🟧 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Where we gather to focus on a single discourse or thematic collection from the Sutta Piṭaka (new selection every two weeks)
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by Sam Vara »

Pulsar wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 1:49 pm Sam Vara wrote
"Produce" is how the translator has rendered abhinibbatteti, which is I think the causative of abhinibbattati. It means to bring something about, to cause it to come into existence or generate it. It doesn't seem to be restricted to activities of consciousness.
The word may mean production of anything, but what happens if you take the context into account?
The Samyutta deals with the activity of consciousness, therefore this production is an activity of consciousness. Right?
Which samyutta? 22.100 is from the khandhasamyutta, which deals with the khandhas. There doesn't seem to be a claim within that section to the effect that everything therein is restricted to the activity of consciousness. One might well believe that, of course, but as I said above it would have to come from elsewhere.
Buddha is offering a metaphor here, he does mot mean it literally, that there is a stick in the eye that rubs against the image of a woman or man (another stick).
Yes, no doubt it is a metaphor, but the salient point here is that when one talks about the metaphorical process, one is talking about a physical activity; that of rubbing sticks together to produce fire. The fact that abhinibattati is used here means that when talking about physical processes, abhinibattati is a verb that can be used. Therefore its use in SN 22.100 leaves open the question as to whether the process is physical or mental.
Does not the sutta belong in the Nidana Samyutta, a Samyutta that deals with dependent origination?
SN 12.62 does, but the sutta here - SN22.100 - does not.
Each person has to find an answer to the bigger question first. While a doubt is looming over one, can one proceed in the right direction?
Yes, I believe one can. Unless, of course, one doubts every aspect of the Dhamma.
Doubt is one of the five hindrances, that stops one from investigating Dhamma correctly.
I'm fortunate, then, that my doubt only extends as far as this rhetorical question of yours:
SN 22.100 wrote:
... So too, when the uninstructed worldling produces anything, it is only form that he produces; only feeling that he produces; only perception that he produces; only volitional formations that he produces; only consciousness that he produces....
Does not the above quote place rupa in the same produced category as, vedana, sanna etc. as a mental event?
I can't see that the above quote does place rupa in the category of mental event. Nor does the context you have provided do anything whatsoever to place it there. Although, to repeat, I do not doubt that there may be grounds elsewhere for regarding it so. I'd have to see those grounds in order to make a judgement. But that quote on its own...no.
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

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Sam Vara wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 4:25 pm
SN 22.100 wrote:
... So too, when the uninstructed worldling produces anything, it is only form that he produces; only feeling that he produces; only perception that he produces; only volitional formations that he produces; only consciousness that he produces....
Does not the above quote place rupa in the same produced category as, vedana, sanna etc. as a mental event?
I can't see that the above quote does place rupa in the category of mental event. Nor does the context you have provided do anything whatsoever to place it there. Although, to repeat, I do not doubt that there may be grounds elsewhere for regarding it so. I'd have to see those grounds in order to make a judgement. But that quote on its own...no.
I think it is just a matter of accumulation. The heaps/aggregates will grow for as long as they have not broke apart. Classifying one aspect as mental or physical is valid, but the choice to do so is only possible because something has appeared to classify; there on account of birth; the pairing of body with consciousness, which is the reason for the aggregates being there together. Point being, the manifestation of the aggregates and the acquisition of senses is the reason experience is available at all. Call it whatever you want, doesn’t matter. You couldn’t call it anything if it wasn’t there, available to be called. So, even though the form (that is the body) is the reason for all of it, that form is only knowable through dhammasañña (perception of thoughts): the senses come together in the mind (SN 48.42). In that respect, rupa (form), the living body, is the reason there is experience, but that can only be discerned on account of what has appeared and knowledge developed about it.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by Sam Vara »

SDC wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 6:19 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 4:25 pm
SN 22.100 wrote:
... So too, when the uninstructed worldling produces anything, it is only form that he produces; only feeling that he produces; only perception that he produces; only volitional formations that he produces; only consciousness that he produces....
Does not the above quote place rupa in the same produced category as, vedana, sanna etc. as a mental event?
I can't see that the above quote does place rupa in the category of mental event. Nor does the context you have provided do anything whatsoever to place it there. Although, to repeat, I do not doubt that there may be grounds elsewhere for regarding it so. I'd have to see those grounds in order to make a judgement. But that quote on its own...no.
I think it is just a matter of accumulation. The heaps/aggregates will grow for as long as they have not broke apart. Classifying one aspect as mental or physical is valid, but the choice to do so is only possible because something has appeared to classify; there on account of birth; the pairing of body with consciousness, which is the reason for the aggregates being there together. Point being, the manifestation of the aggregates and the acquisition of senses is the reason experience is available at all. Call it whatever you want, doesn’t matter. You couldn’t call it anything if it wasn’t there, available to be called. So, even though the form (that is the body) is the reason for all of it, that form is only knowable through dhammasañña (perception of thoughts): the senses come together in the mind (SN 48.42). In that respect, rupa (form), the living body, is the reason there is experience, but that can only be discerned on account what has appeared and knowledge developed about it.
Yes, I guess you have to decide on what you think DO is about, and what the various terms refer to. Then you can make sense of particular applications according to that set of decisions.
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by mjaviem »

SDC wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 3:56 pm ...
SN 12.15 wrote:...
... but does have some relevance here....
Indeed!
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 8:49 pm Yes, I guess you have to decide on what you think DO is about, and what the various terms refer to. Then you can make sense of particular applications according to that set of decisions.
Well said!
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by mjaviem »

Let's imagine we are far into the future. In a time when this special material has been invented. Believe it or not, once a piece is manufactured from this material it won't break or deform. We can only test it with a blowtorch or using a freezer but we can really trust that those tests --in the extreme cold of space or under this massive weights with tapered diamond tips-- have demonstrated it is not possible to open a crack in it. We can be totally sure it is eternal and in this future times it is possible to make us a body with it. The eternal body is a reality at last....

