🟧 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Where we gather to focus on a single discourse or thematic collection from the Sutta Piṭaka (new selection every two weeks)
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mikenz66
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by mikenz66 »

SDC wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 1:56 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 3:20 am My point is that trying to do that investigation by examining the connotations of the particular English words that were used in a translation is quite likely to be misleading. If there is some important subtlety to the meaning, then one needs to examine how the Pali words are used in other contexts.
For a single word usage in one sutta, I agree. My suggestion early on was that in gathering together what is found in a PED along with the choices of different translations in one or multiple suttas, puts us in a good position to see what the various options have in common. I think this can be done with the English as long as the investigation is comprehensive.
Well, sometimes. I have been at pains to point out that taking an English phrase like
"one obtains ..." as evidence of possessiveness is likely to be highly misleading, since it's probably just a literary idiom. As I have said, if I compare translations it often becomes obvious that what is implied by one English choice is not always implied by another, and is probably accidental. If both Bhikkhu Bodhi's and Bhikkhu Sujato's translations have similar implications, that might be worth pursuing.

And, of course, there is the problem that sometimes the Pali is using some particular idiom. That's not a problem for competent translators, but it poses difficulties if one thinks translating means looking up words in a dictionary.

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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 12:28 am
I regard subtleties important in this case. As you can see, our friend Ceisiwr found that my understanding of abhinibbatteti as "obtains" is not good and should be understood as "produces" or "generates" and he called for reasons about life beyond death.
I referred to the dictionary.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:47 pm I referred to the dictionary.
True. And also this:
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:40 pm I think produce is more apt, since it is talking about building up the aggregates in another life.
...
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by Sam Vara »

Pulsar wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 5:23 pm
If the foundation on DO is firm, language should not create problems. Many understand rupa to be a physical thing, while other aggregates are understood to be mental. I can never figure out how they come to that conclusion. mjaviem wrote
SN 22.100 wrote:
... So too, when the uninstructed worldling produces anything, it is only form that he produces; only feeling that he produces; only perception that he produces; only volitional formations that he produces; only consciousness that he produces....
Does not the above quote place rupa in the same produced category as, vedana, sanna etc. as a mental event?
I don't see why. It places it in the same category of that which is produced. But presumably someone who thinks rūpa is a "physical thing" could read this as saying that the uninstructed worldling produces physical things. Which are still different from mental aggregates.

I'm not saying that one should take rūpa to mean "physical thing"; just that this passage gives no reason not to.
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:02 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:47 pm I referred to the dictionary.
True. And also this:
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:40 pm I think produce is more apt, since it is talking about building up the aggregates in another life.
...
Because of the dictionary.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by Pulsar »

Sam Vara wrote
I don't see why. It places it in the same category of that which is produced.
Does not 'produce' here mean "mental activity"? Buddha is referring only to the activities of consciousness, how consciousness produces suffering? Can consciousness produce solid things, just by thinking?
you wrote
But presumably someone who thinks rūpa is a "physical thing" could read this as saying that the uninstructed worldling produces physical things. Which are still different from mental aggregates.
If someone thought that the rupa the Buddha is referring to either in relation to aggregates or rupa in relation to Nama-rupa of dependent origination is solid, has he/she not misunderstood the teaching?
You wrote
I'm not saying that one should take rūpa to mean "physical thing"; just that this passage gives no reason not to.
Should not the passage in the sutta be read with the teaching of Dependent Origination as the background?
Do you think otherwise? If so why do you think so?
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by sunnat »

It's, as usual, about kamma and kamma resultants and how as one perceives Anicca of all composed things one may abandon the underlying tendencies of lust, hatred and delusion that keeps one bound to the five aggregates and so sever the ties to the pole.

