, should tame another, discipline him, and help extinguish his defilements is possible."

      Would it make sense to say that those who are not sotāpanna should take care not to push the encouragement/settling/establishment of others to far? How much is too much when we have compassion towards another who we think is able to make use of the Dhamma if we have yet to gain experiential confidence ourselves?

Looking forward to the discussion. :smile:
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mikenz66
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Re: 📍 Nivesakasutta, AN 3.75 (Week of 2/20/22)

Post by mikenz66 »

The heart of the sutta is the standard passage:
"‘Itipi so bhagavā arahaṁ sammāsambuddho vijjācaraṇasampanno sugato lokavidū anuttaro purisadammasārathi satthā devamanussānaṁ, buddho bhagavā’ti, ..."

In this sutta the focus is "experiential confidence". The more common sutta, which is in all of the chanting books, that contains those descriptions is "The crest of the standard" SN11.3 https://suttacentral.net/sn11.3/, where the focus is on overcoming fear.

:heart:
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Re: 📍 Nivesakasutta, AN 3.75 (Week of 2/20/22)

Post by Joe.c »

SDC wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 1:55 am
  • Is this "change in the four primary elements" essentially any change whatsoever? From loss of objects, to a loved one and up to and including the breakup of the body, death?
Try to combine/correlate with these following sutta, then your knowledge will become more complete. One who enter the stream will have unshakable faith in Buddha, Dhamma, Ariya sangha, and perfected ariya morality. Their faith & noble knowledge will only grow over time, when one has completely aligned their life experience with Buddha experience & other nobles.

Sn 48.42
“In the same way, the brahmin Uṇṇābha’s faith in the Realized One is settled, rooted, and planted deep. It’s strong and can’t be shifted by any ascetic or brahmin or god or Māra or Brahmā or by anyone in the world.
MN56
Then Upāli saw, attained, understood, and fathomed the Dhamma. He went beyond doubt, got rid of indecision, and became self-assured and independent of others regarding the Teacher’s instructions.
DN 6:
He teaches Dhamma that’s good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end, meaningful and well-phrased. And he reveals a spiritual practice that’s entirely full and pure.
Also, this story on SN 7.1 when the lay follower tripped, instead of reacting angrily, she became cool with the situation by remembering Buddha.
Now at that time a certain brahmin lady of the Bhāradvāja clan named Dhanañjānī was devoted to the Buddha, the teaching, and the Saṅgha. Once, while she was bringing her husband his meal she tripped and expressed this heartfelt sentiment three times:

“Homage to that Blessed One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha!
Homage to that Blessed One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha!
Homage to that Blessed One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha!”

When she said this, the brahmin said to Dhanañjānī:

“That’d be right. For the slightest thing this lowlife woman spouts out praise for that bald ascetic.

Right now, lowlife woman, I’m going to refute your teacher’s doctrine!”

“Brahmin, I don’t see anyone in this world—with its gods, Māras, and Brahmās, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its gods and humans—who can refute the doctrine of the Blessed One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha. 5.5But anyway, you should go. When you’ve gone you’ll understand.”

Then the brahmin of the Bhāradvāja clan, angry and upset, went to the Buddha …
Also look at MN 48 about 7 factors for realization of stream entry fruits.
When a noble disciple has these seven factors, they have properly investigated their own nature with respect to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry.
Finally, Buddha described his teaching in DN 9 for all his noble devotees:
Corrupting qualities will be given up and cleansing qualities will grow. One will enter and remain in the fullness and abundance of wisdom, having realized it with one’s own insight in this very life. And there will be only joy and happiness, tranquility, mindfulness and awareness. Such a life is blissful.
So, when one practice true dhamma, their life will be only happiness and lot of wisdom to handle any issues that arise in their life. Little to no suffering at all as described on SN 55.1 even better the wheel turning King.
Now suppose a noble disciple wears rags and feeds on scraps of almsfood. Still, as they have four things, they’re exempt from hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. They’re exempt from places of loss, bad places, the underworld.
Hope this help.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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Re: 📍 Nivesakasutta, AN 3.75 (Week of 2/20/22)

