Astral Projection/Out of Body Experiences

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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confusedlayman
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Re: Astral Projection/Out of Body Experiences

Post by confusedlayman »

How can you study non sensual pleasure using senses? Didnt thw buddha said thinking about jhana and its limit lead to madness and frustation?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Astral Projection/Out of Body Experiences

Post by Coëmgenu »

SteRo wrote: Sat Mar 19, 2022 3:27 amI am a scientist not a believer. Science and belief are incompatible.
Based on what you say here, I doubt that you are a scientist. Scientists, generally speaking, do not have such naïve notions about "science."
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It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
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Re: Astral Projection/Out of Body Experiences

Post by dharmacorps »

SteRo wrote: Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:43 am
Based on what you you say I doubt that you are a scientist. And I have not said that "jhanas" or "enlightenment" exist but that in the course of neuroscientific research there will certainly appear scientific insights as to the subjective reports about "enlightenment" and "jhanas".
Well that gave me a good laugh. So if I disagree with you my diplomas and experience don't exist. :clap: :alien:
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Re: Astral Projection/Out of Body Experiences

Post by SteRo »

dharmacorps wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:20 am
SteRo wrote: Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:43 am
Based on what you you say I doubt that you are a scientist. And I have not said that "jhanas" or "enlightenment" exist but that in the course of neuroscientific research there will certainly appear scientific insights as to the subjective reports about "enlightenment" and "jhanas".
Well that gave me a good laugh. So if I disagree with you my diplomas and experience don't exist. :clap: :alien:
There are different aspects of "being scientist": 1. formally being scientist and 2. living science. Saying "Based on what you you say I doubt that you are a scientist" referred to the latter. This is an important differentiation because there are formal scientists with "diplomas and experience" who even believe in a god like you believe in buddhist religion. So being a scientist formally based on printed paper and applying science continually is very different.
dharmacorps wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 11:35 pm Jhanas are a superhuman/supernatural state, as is enlightenment--innately outside the realm of science.

To frame things in this way puts science above the dhamma.

Science is great for describing the physical world and processes within it. I'm a scientist, but there are limitations to its' application.
This clearly shows that you are living belief but not living science.
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Re: Astral Projection/Out of Body Experiences

Post by SteRo »

mjaviem wrote: Sat Mar 19, 2022 4:05 am
SteRo wrote: Sat Mar 19, 2022 3:27 am I do not believe [in] anything. Therefore i do not believe [in] the buddhist narratives either. Nevertheless I think (not believe) that neuroscience may reveal the neurobiological phenomena of the idea of "enlightenment" and reveal what brain processes are involved in "jhana" experiences.

I am a scientist not a believer. Science and belief are incompatible.
Ok, let's suppose a neurobiological phenomena is spotted. What then?
Why "What then?"? That is an unscientific question. Neuroscience has not yet solved the issue of conscious qualitative experience. Steady and patient micro step by micro step investigation following the course of 'hypothesis -> experiment -> applicable theory' is the scientific method. But of course compulsive ordinary ignorance based on experienced self wanting answers "now" cannot wait and thus fabricates religions and "spiritual" views. We will not witness neuroscience solving all issues because we will die earlier but that does not invalidate the scientific method and only imposes the discipline of non-speculation. The latter is very difficult when there are so many ill-founded speculative "theories" available alluring humans to believe instead of relying on scientific evidence independent of beliefs.
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Re: Astral Projection/Out of Body Experiences

Post by Kusala »

VinceField wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:32 pm I've practiced Theravada Buddhism for years and I've also been having out of body experiences since I was a teenager. I'm curious on your opinions of astral projection and how it can influence one's practice of Buddhism. In my experience, meditation while in the out of body state in on a completely different level than normal meditation in the body. It's like an instant connection with the source of your being, amplified exponentially compared to what I've experienced meditating in the body. I'd also like to share a video series I'm currently making to share my methods and experiences with astral projection in case anyone is interested.

https://youtu.be/3mcqgWijNHM
58:05-58:59 Not exactly astral projection...

"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
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Re: Astral Projection/Out of Body Experiences

Post by Coëmgenu »

SteRo wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 5:43 amThere are different aspects of "being scientist": 1. formally being scientist and 2. living science.
"Living science?" This is just some no true Scotsman nonsense.

It's tantamount to saying: No true scientist would disagree with me. Those who do must simply not be "living science" enough.

You are not a scientist. None of the real scientists on this forum take your nonsense claims seriously.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Astral Projection/Out of Body Experiences

Post by SteRo »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:50 pm
SteRo wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 5:43 amThere are different aspects of "being scientist": 1. formally being scientist and 2. living science.
"Living science?" This is just some no true Scotsman nonsense.

