Questions/Comments on the Teachings of Waharaka Thero.

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Lal
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Questions/Comments on the Teachings of Waharaka Thero.

Post by Lal »

I just started a new series of posts on "Elephant in the Room" – Direct Translation of the Tipiṭaka" on the thread "The teachings of Ven. Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara Thero."

I want to go through the critical introduction on that thread without being distracted. If any errors/additions are needed (based on discussions here), I can post them on the above thread. Then we will be able to see how it evolves.

Any comments/questions on my earlier posts can be posted here as well. I will respond to meaningful comments/questions.
auto
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Re: Questions/Comments on the Teachings of Waharaka Thero.

Post by auto »

Lal wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 2:08 pm - Buddhaghosa’s introduction of Hindu meditation techniques in his Commentary Visuddhimagga, 1500 years ago.
are these techniques wrong?

this description is brilliant, and is based on patisambhidamagga, if i am not wrong.
visuddhimagga pdf200 wrote:115. Firstly, in a cycle [of consciousness] in which absorption arises the mind
becomes purified from the group of defilements called hindrances that are an
obstruction to jhána. Being devoid of obstruction because it has been purified, it
makes way for the central [state of equilibrium, which is the] sign of serenity.
Now, it is the absorption concentration itself occurring evenly that is called
the sign of serenity. But the consciousness immediately before that [149] reaches
that state by way of change in a single continuity (cf. XXII.1–6), and so it is
said that it makes way for the central [state of equilibrium, which is the] sign of
serenity. And it is said that it enters into that state by approaching it through
having made way for it. That is why in the first place purification of the way,
while referring to aspects existing in the preceding consciousness, should
nevertheless be understood as the approach at the moment of the first jhána’s
actual arising.
..
wrote:114. Herein, purification of the way is access together with its concomitants.
Intensification of equanimity is absorption. Satisfaction is reviewing. So some
comment.33 But it is said in the text, “The mind arrived at unity enters into
purification of the way, is intensified in equanimity, and is satisfied by knowledge”
(Paþis I 167), and therefore it is from the standpoint within actual absorption
that purification of the way firstly should be understood as the approach, with
intensification of equanimity as the function of equanimity consisting in specific
neutrality, and satisfaction as the manifestation of clarifying knowledge’s function
in accomplishing non-excess of states. How?
I know it should be about Waharaka, but do you have problems with these type of descriptions or that thing based on the descriptions doesn't occur in buddhadhamma but only when one practices Hindu meditation techniques?
Lal
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Re: Questions/Comments on the Teachings of Waharaka Thero.

Post by Lal »

Let me first address the following comment by auto:
I know it should be about Waharaka, but ...
There is ONE Buddha Dhamma fully contained in the Tipitaka, but there are different interpretations/translations.
- There have been several WRONG interpretations of concepts in the Tipitaka for many hundreds of years.
- Then, recently Wahraka Thero pointed out WHY those are wrong AND also explained the correct interpretations.

I listed a few problems ("elephants in the room") in the recent few posts:
(i) Word-for-translations of keywords without paying attention to the CONTEXT. That likely went on for so long, because neither the translators nor the readers saw the OBVIOUS inconsistencies.
(ii) Interpreting "Ānāpānasati" as "breath meditation".
(iii) Incorrect translation of anicca and anatta as "impermanence" and "no-self."


I will go through each of those "elephants in the room" systematically. I just started on (i) above. To prove my point there, first I need to state the problem clearly, and then explain Paticca Samuppada the correct way. That will take some time. Then I will systematically address the other issues.

Now auto's question about Visuddhimagga is related to issue (ii) above. Visuddhimagga describes "breath meditation."
- Following is a brief explanation. I will explain in much more detail in the coming months.