Because all beings are heirs to their own kamma and the possible permutations of volitional actions and the arising of conditions for their resultants to arise are endless they are more diverse than the diversity of things that have been composed.
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by Bundokji »

Pulsar wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 10:59 pm If someone thought that the rupa the Buddha is referring to either in relation to aggregates or rupa in relation to Nama-rupa of dependent origination is solid, has he/she not misunderstood the teaching?
I am not sure if the "body" in the following sutta refers to rupa or another pali term, but the description makes it more solid than mere mental activity:
"It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.
Do you think the above distinction is necessary for purifying the mind?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by Sam Vara »

Pulsar wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 10:59 pm Sam Vara wrote
I don't see why. It places it in the same category of that which is produced.
Does not 'produce' here mean "mental activity"? Buddha is referring only to the activities of consciousness, how consciousness produces suffering? Can consciousness produce solid things, just by thinking?
"Produce" is how the translator has rendered abhinibbatteti, which is I think the causative of abhinibbattati. It means to bring something about, to cause it to come into existence or generate it. It doesn't seem to be restricted to activities of consciousness. Upthread, for example, we have SN 12.62 where fire is "produced". The production of fire by rubbing sticks together seems to be something more than mental activity.

So the Buddha may well have been referring to the activities of consciousness, but there is no evidence for it here.
If someone thought that the rupa the Buddha is referring to either in relation to aggregates or rupa in relation to Nama-rupa of dependent origination is solid, has he/she not misunderstood the teaching?
That's a far bigger question. I don't know the answer. I'm just concerned with your rhetorical question above:
Does not the above quote place rupa in the same produced category as, vedana, sanna etc. as a mental event?
You might consider that - for other reasons - rupa is a mental event. But The quote does not place it there. The placing is done elsewhere, if at all.
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by Pulsar »

Bundokji wrote in response to my comment that rupa is produced by mental activity
I am not sure if the "body" in the following sutta refers to rupa or another pali term, but the description makes it more solid than mere mental activity:
and presented this quote from a sutta
"It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.
and asked
Do you think the above distinction is necessary for purifying the mind?
No the above quote is not addressing the purification of the mind. Buddha is merely saying for the uninstructed run of the mill person ie the person who is not familiar with the foundation of Buddha Dhamma which is Dependent Origination, or the person who has not been instructed in the Dhamma.
it is better to think so.
What does the ending portion of the sutta say? I remember the sutta vaguely, but cannot discuss without the remaining portion of the sutta, to be fair to the Buddha.
Can you pl provide me with the sutta number or name? Did the OP bring it into the discussion?
I recall it being in Khanda Samyutta or Nidana Samyutta, I have diverted my attention to the Chinese suttas lately, so forgive the deficiency in my memory.
With love :candle:
I shall answer Sam Vara as I find the time. I appreciate both queries.
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by mjaviem »

Pulsar wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 5:23 pm ... Many understand rupa to be a physical thing, while other aggregates are understood to be mental. I can never figure out how they come to that conclusion. mjaviem wrote
SN 22.100 wrote:
... So too, when the uninstructed worldling produces anything, it is only form that he produces; only feeling that he produces; only perception that he produces; only volitional formations that he produces; only consciousness that he produces....
Does not the above quote place rupa in the same produced category as, vedana, sanna etc. as a mental event?
...
Form is a physical thing, if not, what is physical, then? Sounds, odors, pressure, etc., all this that we sense with our five senses are physical things. How can they be mental? I don't think an Ariya understands the physical world as something mental. I think their understanding goes beyond the physical and the mental.