It's tantamount to saying: No true scientist would disagree with me. Those who do must simply not be "living science" enough.

You are not a scientist. None of the real scientists on this forum take your nonsense claims seriously.
Neuroscientific investigation into language learning and language processing (decoding, conceptualizations) is another vast area. What are the biochemical equivalents to concepts? How come that different human individual organisms form different concepts upon same verbal stimuli even though they share same language? What is the biochemically structural equivalent to the subjective experience of "real" or "true"?

As an alternative to "living science" I can offer something like "conduct aligned with the principles of science" (the biggest challenge being non-speculation). Different verbal expressions may provide different cognitive supports for different human organisms in terms of forming concepts. In the future communication may be far more simple due to applicable neuroscientific theories.
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Re: Astral Projection/Out of Body Experiences

Post by Coëmgenu »

You must be still into Buddhism a little bit, because that speech was very "empty" of semantic import. I am speaking specifically of this, "Neuroscientific investigation into language learning and language processing (decoding, conceptualizations) is another vast area."

This new science obsession, this identification as someone who "lives science," is just the latest reiteration of you wanting to "be someone" on the Internet. It's the same as back when you identified as the magical Mañjuśrī sphere.

I would recommend listening more to the real scientists here instead of framing yourself as the true scientist and them as phoneys.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Astral Projection/Out of Body Experiences

Post by Ceisiwr »

SteRo wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 1:21 pm ...
Science is a great method for helping to address questions and solve problems relating to "out there" in the physical world, but it's not the only way of looking at and approaching the world much less the only valid means of "knowledge". I put knowledge in quotation marks because science never actually tells you what really is. Science provides hypotheses and theories regarding how the world likely is, as understood at that time. It's an approximation of what is considered to be real. To give an example, classifications used in science aren't always as clear cut as people think. Take for example the definition of a species. We are still discussing just what a species actually is. Some define it as a population which can breed with each other. This would mean that Homo neanderthalensis were a different species to Homo sapien sapiens yet there are Homo sapien sapiens who share H. neanderthalensis DNA, indicating that the two interbred in the past. I'm actually one of them, having had my DNA analysed. Others would then argue that the two are of the same species despite the great anatomical differences between us, indicating separate genetic histories. Just what is a species also changes depending upon just what it is you are looking at. For example, how to classify viruses into species is different to how you classify multicellular organisms into species.

The categories we then use to classify organisms in biology are not always clear cut. There are blurred lines here and there, and they are fluid depending on the context. This is to be expected though, since said classifications are fabricated by us. They were what we impose upon reality in order to better understand it, rather than being "things" out there which we discover". This in turn inevitably means they will be imperfect. This applies to all other areas of science too. What science does then is provide a method so as to arrive at the best classifications, hypotheses and theories which match "out there" as possible. These then are very useful, but they are always approximations of "out there". They are always fabricated by us, in our attempt to map reality. This is why statistics are always used in science, but even with statistics it's a bit artificial. For example, in a scientific study you would want to see a P value of P < 0.05. When we see a P value that is less than 0.05 then you can reject the null hypothesis and conclude that the relationship you are seeing is not due to random chance. But why is it set at < 0.05? There isn't any reason at all to be honest (although I'm not a statistician so am open to correction here). You could instead set it as P < 0.01 or P < 0.10. Science then is very useful, but don't get deluded by it or by what edgy popular science writers say.

In a sense then you can say that science is a modern form of Abhidhamma. The Abhidhamma too tried to map reality as best it could, with it's classifications and logical relationships. Abhidhamma was in a sense proto-science in that regard. Regarding belief and science, they aren't all that incompatible at all. Someone who believes in God can accept the theories of modern science, yet take it on faith that God does exist and in someway designed it all. They are simply trusting that someone (say Jesus) has access to knowledge that is beyond science. Looking back at the New Atheist debates back around 2006-2010 the religious folks would have come off better if they defended faith a bit more IMO with the clarification that faith is not knowledge, but trust in how things are.
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Re: Astral Projection/Out of Body Experiences

Post by SteRo »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 1:45 pm You must be still into Buddhism a little bit, because that speech was very "empty" of semantic import. I am speaking specifically of this, "Neuroscientific investigation into language learning and language processing (decoding, conceptualizations) is another vast area."

This new science obsession, this identification as someone who "lives science," is just the latest reiteration of you wanting to "be someone" on the Internet. It's the same as back when you identified as the magical Mañjuśrī sphere.