1. It is possible to get to jhana using breath meditation. Even before the Buddha, yogis attained those anariya jhana using breath meditation.
- In fact, the Bodhisatta (Siddhartha Gotama) learned from two yogis (Alara Kalama and Uddakaramaputta) how to get into jhana using breath meditation. But he saw the uselessness of such anariya jhana, left them, and attained Buddhahood via his own efforts.
- I also need to mention that Devadatta attained not only such anariya jhana but also iddhi powers (supernormal powers). But he lost all those powers and was reborn in an apaya. That is why such techniques are useless.

2. The key issue regarding "Ānāpānasati" is the following.
- Buddhist "Ānāpānasati" is not about the breath. But Visuddhimagga teaches how to do "breath mediation."
- Of course, most translators today translate Tipitaka suttas on Ānāpānasati using the INCORRECT and DIRECT translations of “Assāsa passāsa” as "breathing in and breathing out".

Assāsa passāsa” has TWO meanings:

1. “Breathing in and out”
– That applies to “assāsa passāsā kāya saṅkhārā“, i.e., that is how the mind moves the body in the simplest way.
– That is in the “Cūḷavedalla Sutta (MN 44)“: “Assāsapassāsā kho, āvuso visākha, kāyasaṅkhāro

2. “Assāsa” is to “take in the Noble Path” and “passāsa” is to dispel/reject the “wrong paths” with “wrong views”.
- Of course, this is the CORRECT meaning that pertains to Ānāpānasati meditation.

- See, for example, “Assāsappatta Sutta (SN 38.5)”(https://suttacentral.net/sn38.5/en/suja ... ript=latin) , “Paramas­s­āsa­p­patta Suttta (SN 38.6)” (https://suttacentral.net/sn38.6/en/suja ... ript=latin)
- Those English translations are not that good.

Basically, “Assāsappatto” is someone who has become a Sotapanna Anugami and thus has started “taking in” the Noble Path (First sutta)

Paramassāsappatto” is an Arahant who has completed the Path OR “completed taking in” (Second sutta)
- “patto” is to “someone who got to that stage/level” AND “parama” is “ultimate”

Assāsappatto = Assāsa + patto
Paramassāsappatto = parama + assāsa + patto

The above is a brief explanation of the issue (ii) mentioned above. I will provide more detailed explanations AFTER I finish the issue (i).

However, I have already discussed this issue with "breath meditation" here at DW. See, "Breath Meditation Is Addictive and Harmful in the Long Run" :viewtopic.php?p=497963#p497963 followed by many discussions and more posts that I posted.
auto
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Re: Questions/Comments on the Teachings of Waharaka Thero.

Post by auto »

Lal wrote: Sat Mar 05, 2022 8:13 pm ..
your criteria seem fulfilled in Patisambhidamagga,
wrote:Long in-breaths and out-breaths in these nine aspects are a body. The
foundation is mindfulness. The contemplation is knowledge. The body is the
foundation, but it is not the mindfulness.
..
He contemplates: how does he contemplate that body? He contemplates it as
impermanent, not as permanent; as unsatisfactory, not as satisfactory; as not
self, not as self; he becomes dispassionate, does not delight; he causes greed
to fade away, does not inflame it;
Solace( assāsappatto sn38.5) could be referring to the unification of the mind and non-distraction(through contemplating the body)
wrote:[Exercise of mindfulness and full-awareness]
When he understands unification of mind (ekagga-citta) and non-distraction
(avikkhepa) through long in-breaths and out-breaths, his feelings are
recognized as they arise, recognized as they abide, recognized as they
subside;..
The arising of feeling is recognized in the sense of conditioned arising thus:
with the arising of ignorance there is the arising of feeling...
the six fields of contact are the basis for three feelings: somanassa, domanassa, upekkha.
https://suttacentral.net/sn38.5/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:“When a mendicant truly understands the six fields of contacts’ origin, ending, gratification, drawback, and escape, at that point they’ve gained solace.”
“Yato kho, āvuso, bhikkhu channaṁ phassāyatanānaṁ samudayañca atthaṅgamañca assādañca ādīnavañca nissaraṇañca yathābhūtaṁ pajānāti, ettāvatā kho, āvuso, assāsappatto hotī”ti.
the body is the wind produced by the citta. And i think its called illusory body. Illusory - anatta, not real.
Lal
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Re: Questions/Comments on the Teachings of Waharaka Thero.