Post by Joe.c »

"‘Itipi so bhagavā arahaṁ sammāsambuddho vijjācaraṇasampanno sugato lokavidū anuttaro purisadammasārathi satthā devamanussānaṁ, buddho bhagavā’ti, ..."
If one can know or understand this sentence, he/she has become stream enterer. Because one can see the whole Buddha teaching (DO, 4NT, N8FP, etc) in this statement. 😁

Alas, rarely we have seen this in this world. People blindly chant only.
There might be change in the four primary elements—earth, water, air, and fire
Just to simplify my previous explanation. There will be a change in this world or worldly knowledge such as you can see the technology transformation from big computer, small desktop, laptop, tablet, smatphone, etc (more in future), but the confidence of stream enterer about triple gems can not be shaken by all this worldly change. They will strive to the end of the world.

But, the problem of all this is explained in this one of the Sutta of SN 2.6:
At Sāvatthi. While standing to one side, the young deva Kāmada said to the Blessed One, “Hard to do, Blessed one! So hard to do, Blessed One!”

"They do even what is hard to do, Kāmada,” said the Blessed One,
“The trainees with virtue and unification of mind (samadhi),
“Self-stabilized and committed to homelessness,
“For it is contentment that brings pleasure.”

“It is so hard to get, Blessed One – contentment!”

“They get even what is hard to get, Kāmada,” said the Blessed One,
“Those who enjoy a peaceful mind,
“Those who, by day and by night,
“Enjoy developing the mind.”

“It is so hard to unify, Blessed One – the mind!”

“They unify even what is hard to unify, Kāmada,” said the Blessed One,
“Those who enjoy peaceful faculties,
“The noble ones proceed
“Having severed the net of mortality, Kāmada.”

“It is so hard to follow, Blessed One – the rough path.”

“Even though the path is rough,
“The noble ones follow it, Kāmada.
“Those who are not noble fall face down on the rough path,
“But for the noble ones the path is smooth,
“For the noble are smooth amidst the rough.”
Therefore, need to find one who has reached the peak or close to it. He/she can provide the ultimate guidance. 🙂
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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nirodh27
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Re: 📍 Nivesakasutta, AN 3.75 (Week of 2/20/22)

Post by nirodh27 »

No matter how the world changes, since one has understood dependent origination (especially in regard to Dukkha) one cannot unsee that Dukkha is created by attachment/acquisition/identification and have the possibility of renunciation. That is an assurance that one cannot go into the most fearful and painful depths of suffering without having sati (recollection of the teachings and DO) not intervening remembering that there's a choice, an intention that can be there or can be stopped. If this is valid for an imagined afterlife, this have to be even more true for the lifespan that goes from sotapatti to the death of the body. The mind cannot precipitate in hells like fear of prospects of old-age and death and in things that clearly damage and entrap (and will afflict) yourself in the long run.

To me that points to the difference that boils from the internal "I'm suffering", that pressupposes a Sakkayaditthi and a self that is constant (and so it cannot stop suffering if something changes for the worse for him) to the internal "there's suffering (because of attachment)" that instead gives you freedom, space to renounce the conditions of suffering, accepting the way it is for the four elements and that gives you space to consider the five skhanda as alien, as empty, as not-you.
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Re: 📍 Nivesakasutta, AN 3.75 (Week of 2/20/22)

Post by SDC »

mikenz66 wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 4:55 am ...
Thanks, Mike!
nirodh27 wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 9:10 am To me that points to the difference that boils from the internal "I'm suffering", that pressupposes a Sakkayaditthi and a self that is constant (and so it cannot stop suffering if something changes for the worse for him) to the internal "there's suffering (because of attachment)" that instead gives you freedom, space to renounce the conditions of suffering, accepting the way it is for the four elements and that gives you space to consider the five skhanda as alien, as empty, as not-you.
That "space" is key.
Joe.c wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 3:00 am ...
Great contribution, Joe. Many thanks!
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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