I believe their understanding goes along the line that, whenever something is, it is because we crave and attach. This is how we produce, when there is craving we have a view of self, and this is what we get: forms come to be, feelings, perceptions and intentions come to be, the very consciousness come to be, this is clinging and how we, our very selves, become. Nurtured with delight in food and sensuality, and also nurtured with contact, intention and cognition which are so harmful, so full of desire. There's no ultimate peace when we load whatever we can grasp at with desire, the desire that we are somebody and there is a world we can enjoy. We can't see things as they are, so peaceful and void of our distortion. We can't see the only thing that really comes to be. All we can get, all we produce.
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by Bundokji »

Pulsar wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 1:32 pm No the above quote is not addressing the purification of the mind. Buddha is merely saying for the uninstructed run of the mill person ie the person who is not familiar with the foundation of Buddha Dhamma which is Dependent Origination, or the person who has not been instructed in the Dhamma.
it is better to think so.
What does the ending portion of the sutta say? I remember the sutta vaguely, but cannot discuss without the remaining portion of the sutta, to be fair to the Buddha.
Can you pl provide me with the sutta number or name? Did the OP bring it into the discussion?
I recall it being in Khanda Samyutta or Nidana Samyutta, I have diverted my attention to the Chinese suttas lately, so forgive the deficiency in my memory.
With love :candle:
I shall answer Sam Vara as I find the time. I appreciate both queries.
The referenced sutta is SN 12.61. The remaining portion of the sutta is:
"The instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully & appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising:

"'When this is, that is.

"'From the arising of this comes the arising of that.

"'When this isn't, that isn't.

"'From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.

"'In other words:

"'From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications.

"'From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness.

"'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.

"'From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.

"'From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact.

"'From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling.

"'From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.

"'From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance.

"'From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming.

"'From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth.

"'From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"'Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.'

"Seeing thus, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness.[1] Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

While the Buddha was referring to the uninstructed person, the relative terms of which it was stated that for the uninstructed, its better to take the body composed of the four elements as a self than the mind. This seems to be inline with MN 117 which divides right view into two sorts: right view with effluents and right view that is noble and transcendence. The former is not unique to the Buddha, while the later seems to be more exclusive.

While awaiting to your reply, if i may share few reflections:

Before uttering the teachings of DO, the sutta began with: "When this, that is". If dependent origination is a subset of the former, then it seems to apply to both the instructed and the uninstructed. The instructed knows it as transcendence while the uninstructed knows it as how nature behaves. Even though noble people are said to have transcended kamma loka, the law of kamma seems to be still operative even after transcendence. The relationship between SN 12.61 and SN 22.100 as shared by the OP is that the dog that is being bound to a post seems to be unaware of better alternative, as with the uninstructed who is better off taking the body as a self than the mind. The same sutta indicates an underlying tendency of the uninstructed, which is taking the mind as a self, so taking the body as a self serves as a corrective in this particular instance. It is a move from wrong view to right view with effluents. Back to my original question: why would not that be a form of purifying the mind?

The Middle path is said to transcend false dilemmas (the extremes) as well as false equivalences. As to the uninstructed, the three marks still apply where "sabba" is limited by choice. The choice of siding where one is bound seems to be rationale choice, akin to siding with merit.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by Pulsar »

Bundokji wrote
While the Buddha was referring to the uninstructed person, the relative terms of which it was stated that for the uninstructed, its better to take the body composed of the four elements as a self than the mind. This seems to be inline with MN 117 which divides right view into two sorts:
I see the problem here, this sutta is addressing the dilemma of two categories of people
  • First has no clue as to the Dhamma, no understanding of DO.
  • Second has been instructed on DO.
The sutta you introduced SN 12.61 will have to be studied along with SN 12.62. If you want to drag in MN 117 it complicates matters, we are deviating from the topic of discussion.
The subject of the sutta study in this session is SN 22.100. While the OP has mentioned few other suttas which are very appropriate in clarifying Rupa and contact/phassa, I am not sure I want to get into a discussion of how different folks understand DO. Retro dealt with it a while ago.
viewtopic.php?t=40493. Did you follow that discussion? I found it to be the most helpful discussion on DW. I learnt to eliminate the suttas where abhidhamma had crept in.
With love :candle:
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by Pulsar »