Post by Lal »

auto: Those fulfill the WRONG versions of “assāsa passāsa", i.e., 1. “Breathing in and out” above. One cannot get to Nibbāna by "setting the mind on breathing in and out".

The correct, Buddhist "Ānāpānasati" is not about the breath, i.e., 2. “Assāsa” is to “take in the Noble Path” and “passāsa” is to dispel/reject the “wrong paths” with “wrong views”.

Please take time and read carefully.
auto
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Re: Questions/Comments on the Teachings of Waharaka Thero.

Post by auto »

Lal wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 10:44 am auto: Those fulfill the WRONG versions of “assāsa passāsa", i.e., 1. “Breathing in and out” above. One cannot get to Nibbāna by "setting the mind on breathing in and out".

The correct, Buddhist "Ānāpānasati" is not about the breath, i.e., 2. “Assāsa” is to “take in the Noble Path” and “passāsa” is to dispel/reject the “wrong paths” with “wrong views”.

Please take time and read carefully.
i presume you mean passasa is about avoiding dasa akusala and dispelling miccha ditthi.
Lal wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:59 am- Giving up an immoral lifestyle and engaging in moral activities is the basis for getting to Nibbāna, the ultimate "cooling down".
- As one can see the benefits of cooling down, one will avoid actions done with hate, greed, and ignorance. And one will be looking forward to do actions of goodwill, generosity, and with mindfulness.
- Avoiding greed, hate, and ignorance is the same as avoiding dasa akusala.
It seem you think assasa is what savitakka is. It seem according to you the prefix sa is what denotes taking in kusala dhamma.

**I don't get into how off is your idea about breath meditation. How that is even compliant to if anapanasati would be breath meditation? You seem skipping all the explanations given and resort to how average joe with no exposure to texts would start doing breath meditation, basing his know-how on the meaning of breath.
Lal
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Re: Questions/Comments on the Teachings of Waharaka Thero.

Post by Lal »

i presume you mean passasa is about avoiding dasa akusala and dispelling miccha ditthi.
Yes. That is correct.

I cannot give a "quick explanation" regarding the rest of your comments right now. Hopefully, you will understand that after I explain it in detail later on.
- But you may be able to get an idea by referring to my previous post on Anapanasati and the discussion there, as I commented on March 5 above with the following:

"However, I have already discussed this issue with "breath meditation" here at DW. See, "Breath Meditation Is Addictive and Harmful in the Long Run" (viewtopic.php?p=497963#p497963) followed by many discussions and more posts that I posted."
auto
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Re: Questions/Comments on the Teachings of Waharaka Thero.

Post by auto »

Lal wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:59 am- Giving up an immoral lifestyle and engaging in moral activities is the basis for getting to Nibbāna, the ultimate "cooling down".
- As one can see the benefits of cooling down, one will avoid actions done with hate, greed, and ignorance. And one will be looking forward to do actions of goodwill, generosity, and with mindfulness.
- Avoiding greed, hate, and ignorance is the same as avoiding dasa akusala.
actions done with or actions what originate, stem from greed? same is regards to mindfulness, you are using 'with'
It is not mindfulness with breathing it is mindfulness of breathing.
auto
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Re: Questions/Comments on the Teachings of Waharaka Thero.

Post by auto »

Lal wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 4:14 pm I cannot give a "quick explanation" regarding the rest of your comments right now. Hopefully, you will understand that after I explain it in detail later on.
- But you may be able to get an idea by referring to my previous post on Anapanasati and the discussion there, as I commented on March 5 above with the following:

"However, I have already discussed this issue with "breath meditation" here at DW. See, "Breath Meditation Is Addictive and Harmful in the Long Run" (viewtopic.php?p=497963#p497963) followed by many discussions and more posts that I posted."
i know, i take quotes from there. So please don't post another long thing based on watching tv 2 hours, then to focus breath to get temporal relief from suffering caused by too much sensory information. That is not what breath mediation is.
Lal
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Re: Questions/Comments on the Teachings of Waharaka Thero.