Do we see what has come to be?

And what danger can there be here? How can form cease? Mosquitoes, serpents, the wind and the burning sun can't do to this body even a scratch. Is there a nutriment that could cease and thus form with it?
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by Pulsar »

mjaviem wrote 
Mosquitoes, serpents, the wind and the burning sun can't do to this body even a scratch.
Are you sure my Dearest mjaviem?
will not the body be flattened, when extremely dehydrated by a burning sun? Isn't human body composed of: Up to 60% of the human adult body is water. According to H.H. Mitchell, Journal of Biological Chemistry 158, the brain and heart are composed of 73% water, and the lungs are about 83% water. The skin contains 64% water, muscles and kidneys are 79%, and even the bones are watery: 31%.
Are you saying the burning sun cannot dehydrate this watery human body?
Or was the Buddha speaking in metaphors? like in Kajjaniya sutta, you are thinking
of?
With cold & heat & hunger & thirst, with the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles. Because it is afflicted, it is called form.
 
Are you not misinterpreting the metaphor?
With love :candle:
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by mjaviem »

Pulsar wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 1:26 pm ... Are you sure my Dearest mjaviem?...
We are playing with our imagination here. We are trying to understand cessation of form, impermanence, what we produce, what we obtain.

If we happen to have or it happens we can have an unbreakable and eternal body, Is there still a nutriment that could cease and thus form with it? How can form cease? What danger can there be if we happen to have an eternal body or can have it? Do we see what has come to be?
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by mjaviem »

To me, what has come to be is passion for this body. There is hope now, we have found a solution, we fall in love with this body, it is salvation. It can be relied upon, it's going to be there always. Now we want it and we identify with it. No matter what, we won't lose it.

This body has come to be through our hopes and interest, it has manifested as something more than just a material thing. Now it is something real with substance. It has arisen. But we haven't seen the danger yet. This body also must have a nutriment so it depends upon this nutriment. It is then subject to change and cessation. Do you agree?

What is the cessation of this body? Although eternal it can cease to be. It is subject to cessation because we may not want it, we may lose our expectations for it so it will turn down, turn off, it will vanish, will cease to be, no more passion for it, no more attachment.
Last edited by mjaviem on Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by mjaviem »

These future times is just a fantasy, eternal objects have not been invented. Yet as long as we don't see that things won't last forever, as long as we don't pay attention to the fact that our bodies will decay and break down one day, it is like we believe our bodies are eternal, we say will break apart one day but don't really mean it. We have obtained our bodies and do not see that's only form what we got, eternal or not.
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by mjaviem »

And if we believe in rebirth, isn't an infinite series of bodies like having an eternal body?

Just dropping some thoughts in this thread. Thank you
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:14 pm And if we believe in rebirth, isn't an infinite series of bodies like having an eternal body?

Just dropping some thoughts in this thread. Thank you
If something is eternal then it does not change. Repetitions are not eternalism. This is why repeated birth, "re-birth", is not eternalism.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:33 pm If something is eternal then it does not change...
In any case, what I'm saying is that we produce things through passion and delight and without them they cease. Our desire for something may cease the moment that thing breaks down, of course. But what I believe is that when talking about arising and cessation of form, when we talk about producing form is not about the moments of manufacturing and physical destruction although they may be coincident.
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 5:23 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:33 pm If something is eternal then it does not change...
In any case, what I'm saying is that we produce things through passion and delight and without them they cease. Our desire for something may cease the moment that thing breaks down, of course. But what I believe is that when talking about arising and cessation of form, when we talk about producing form is not about the moments of manufacturing and physical destruction although they may be coincident.
Well the rūpa-khandha includes not only the body but all sensory objects including some mental ones. These arise because of a consciousness which seeks them. The rūpa-khandha then arises and falls from moment to moment, life to life.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 5:27 pm [Well the rūpa-khandha includes not only the body but all sensory objects including some mental ones. These arise because of a consciousness which seeks them. The rūpa-khandha then arises and falls from moment to moment, life to life.
I believe so, yes. To me, it doesn't matter if things last for ever or not. What is important is to not make contact, to not establish our conscious on them, to not intend anything about them, to not seek delight. This way things end because we have released from them
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Re: 📍 “Like a dog bound to a post or pillar”, SN 22.100 (In session until 4/3/22)

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 5:41 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 5:27 pm [Well the rūpa-khandha includes not only the body but all sensory objects including some mental ones. These arise because of a consciousness which seeks them. The rūpa-khandha then arises and falls from moment to moment, life to life.
I believe so, yes. To me, it doesn't matter if things last for ever or not. What is important is to not make contact, to not establish our conscious on them, to not intend anything about them, to not seek delight. This way things end because we have released from them
Yes, although of course the Buddha still does have a conscious experiences after awakening. What has changed is the relationship with that sense experience. It is one without the taints, underlying tendencies and fetters. An empty experience.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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