🟧 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

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🟧 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by SDC »

:reading:


What we find early on in this sutta is a likening of the five aggregates subject to clinging to that of a strong post or pillar; as something that the ordinary person cannot get away from. An ownership of the aggregates is that bond, and the mind should be reflected upon as something that has long been defiled in this way by lust, hatred and delusion. This diversification by the mind is exemplified in one simile through the extraordinary number of possibilities found in the animal realm, and is said to be even more diverse than that. Though in all that diversity, in all those possibilities, it is only those five aggregates that can be found - is all that is “produced”.

I think there is a lot to unpack here and I am looking forward to what we can make of this sutta during this session.

(Just a friendly reminder that study sessions now last for two weeks.)

Enjoy. :smile:
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📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by SDC »

:reading:


Saṁyutta Nikāya
Dutiyagaddulabaddhasutta (The Leash) SN 22.100 (PTS 3.151–3.152)
Translated by Ven. Bodhi


  • “Bhikkhus, this saṁsara is without discoverable beginning. A first point is not discerned of beings roaming and wandering on hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving….

    “Suppose, bhikkhus, a dog tied up on a leash was bound to a strong post or pillar. If it walks, it walks close to that post or pillar. If it stands, it stands close to that post or pillar. If it sits down, it sits down close to that post or pillar. If it lies down, it lies down close to that post or pillar.

    “So too, bhikkhus, the uninstructed worldling regards form thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is myself.’ He regards feeling … perception … volitional formations … consciousness thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is myself.’ If he walks, he walks close to those five aggregates subject to clinging. If he stands, he stands close to those five aggregates subject to clinging. If he sits down, he sits down close to those five aggregates subject to clinging. If he lies down, he lies down close to those five aggregates subject to clinging.

    “Therefore, bhikkhus, one should often reflect upon one’s own mind thus: ‘For a long time this mind has been defiled by lust, hatred, and delusion.’ Through the defilements of the mind beings are defiled; with the cleansing of the mind beings are purified.

    “Bhikkhus, have you seen the picture called ‘Faring On’?”

    “Yes, venerable sir.”

    “Even that picture called ‘Faring On’ has been designed in its diversity by the mind, yet the mind is even more diverse than that picture called ‘Faring On.’

    “Therefore, bhikkhus, one should often reflect upon one’s own mind thus: ‘For a long time this mind has been defiled by lust, hatred, and delusion.’ Through the defilements of the mind beings are defiled; with the cleansing of the mind beings are purified.

    “Bhikkhus, I do not see any other order of living beings so diversified as those in the animal realm. Even those beings in the animal realm have been diversified by the mind, yet the mind is even more diverse than those beings in the animal realm.

    “Therefore, bhikkhus, one should often reflect upon one’s own mind thus: ‘For a long time this mind has been defiled by lust, hatred, and delusion.’ Through the defilements of the mind beings are defiled; with the cleansing of the mind beings are purified.

    “Suppose, bhikkhus, an artist or a painter, using dye or lac or turmeric or indigo or crimson, would create the figure of a man or a woman complete in all its features on a well-polished plank or wall or canvas. So too, when the uninstructed worldling produces anything, it is only form that he produces; only feeling that he produces; only perception that he produces; only volitional formations that he produces; only consciousness that he produces.

    “What do you think, bhikkhus, is form permanent or impermanent?”—“Impermanent, venerable sir.”…—“Is feeling permanent or impermanent?… Is perception permanent or impermanent? … Are volitional formations permanent or impermanent?… Is consciousness permanent or impermanent?”—“Impermanent, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”—“Suffering, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self’?”—“No, venerable sir.”

    “Therefore … Seeing thus … He understands: ‘… there is no more for this state of being.’”
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📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by SDC »

📚


Thoughts?