Post by Lal »

auto: No one is trying to force these ideas on you. Just don't read those "long posts" if you don't like them. I have no more comments for you.
auto
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Re: Questions/Comments on the Teachings of Waharaka Thero.

Post by auto »

Lal wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 4:39 pm auto: No one is trying to force these ideas on you. Just don't read those "long posts" if you don't like them. I have no more comments for you.
The idea about breath meditation you have is itself wrong. You don't have to put your mind to breath, you could just look out of the window, it is devoid of giving up miccha ditthi too.
The issue there you posit with the kusala akusala etc is something more general than anapanasati not being breath meditation.

More importantly can you post a link to where it is said anapanasati is not about breath, besides yourself?
second more importantly is that you don't read what others tell you, you have made up your mind. Even if to appeal to you, you still act like a dictator.
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Eko Care
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Re: Questions/Comments on the Teachings of Waharaka Thero.

Post by Eko Care »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:48 pm
Dhammanando wrote:Conclusion

The Pure Dhamma website offers a variety of revisionist readings of the Pali Suttas based upon the site-owner’s (or his guru’s) claimed re-discovery of supposed hidden meanings of key Pali terms.

These proposed hidden meanings, when not presented merely as bald assertions, are defended by resort to Pali philological analysis. But since the site-owner is demonstrably incompetent in both Indic philology in general and Pali in particular his arguments are undeserving of credence. Rather than leading to the true understanding of the Dhamma via the revelation of higher (but long-concealed) meanings, they lead only to baloney.
Spot-on (as long as by "baloney" you don't mean "Large smooth-textured smoked sausage of beef and veal and pork.") With that, I will bow out of any further discussion about pure dhamma.net It is just a net of views, a trap for the unwary, and it is too time-consuming to correct every error.

I hope the authors will listen to the two of us and take down this website until they are more qualified to write something that is truly helpful to revive the true Dhamma.
Lal
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Re: Questions/Comments on the Teachings of Waharaka Thero.

Post by Lal »

I have responded to those comments:
viewtopic.php?p=497483#p497483
- You need to keep reading that discussion. You might learn a few things about Buddha Dhamma.

Furthermore, I have pointed out MANY problems with Sutta Central translations. See, for example, "Distortion of Pāli Keywords in Paṭicca Samuppāda" on Nov 28, 2021, on p. 95 :viewtopic.php?p=655847#p655847
- Those problems in their translations should evident to even a child.
- You may want to ask those bhikkhus to respond. No one has responded yet.
- Maybe you can respond. You seem to be making a lot of comments. Have I stated anything wrong?
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Eko Care
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Re: Questions/Comments on the Teachings of Waharaka Thero.

Post by Eko Care »

Lal wrote: I have pointed out MANY problems with Sutta Central translations. See, for example, "Distortion of Pāli Keywords in Paṭicca Samuppāda"
- Those problems in their translations should evident to even a child.
Accusations from a one who is accused of Text-distortion
to another one who is accused of Text-distortion ?
Lal wrote: Note that the translator has translated “gandhabbo” as “spirit.” It is not a “spirit” in the sense of a “ghost”. It is the “mental body” or the essence of the human being born! How come people don’t ask that translator what that “spirit is”? This is why Buddha Dhamma has been hidden for all these years.
Because of Suttacentral?
Lal wrote: No one has responded yet.
If you could successfully convince Sujato that he is not the only one accused of Text-distortion,
then he will happy to help you.
Lal
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Re: Questions/Comments on the Teachings of Waharaka Thero.

Post by Lal »

To the Moderators:

Could you please delete these nonsensical comments from both threads?
- I hope you agree that there is absolutely no substance to them. I would be happy to respond to this person if he/she makes a valid response to my previous reply to him/her.
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