I would recommend listening more to the real scientists here instead of framing yourself as the true scientist and them as phoneys.
All my verbal expressions touch upon exactly that: "Neuroscientific investigation into language learning and language processing (decoding, conceptualizations) ... " My brain is not exempt from the brain functioning of all human organisms so I cannot comment on your comment on my verbal expressions due to lack of scientific evidence. Intending to do so I would have to make use of verbal expressions borrowed from behavioural sciences that deal with language learning and conceptual associations but - although called "sciences" - this discipline makes excessive use of speculative theorizing not based on material scientific evidence independent of beliefs.
However subjectively it appears to me that after obsessively speculating myself making use of speculative buddhist doctrine in the past (whích may have influenced my conceptual framing to some extent) a scientific outlook is the natural end point when it comes to public verbal expression aimed at maximum independence of philosophical and religious beliefs. It appears to me that in this regard scientific conduct and sceptical conduct are the same. "It appears to me" ... whatever the material "reality" [*] of this may be.

[*] Take note of:
SteRo wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 1:21 pm ... What is the biochemically structural equivalent to the subjective experience of "real" or "true"?
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Re: Astral Projection/Out of Body Experiences

Post by SteRo »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 3:13 pm
SteRo wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 1:21 pm ...
...
In a sense then you can say that science is a modern form of Abhidhamma.
That's a hilarious statement. Abhidhamma is mere speculation not based on any scientific evidence.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 3:13 pm The Abhidhamma too tried to map reality as best it could, with it's classifications and logical relationships.
Why "too"? Science uses the language of "classifications and logical relationships", yes, but whether science is a try to "map reality" depends in the philosophical outlook of the scientist and thus depends on philosophical belief and thus affirming that it would "try to map reality" is itself an non-scientific speculative statement.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 3:13 pm Regarding belief and science, they aren't all that incompatible at all.
As you do people always confuse "science" and "scientists". Of course there are scientists who have beliefs but science isn't compatible with beliefs and a 'formal' scientist ("formal" due to diploma and the like) who confuses "scientific evidence" with her/his beliefs is a failed 'wannabe' scientist.
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Re: Astral Projection/Out of Body Experiences

Post by Coëmgenu »

You shouldn't try to paint real scientists as frauds and wannabes when it is you who is the fraudulent wannabe scientist. All you are succeeding in is undermining your own credibility.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Astral Projection/Out of Body Experiences

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"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body. From this body he creates another body, endowed with form, made of the mind, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties. Just as if a man were to draw a reed from its sheath. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the sheath, this is the reed. The sheath is one thing, the reed another, but the reed has been drawn out from the sheath.' Or as if a man were to draw a sword from its scabbard. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the sword, this is the scabbard. The sword is one thing, the scabbard another, but the sword has been drawn out from the scabbard.' Or as if a man were to pull a snake out from its slough. The thought would occur to him: 'This is the snake, this is the slough. The snake is one thing, the slough another, but the snake has been pulled out from the slough.' In the same way — with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body. From this body he creates another body, endowed with form, made of the mind, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties.
DN 2
Sound a lot like astal projection to me. :smile:
VinceField wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:39 am The process essentially involves keeping your mind awake as your body falls asleep and separating from the body. In terms of meditating while out of body, I believe some and sometimes even all of the jhanas are easily reached almost instantly at times. The practice does seem to serve to provide helpful insights into the nature of the self and reality if you are able to progress to the level that you gain access to deeper levels of nonphysical reality, as opposed to the more superficial dimensions commonly experienced as a beginner.
This is essentially what the practice of Tibetan Dream Yoga is about. But of course that's a Mahayana practice. :smile:
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Re: Astral Projection/Out of Body Experiences

Post by SteRo »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 12:42 pm You shouldn't try to paint real scientists as frauds and wannabes when it is you who is the fraudulent wannabe scientist. All you are succeeding in is undermining your own credibility.
"real scientists" and "true scientists" are naive expressions you have been using. All I said is that a person applying scientific methods exclusively and relying on scientific evidence exclusively in investigations is rightly called "scientist" but a person who may have acquired diploma of science but does mix up beliefs and scientific methods and confuse belief with scientific evidence is not rightly called "scientist" but may be rightly called "failed 'wannabe' scientist".
Beyond that I've coined the expression "living science" which refers to a conduct aligned with the principles of science (evidence and non-speculation) in all areas of life. This conduct does not depend on being involved in scientific investigations professionally but can be practiced by any individual that does not rely on beliefs but relies on evidence exclusively and is capable to pursue 'non-speculation' cognitively. Thus "living science" appears to be the same or at least very close to "living scepticism".
As to "All you are succeeding in is undermining your own credibility.": It would be inconsistent if I appealed to belief when applying verbal expressions, so your expression does not apply. In the context of my postings what is evident exclusively are the visible linguistic symbols I have typed.
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