  • The picture "Faring On" - from Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes:
    The exact name of the picture's title is obscure. Spk glossess vicaranacitta, "the wandering picture" [Spk-pt: because the take it and wander about with it]...Spk: The Saṅkha were a sect of heretical Brahmins. Having taken a canvas, they had various pictures painted on it of the good and bad destinations to illustrate success and failure, and then they took it around on their wanderings. They would show it to the people explaining, "If one does this deed, one gets this result; if one does that, one gets that"."
    So, it is difficult to understand the scope of what was available in these paintings, but I think the point is that these Brahmins attempted to cover every possibility in terms of the result of action. Though it seems the possibilities are endless when it comes to the diversity of the defiled mind.
  • I thought it was noteworthy that the Buddha has no issue saying, “cittavodānā sattā visujjhanti with the cleansing of the mind beings are purified”.
  • This is very interesting: ”Even those beings in the animal realm have been diversified by the mind, yet the mind is even more diverse than those beings in the animal realm.”

    Bhikkhu Bodhi notes that past action shapes what is possible in the animal realm; that those actions shape the diversity found there. Same as above, it fascinating that in all that diversity, the point is that the mind seems to always have the potential for more. This scope is massive and makes sense why it is a good basis for that reflection of, “For a long time this mind has been defiled by lust, hatred and delusion.” In addition, this reflection brings so much of the entirety of all experience into one place, and seems to jive well with SN 22.79: “Bhikkhus, those ascetics and Brahmins who recollect their manifold past abodes all recollect the five aggregates subject to clinging or a certain one among them.”
  • The simile of artist creating the figure of a man or woman also appears in SN 12.64 in the context of the four nutriments:
    Suppose, bhikkhus, an artist or a painter, using dye or lac or turmeric or indigo or crimson, would create the figure of a man or a woman complete in all its features on a well-polished plank or wall or canvas. So too, if there is lust for the nutriment edible food, or for the nutriment contact, or for the nutriment mental volition, or for the nutriment consciousness, if there is delight, if there is craving, consciousness becomes established there and comes to growth. Wherever consciousness becomes established and comes to growth there is a descent of name-and-form. Where there is a descent of name-and-form, there is the growth of volitional formations. Where there is the growth of volitional formations, there is the production of future renewed existence. Where there is the production of future renewed existence, there is future birth, aging, and death. Where there is future birth, aging, and death, I say that is accompanied by sorrow, anguish, and despair.
    Let's compare with SN 22.100:
    Suppose, bhikkhus, an artist or a painter, using dye or lac or turmeric or indigo or crimson, would create the figure of a man or a woman complete in all its features on a well-polished plank or wall or canvas. So too, when the uninstructed worldling produces anything, it is only form that he produces; only feeling that he produces; only perception that he produces; only volitional formations that he produces; only consciousness that he produces.
    I think there are so many ways to interpret this simile, but one that struck me after reading it through a few times was the fact that, according to the simile, clinging (upādāna) is not something that can be produced, yet it is there. That seems to be consistent with the famous line from MN 44: “That clinging is not the same thing as the five clinging aggregates, nor is clinging one thing and the five clinging aggregates another. The desire and lust for the five clinging aggregates is the clinging there.”

    Is that the key? That ownership is not even possible? It begs the question that Buddha asks at the very end: Is it fit to be regarded as something to be owned?

Very much looking forward to what others think of this remarkable sutta. :smile:
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by mjaviem »

SDC wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 1:23 am ...
  • I thought it was noteworthy that the Buddha has no issue saying, “cittavodānā sattā visujjhanti with the cleansing of the mind beings are purified”.
...
Oh, that is because the Tathāgata...
MN 1 (B. Bodhi) wrote:... directly knows beings as beings. Having directly known beings as beings, he does not conceive beings, he does not conceive himself in beings, he does not conceive himself apart from beings, he does not conceive beings to be ‘mine,’ he does not delight in beings. Why is that? Because the Tathāgata has fully understood it to the end...
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by mjaviem »

