Military draft

[anagaarika]

Continuing the discussion from my previous thread on the Buddhist view on possible armed resistance in war situations (viewtopic.php?f=13&t=42482), I would like now to focus more on the practical side of the issue.

For many of you, this is just a textbook situation with no real consequences. I am glad for every Buddhist who is in this comfortable position. However, for me the prospect of being drafted by the government, though hopefully still relatively unlikely, is now not as unthinkable as it was just a few weeks ago. If the conflict in Eastern Europe spreads further (in other words, if Ukraine falls and if Putin is crazy enough to invade other countries), it could be that I will be asked to take a weapon and go kill other people.

I´ll try to keep it simple - what would you do in this scenario? Do you try to leave the country, leaving all your relatives in this desperate situation? Do you obey the command but let yourself shoot in the battle without trying to shoot your enemy? Do you rather go to jail? Do you commit suicide to avoid some excrutiating dilemmas that could occur? Or do you actually fight, doing your very best not to succumb to anger and hatred?

For those of you who would argue that holding the notion of "I" and "my country" and so on is wrong and will surely lead me to hell - you can trust me that I certainly don´t hold a very strong notion of either of these. Yet this configuration of the five aggregates, that is on the conventional level of truth called "me", could now get into this highly troublesome situation and specific action is required. In other words, serious decisions could have to be made even without my active attempt at appropriating them and holding them as "mine"...

[DNS]

That would be a difficult situation. Perhaps the draftee could ask for a non-lethal assignment? I heard many years ago, that for every soldier who carries a gun and shoots at the enemy, there are about 7 other military personnel who never even pick up a gun. They work behind the scenes, for example those who work in dining halls, supplies, procurement, accounting, medics, nurses, etc.

People often assume that soldiers are experts at gun shooting, marksmanship, that they own several guns, etc. The reality is many soldiers don't even own a personal gun. You are more likely to find that level of expertise about guns among law enforcement, the police than in military personnel.

[anagaarika]

That would be a difficult situation. Perhaps the draftee could ask for a non-lethal assignment? I heard many years ago, that for every soldier who carries a gun and shoots at the enemy, there are about 7 other military personnel who never even pick up a gun. They work behind the scenes, for example those who work in dining halls, supplies, procurement, accounting, medics, nurses, etc.

That would be a good solution, because it wouldn´t involve direct killing AND it wouldn´t be a cowardly decision. I want to avoid both of these disasters, if possible. I simply don´t believe that the law of kamma should be viewed in a quasi-alibistic way. I couldn´t live the rest of my life knowing that I fled the country in my 20s, whereas my dad in his late 50s had to fight instead of me...

At the same time, however, I´m not so sure that your proposed solution would be feasible under current circumstances in Kijev, for instance. I´ve read that civilians are simply given weapons and asked to defend the city using firearms. The situation is really tense there.

[Ceisiwr]

I'd try to get my family out and me along with them. If the situation is like Ukraine, where men between 18-60 cannot now leave, then I would get my family out and then return home or somewhere safe and try to weather the storm, mindfully.

[Sam Vara]

I´ll try to keep it simple - what would you do in this scenario? Do you try to leave the country, leaving all your relatives in this desperate situation? Do you obey the command but let yourself shoot in the battle without trying to shoot your enemy? Do you rather go to jail? Do you commit suicide to avoid some excrutiating dilemmas that could occur? Or do you actually fight, doing your very best not to succumb to anger and hatred?

You could try behaving so incompetently that no army would trust you with a weapon, and sit the conflict out such that you only had yourself and your family to take care of. I guess that's technically breaking the fourth precept, but it's better than the other outcomes you list.

Let's all hope that you never have to be put in this situation.

[Jack19990101]

First precept doesn't need to be further justified neither by kamma, nor purpose, as it is a decision made by Buddha for us.
I do think -
It is only reasonable to contemplate there are situations it is beyond our capacity to observe it. Just think of all those white lies we have to tell in order to get through a phone call from mom.