Sam Vara wrote
"Produce" is how the translator has rendered abhinibbatteti, which is I think the causative of abhinibbattati. It means to bring something about, to cause it to come into existence or generate it. It doesn't seem to be restricted to activities of consciousness.
The word may mean production of anything, but what happens if you take the context into account?
The Samyutta deals with the activity of consciousness, therefore this production is an activity of consciousness. Right? just like origination of suffering lies initially in the fact (not many are aware of it), that rupa that emerges in the mind is named.
You wrote
Upthread, for example, we have SN 12.62 where fire is "produced". The production of fire by rubbing sticks together seems to be something more than mental activity.
Buddha is offering a metaphor here, he does mot mean it literally, that there is a stick in the eye that rubs against the image of a woman or man (another stick).
When an object catches the attention of say, the eye, a nerve impulse (electro-chemical/biochemical) is created, that is associated with the consciousness ie Phassa.
That is what is called a spark.
Sometimes I think metaphors get misinterpreted by the tradition. Think of the first metaphor in Kajjaniya sutta, not to divert from the topic, but many misinterpret that too. It is a general trend.
So the Buddha may well have been referring to the activities of consciousness, but there is no evidence for it here.
Does not the sutta belong in the Nidana Samyutta, a Samyutta that deals with dependent origination?
When I wrote
If someone thought that the rupa the Buddha is referring to either in relation to aggregates or rupa in relation to Nama-rupa of dependent origination is solid, has he/she not misunderstood the teaching?
You wrote
That's a far bigger question. I don't know the answer.
Each person has to find an answer to the bigger question first. While a doubt is looming over one, can one proceed in the right direction? Doubt is one of the five hindrances, that stops one from investigating Dhamma correctly.
Amazingly, answers to bigger questions are found in small places.
I enjoy the interaction with you.
With love :candle:
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by SDC »

mjaviem wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 4:25 pm I believe their understanding goes along the line that, whenever something is, it is because we crave and attach. This is how we produce, when there is craving we have a view of self, and this is what we get: forms come to be, feelings, perceptions and intentions come to be, the very consciousness come to be, this is clinging and how we, our very selves, become. Nurtured with delight in food and sensuality, and also nurtured with contact, intention and cognition which are so harmful, so full of desire.
Here’s an interesting passage that I wish I had included in the OP:
SN 12.15 wrote: At Savatthī. Then the Venerable Kaccanagotta approached the Blessed One, paid homage to him, sat down to one side, and said to him: “Venerable sir, it is said, ‘right view, right view.’ In what way, venerable sir, is there right view?”

“This world, Kaccana, for the most part depends upon a duality—upon the notion of existence and the notion of nonexistence. But for one who sees the origin of the world as it really is with correct wisdom, there is no notion of nonexistence in regard to the world. And for one who sees the cessation of the world as it really is with correct wisdom, there is no notion of existence in regard to the world.

“This world, Kaccana, is for the most part shackled by engagement, clinging, and adherence. But this one with right view does not become engaged and cling through that engagement and clinging, mental standpoint, adherence, underlying tendency; he does not take a stand about ‘my self.’ He has no perplexity or doubt that what arises is only suffering arising, what ceases is only suffering ceasing. His knowledge about this is independent of others.
This is from the point of view of DO; of existence/non-existence, but does have some relevance here. On the premise of existence/non-existence, the only thing that can be said to have arisen or ceased is suffering. I suppose the difference here is that the aggregates - while also having been compared to a mirage - do appear. Now if we again take SN 22.79 into consideration, whatever variation there is in form, whether past, future or present, it is all just form (same with the other four aggregates), i.e. nothing other than the aggregates have been produced/generated.

Any of our Pali people have any comment about the relationship between uppajjati of SN 12.16 and abhinibbatteti of SN 22.100? Seems abhinibbatteti is the result of intent/action; a heaping up of form, feeling etc.; while uppajjati is more of a consequence of view - suffering in the case of SN 12.16.

Thoughts?
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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