SDC wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 1:23 am ... SN 22.100:
Should it say "produces" or should it say "aquires"?
SN 22.100 wrote:... So too, when the uninstructed worldling produces anything, it is only form that he produces; only feeling that he produces; only perception that he produces; only volitional formations that he produces; only consciousness that he produces....
... evameva kho, bhikkhave, assutavā puthujjano rūpaññeva abhinibbattento abhinibbatteti, vedanaññeva …pe… saññaññeva … saṅkhāreyeva … viññāṇaññeva abhinibbattento abhinibbatteti. ...
Is Bhikkhu Bodhi wrong translating like this here?
MN 29 (B.Bodhi) wrote:... When he has gone forth thus, he acquires gain, honour, and renown...
... So evaṁ pabbajito samāno lābhasakkārasilokaṁ abhinibbatteti...
MN 29 (B. Sujato) wrote:... When they’ve gone forth they generate possessions, honor, and popularity...
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by SDC »

mjaviem wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 2:00 pm
SDC wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 1:23 am ... SN 22.100:
Should it say "produces" or should it say "aquires"?
SN 22.100 wrote:... So too, when the uninstructed worldling produces anything, it is only form that he produces; only feeling that he produces; only perception that he produces; only volitional formations that he produces; only consciousness that he produces....
... evameva kho, bhikkhave, assutavā puthujjano rūpaññeva abhinibbattento abhinibbatteti, vedanaññeva …pe… saññaññeva … saṅkhāreyeva … viññāṇaññeva abhinibbattento abhinibbatteti. ...
Is Bhikkhu Bodhi wrong translating like this here?
MN 29 (B.Bodhi) wrote:... When he has gone forth thus, he acquires gain, honour, and renown...
... So evaṁ pabbajito samāno lābhasakkārasilokaṁ abhinibbatteti...
MN 29 (B. Sujato) wrote:... When they’ve gone forth they generate possessions, honor, and popularity...
Good food for thought!!!

All things considered, abhinibbatteti (produce/create) always seems to have connotations of something additional. I think this makes a lot of sense especially in cases of the aggregates, which are also described as heaps. In that sense of appropriation, it could make some sense to say these “productions” are also by default the ordinary person’s acquisitions. It seems context played a part in Bhikkhu Bodhi’s decision. And I do like “generate” in this case as well.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by mjaviem »

SDC wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 3:42 pm ... All things considered, abhinibbatteti (produce/create) always seems to have connotations of something additional. I think this makes a lot of sense especially in cases of the aggregates, which are also described as heaps. In that sense of appropriation, it could make some sense to say these “productions” are also by default the ordinary person’s acquisitions. It seems context played a part in Bhikkhu Bodhi’s decision. And I do like “generate” in this case as well.
I can't come up with a verb that means generation and also acquisition at the same time. I think this is relevant to the teaching of D.O. where we find coming into being when there is clinging. In the times of the Buddha people went fishing and produced the catch of the day or they produced a fire for warmth themselves or cook their meal. This is as far as I managed to get in search of a verb that means producing for oneself and not for others.

EDIT: My english teacher taught me that whenever I can't come up with a verb for what I'm trying to say, I should use "get" and I will be ok... :tongue:
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by mjaviem »

.. ... So too, when the uninstructed worldling gets anything, it is only form that he gets; only feeling that he gets; only perception that he gets; only volitional formations that he gets; only consciousness that he gets....
... When he has gone forth thus, he gets gain, honour, and renown...
... When you rub two sticks together, heat is generated and fire is gotten...
:tongue:
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by SDC »