In dire situations, event just occurs like a flash, our capacity to make a decision is offline until it is long over. Kammic propensity takes care business. For those situations, there is really not much one can discuss.
If this is the case, just reflect it as it was, instead of obsessed in thinking one purposely breaks precept.

This case tells us that how dangerous our kamma tendency is. It can drive us to kill.

Yet, It is pretty obviously a rather questionable decision if one can't tolerate the feeling of oncoming guilt, one contemplates the possibility to drop Sila.

Each of us will have to make that decision on our own. We will know what our heart's refuge is, at this moment.

[TRobinson465]

Unfortunately, the real world haunted by mara and the defilements of corrupt and greedy autocrats is impossible to navigate on a strictly Buddhist basis. Buddhism wasnt meant to be like sharia law where you run ur country on it, its a set of instructions for individuals to personally undertake. If duty calls, you have to decide what to do. if you feel bad about running away or capitulating while ur countrymen die for you, the best you can do is ask for a non-lethal support role in the war effort. which is indeed important. Even ultra-militarized countries like N Korea and the former Soviet Union cannot have all of its citizens be an active fighting force, they have to have people working the supply lines and delivering or producing supplies for the fighters. And even then, ultra militarized countries like N Korea and USSR have generally stagnated quite a bit in both their national and military development, due to expending so much resources on thier military rather than infrastructure. So dont undersestimate the importance of the ppl who work behind the front lines.

[santa100]

I´ll try to keep it simple - what would you do in this scenario? Do you try to leave the country, leaving all your relatives in this desperate situation? Do you obey the command but let yourself shoot in the battle without trying to shoot your enemy? Do you rather go to jail? Do you commit suicide to avoid some excrutiating dilemmas that could occur? Or do you actually fight, doing your very best not to succumb to anger and hatred?

Try to be really good at your current profession right now. Say if you're really good in healthcare field, there're plenty of needs for highly skilled medics/nurses/doctors during war time. If you're really good in IT/STEM fields, there're plenty of needs for intelligence/logistics/data-communication analysts in the army. Similarly for various other skillsets: musician, chef, technical ground crew, etc. It's because when war breaks out, the army simply doesn't have the time and resources to provide trainnings for those specialties. So if you're already really good at your current trade, they'll naturally pick you over others to serve in those various non-combat, but very important roles. That way, you can still serve your country and avoid any heavy Kammic toll. In the worst case scenario where you have no choice but being put into a direct combat role, do practice diligently to improve your shooting skill. With most semi/full-automatic rifles nowadays, there's a much greater chance you'll kill someone with your rudimentary shooting skill than if you have excellent marksmanship. For with good shooting skill, you can target a specific non-lethal area on the body and hit it with precision. Otherwise, if resorting to "spray and pray" mode, there'll be some bullet that will land on the opponent's heart, brain, neck, etc... and that wouldn't be good. Lastly, check out "Hacksaw Ridge", a 2016 biographical war film based on a true story. An excellent film that directly relates to the current topic being discussed.

[Ontheway]

You make the decision. Once you make the decision, you will need to have bravery to bear the consequence.

The Buddha is mere a Teacher and showed us what is the consequence of our deeds. We are the ones that making the decision.

[cappuccino]

it could be that I will be asked to take a weapon and go kill other people.

I´ll try to keep it simple - what would you do in this scenario?

become a (meditating) statue


which has no views about anything and does not act


but is perfectly peaceful

[anagaarika]

become a (meditating) statue


which has no views about anything and does not act


but is perfectly peaceful

Could you please elaborate? Your advice sounds a bit cryptic.

[SarathW]

Can't you escape by saying that killing is against your religion?
In my opinion military, daft is the most uncivilised nature of humans.

[cappuccino]

Could you please elaborate? Your advice sounds a bit cryptic.

learn from a statue


in terms of views, it has none


not caught up in drama

[Alino]

Historians say that in each war there is a % of soldiers who consciously miss their enemies in order to not kill.

[santa100]

Or in worst case, aim at non-lethal areas if one's shooting skill is good enough. As the saying goes, if you kill 1 enemy combatant, you've taken 1 man out of the battle. If you wound an enemy combatant, you've taken at least 3 out of the battle.