Astral Projection/Out of Body Experiences

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
dharmacorps
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Re: Astral Projection/Out of Body Experiences

Post by dharmacorps »

It is really hard to say much about what you may be experiencing, as these can be signs of progress in practice (in very intense practitioners), neutral experiences, and even sometimes, getting sidetracked and practice being off the path. I've also heard it from people who are falling asleep or dreaming, and not meditating at all.

I recommend bringing it to a in-person meditation teacher and see what they make of it. For meditators who have visions or unusual experiences like this, this means they typically need more help from a teacher rather than less, because they get "into" the visions and think they mean something when they don't.

The Buddha's perspective on what may be called projection of a mind-made body is a supernatural power generally understood to be that of fully enlightened beings, arahants, etc. Astral projection is a western- new age idea, so the two are not necessarily connected.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Astral Projection/Out of Body Experiences

Post by Coëmgenu »

Goofaholix wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:03 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:17 am I have so-called "out of body" experiences every now and then. Problem is, they happen when I'm sleeping, and are thus indistinguishable from dreams.

All of my dreams are lucid, which is very irregular as I've been told.
I was listening to a podcast by Leigh Brasington recently and he was talking abut the Siddhis, I'm not sure if Astral Projection is a Siddhi but it's Siddhi-like.

Anyway he made two points that I agree with; firstly there is nothing about the Dhamma that suggests we should be able to defy the law of physics, and secondly some of them make more sense if you interpret them as lucid dreaming.
It gets even more ambiguous when we consider that we can have "dreaming" or "profoundly dream-like" experiences while not sleeping too. I wonder if it's like a form of waking lucid dreaming. I'm not married to that idea, but it's interesting.

I'm thinking of instances in the EBTs where people are described as "becoming the sun" or the moon or the stars.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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confusedlayman
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Re: Astral Projection/Out of Body Experiences

Post by confusedlayman »

VinceField wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 3:29 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 3:39 am OBE is just lucid dream where external exnorvonment is your own room instead of some other environment like mars or moon. its all brain made stuff
That's actually not true. An out of body experience is more of a general term, but when you project your consciousness from the body, it doesn't go to the physical dimension. Consciousness usually shifts into the astral dimension, and these experiences are called astral projections. The astral is a dimension of reality "higher" in frequency than the physical dimension. Lucid dreaming, on the other hand, takes place in a mental dimension of reality in which your subconscious mind constructs the reality and environment. This is not the case for typical OBEs and astral projections. Over 20 years of experiments in these various states makes the differences quite clear.
all these are your theory that has no proof. you cant project consciousness outside your body as its not an entity or object. astral dimension or physical dimension all comes under mental dimension as it is perceived by mind process.
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Re: Astral Projection/Out of Body Experiences

Post by SteRo »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 4:23 am all these are your theory that has no proof.
Oh man. You shouldn't use such kind of "argument" in a religious forum. :roll: Just think about your own countless assertions.
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Post by sunnat »

these, like all phenomena that arise and pass away, are to be treated in the same way: with a non judgemental mind that recognise them as transient and not-self and, no matter how strange or interesting or real seeming, are like all other things, not a reason to cling to or reject. Instead merely note and continue.

What my first teacher would do whenever I came with clever questions would be to point at the nose, meaning 'go back to the breath'. Frustrating but really good advice in the end. Opinions are a trap.
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Re: Astral Projection/Out of Body Experiences

Post by SteRo »

Best to rely on scientific evidence exclusively.
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VinceField
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Re: Astral Projection/Out of Body Experiences

Post by VinceField »

SteRo wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 8:07 am Best to rely on scientific evidence exclusively.
Like the scientific evidence for the Jhanas and enlightenment? :rofl:
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Re: Astral Projection/Out of Body Experiences

Post by SteRo »

VinceField wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 5:17 pm
SteRo wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 8:07 am Best to rely on scientific evidence exclusively.
Like the scientific evidence for the Jhanas and enlightenment? :rofl:
"enlightenment" isn't satisfactorily defined and therefore it is part of different religious disciplines and cannot be a subject of neuroscience.
"jhanas" have the same problem: there is no unambiguous understanding of "jhanas" even within the buddhist community. So there is no basis for neuroscience to start from.
Nevertheless in the course of neuroscientific research there will certainly appear scientific insights as to the subjective reports about "enlightenment" and "jhanas".
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dharmacorps
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Re: Astral Projection/Out of Body Experiences

Post by dharmacorps »

SteRo wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:59 pm
Nevertheless in the course of neuroscientific research there will certainly appear scientific insights as to the subjective reports about "enlightenment" and "jhanas".
I don't see how it is in any way certain. Jhanas are a superhuman/supernatural state, as is enlightenment--innately outside the realm of science.