mjaviem wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 3:56 pm
SDC wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 3:42 pm ... All things considered, abhinibbatteti (produce/create) always seems to have connotations of something additional. I think this makes a lot of sense especially in cases of the aggregates, which are also described as heaps. In that sense of appropriation, it could make some sense to say these “productions” are also by default the ordinary person’s acquisitions. It seems context played a part in Bhikkhu Bodhi’s decision. And I do like “generate” in this case as well.
I can't come up with a verb that means generation and also acquisition at the same time. I think this is relevant to the teaching of D.O. where we find coming into being when there is clinging. In the time of the Buddha people went fishing and produced the catch of the day or they produced a fire for warmth themselves or cook their meal. This is so far I managed to get in search of a verb that means producing for oneself and not for others.
With the presence of clinging there is that distortion in terms of sensuality, virtue and duty, views and/or the doctrine of self. It seems experience is subjected to that distortion by default (until an instruction for undoing it comes along). From that point of view, things are both generated and acquired as long as that clinging is present. Especially in the case of attavadaupadana (clinging to the doctrine of self), that clinging implies that self-view, so experience would correspond to that distortion as long as it hasn’t been uprooted. Perhaps that solves the case of compounding generation and acquisition.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

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mjaviem wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 3:56 pm EDIT: My english teacher taught me that whenever I can't come up with a verb for what I'm trying to say, I should use "get" and I will be ok... :tongue:
That’s good advice!!!
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by mjaviem »

Source: Concise mjaviem Dictionary of Pali

abhinibbatteti : (abhi + ni + vat + e) obtains.

causative, present

:tongue:
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by Ceisiwr »

I think produce is more apt, since it is talking about building up the aggregates in another life. The parallel even more strongly shows this, although I'm not skilled enough to check the chinese
“Should he be giving rise to future instances of bodily form … feeling … perception … formations … consciousness, then he will not be liberated from bodily form … feeling … perception … formations … consciousness, I say he will not be liberated from birth, old age, disease, death, worry, sorrow, vexation, and pain.

A learned noble disciple understands as it really is bodily form, the arising of bodily form, the cessation of bodily form, the gratification of bodily form, the danger in bodily form, and the escape from bodily form. Because of understanding it as it really is, he does not delight in and is not attached to bodily form. Because of not delighting in and not being attached to it, he does not give rise to future instances of bodily form.

He understands as it really is feeling … perception … formation … consciousness, the arising of consciousness, the cessation of consciousness, the gratification of consciousness, the danger in consciousness, and the escape from consciousness. Because of understanding it as it really is, he does not delight in and is not attached to consciousness. Because of not delighting in and not being attached to it, he does not give rise to future instances of consciousness."
https://suttacentral.net/sa267/en/anala ... light=true

The "instances of" is inserted by the translator.
Abhinibbatteti Abhinibbatteti [abhi + nibbatteti, caus. of ˚nibbattati] to produce, cause, cause to become S iii.152; A v.47; Nd2 under jāneti.
https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/p ... type=exact

Because of craving and clinging there is future existence, birth, ageing, death and so on.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:40 pm I think produce is more apt, since it is talking about building up the aggregates in another life...
Yes this is an example of how translations are influenced by the views of the translators. B. Bodhi is a believer of life after death which is fair and ok and he translates texts having that in mind. Like you, I too think we can see this view in how he translates abhinibbatteti to english. Of course I'm nobody to say that a better translation would be "obtains". The same goes for rebirth, I'm no one to say that a better translation would be "birth".
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 5:20 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:40 pm I think produce is more apt, since it is talking about building up the aggregates in another life...
Yes this is an example of how translations are influenced by the views of the translators. B. Bodhi is a believer of life after death which is fair and ok and he translates texts having that in mind. Like you, I too think we can see this view in how he translates abhinibbatteti to english. Of course I'm nobody to say that a better translation would be "obtains". The same goes for rebirth, I'm no one to say that a better translation would be "birth".
The definition I gave was from the Pali Text Society Dictionary. Ven. Bodhi wasn’t being biased. He was translating it correctly.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 5:36 pm The definition I gave was from the Pali Text Society Dictionary. Ven. Bodhi wasn’t being biased. He was translating it correctly.
And he translated "acquires" in MN 29. That's not the definition from the Pali Text Society Dictionary.
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