To frame things in this way puts science above the dhamma.

Science is great for describing the physical world and processes within it. I'm a scientist, but there are limitations to its' application.
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Re: Astral Projection/Out of Body Experiences

Post by SteRo »

dharmacorps wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 11:35 pm
SteRo wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:59 pm
Nevertheless in the course of neuroscientific research there will certainly appear scientific insights as to the subjective reports about "enlightenment" and "jhanas".
I don't see how it is in any way certain. Jhanas are a superhuman/supernatural state, as is enlightenment--innately outside the realm of science.

To frame things in this way puts science above the dhamma.

Science is great for describing the physical world and processes within it. I'm a scientist, but there are limitations to its' application.
Based on what you you say I doubt that you are a scientist. And I have not said that "jhanas" or "enlightenment" exist but that in the course of neuroscientific research there will certainly appear scientific insights as to the subjective reports about "enlightenment" and "jhanas".
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mjaviem
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Re: Astral Projection/Out of Body Experiences

Post by mjaviem »

SteRo wrote: Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:43 am ... I have not said that "jhanas" or "enlightenment" exist but that in the course of neuroscientific research there will certainly appear scientific insights as to the subjective reports about "enlightenment" and "jhanas".
And if one day we get solid scientific insigths explaining enlightenment, which means explaining why some people may claim freedom from suffering. What then? Will you credit the Buddha? Will you discard enlightenment as merely a subjective illusion?

Do you believe enlightenment is humanly possible, SteRo?
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Re: Astral Projection/Out of Body Experiences

Post by mikenz66 »

SteRo wrote: Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:43 am Based on what you you say I doubt that you are a scientist.
Not sure how you can tell. What he said is quite reasonable. Furthermore:
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SteRo
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Re: Astral Projection/Out of Body Experiences

Post by SteRo »

mjaviem wrote: Sat Mar 19, 2022 2:14 am
SteRo wrote: Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:43 am ... I have not said that "jhanas" or "enlightenment" exist but that in the course of neuroscientific research there will certainly appear scientific insights as to the subjective reports about "enlightenment" and "jhanas".
And if one day we get solid scientific insigths explaining enlightenment, which means explaining why some people may claim freedom from suffering. What then? Will you credit the Buddha? Will you discard enlightenment as merely a subjective illusion?

Do you believe enlightenment is humanly possible, SteRo?
I do not believe [in] anything. Therefore i do not believe [in] the buddhist narratives either. Nevertheless I think (not believe) that neuroscience may reveal the neurobiological phenomena of the idea of "enlightenment" and reveal what brain processes are involved in "jhana" experiences.

I am a scientist not a believer. Science and belief are incompatible.
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mjaviem
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Re: Astral Projection/Out of Body Experiences

Post by mjaviem »

SteRo wrote: Sat Mar 19, 2022 3:27 am I do not believe [in] anything. Therefore i do not believe [in] the buddhist narratives either. Nevertheless I think (not believe) that neuroscience may reveal the neurobiological phenomena of the idea of "enlightenment" and reveal what brain processes are involved in "jhana" experiences.

I am a scientist not a believer. Science and belief are incompatible.
Ok, let's suppose a neurobiological phenomena is spotted. What then?
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Re: Astral Projection/Out of Body Experiences

Post by form »

mjaviem wrote: Sat Mar 19, 2022 4:05 am
SteRo wrote: Sat Mar 19, 2022 3:27 am I do not believe [in] anything. Therefore i do not believe [in] the buddhist narratives either. Nevertheless I think (not believe) that neuroscience may reveal the neurobiological phenomena of the idea of "enlightenment" and reveal what brain processes are involved in "jhana" experiences.

I am a scientist not a believer. Science and belief are incompatible.
Ok, let's suppose a neurobiological phenomena is spotted. What then?
I think what he is trying to say is measure and record the data based on standardised definitions under changed controlled conditions. Then see if that can be replicated under the same conditions. That is nice to present as in theory but impossible to do it properly for meditation phenomenons. The closest scientists has tried is based on brain wave, heart rate, breathing rate. Advanced meditator will just contemplate and reflect when they mind is at higher level. Their "data" will be highly personal that is almost impossible to share and communicate meaningfully and productively with another.
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