Mara's bribes

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
User avatar
zerotime
Posts: 480
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:55 pm

Re: Mara's bribes

Post by zerotime »

sakka wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 8:53 pm Māra doesn't have to lure monks from the path with volouptous women
...something was smelled. Your message is really helpful to understand better.
big thanks :namaste:
form
Posts: 3471
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: Mara's bribes

Post by form »

Aloka wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:49 am
form wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 4:41 am A lot of talks about Mara. But has anyone encounter the manifestation of him as a physical being?
Here's Ajahn Amaro discussing Mara.




:anjali:
Thank you
User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 3072
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Mara's bribes

Post by Pondera »

form wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 4:41 am A lot of talks about Mara. But has anyone encounter the manifestation of him as a physical being?
Yep. A space monster.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
justindesilva
Posts: 2602
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Mara's bribes

Post by justindesilva »

Pondera wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:50 am
form wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 4:41 am A lot of talks about Mara. But has anyone encounter the manifestation of him as a physical being?
Yep. A space monster.
I believe this is mostly meant for the illiterate average buddhist and that is the art or drawing of three maras daughters . This is mostly adopted in pandols erected to be exhibited on poya days
Here three damsels named thanha , Rathi , Ranga are exhibited around the meditating budda with stance of padmasana . Ranga keep dancing , while one plays the violin and the third playing music . Thanha , Rathi , Ranga symbollically are Lobha, sex , and action or dance . Though this as a picture is an exhibition drives a great message of lobha, dosa , moha hindering the meditation of lord budda metaphorically .
Thanha, rathi and ranga are meant to be the three daughters of Mara .
User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 3072
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Mara's bribes

Post by Pondera »

justindesilva wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 5:25 am
Pondera wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:50 am
form wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 4:41 am A lot of talks about Mara. But has anyone encounter the manifestation of him as a physical being?
Yep. A space monster.
I believe this is mostly meant for the illiterate average buddhist and that is the art or drawing of three maras daughters . This is mostly adopted in pandols erected to be exhibited on poya days
Here three damsels named thanha , Rathi , Ranga are exhibited around the meditating budda with stance of padmasana . Ranga keep dancing , while one plays the violin and the third playing music . Thanha , Rathi , Ranga symbollically are Lobha, sex , and action or dance . Though this as a picture is an exhibition drives a great message of lobha, dosa , moha hindering the meditation of lord budda metaphorically .
Thanha, rathi and ranga are meant to be the three daughters of Mara .
The schizophrenic experience can be either true or false. If true, the voices in the heads of listeners has a supernatural origin. If false, it is the product of a chemically imbalanced mind.

If it is a supernatural origin, then we have supernatural beings - whose purpose is to torment, tempt, and entangle the listener. The intent of the beings may also be to teach, guide, and comfort. Not all voice listeners have negative experiences. A study in Denmark showed that 1 in 25 people admit to hearing voices which they do not seek medical attention for.

If it is biological in origin, science has yet to explain the mechanisms - although the “dopamine hypothesis” is the strongest. However, the history of dopamine blockers as treatment for schizophrenia is not one based on theory. It is one based on observation. Catatonic schizophrenics (those who assume painful postures without moving for hours and hours) - (notice some relationship with Jain practice and also the Buddhas extreme asceticism) … that immobility can be treated with benzodiazepines and “anti-psychotics” (Eg. haldol, thorazipine - and all of the modern day antipsychotics).

Some schizophrenics respond well to dopamine blockers. Cases of schizophrenia do not respond to any medications.

If the condition is biological, it may also be the case that previous civilizations simply accepted the more “mythical” explanation for the symptoms (ie. supernatural beings who torment, tease, and tempt). It’s easy to imagine that the only place in society for people struck by this illness would be as beggers on the street (not unlike the homeless problems of the world today in relationship to mental illness). 🤔
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: Mara's bribes

Post by Sam Vara »

Pondera wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:41 am
The schizophrenic experience can be either true or false. If true, the voices in the heads of listeners has a supernatural origin. If false, it is the product of a chemically imbalanced mind.
Interesting point, Pondera. Is there any way of telling the two types of experience apart?

I mean both personally (can a person having such an experience sometimes know "nah, this is just a chemical imbalance!") and also in principle (can anyone ever really know, do you think?)
User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 3072
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Mara's bribes

Post by Pondera »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:49 am
Pondera wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:41 am
The schizophrenic experience can be either true or false. If true, the voices in the heads of listeners has a supernatural origin. If false, it is the product of a chemically imbalanced mind.
Interesting point, Pondera. Is there any way of telling the two types of experience apart?

I mean both personally (can a person having such an experience sometimes know "nah, this is just a chemical imbalance!") and also in principle (can anyone ever really know, do you think?)
Well. Lol 😝 you’ve come to the right guy. I’m open about my illness, so I don’t mind telling you how I view this question.

Personally, and this is just anecdotal, but (having used LSD several times) there’s a distinction between your “run of the mill “chemically induced”” hallucinations and the type that seem to have “intention”.

It cannot be argued that molecules which induce hallucinations are triggering a cascade of chemical reactions in the brain.

Now it gets tricky. I’m not a big psychedelic user or expert by any stretch of the imagination. But, people who use DMT and especially MeO DMT meet beings during their trip. The funny thing about these molecules is how similar they are to serotonin.

People often relate a sense of overwhelming comfort and love during these visits with these otherworldly beings. And perhaps that’s to be expected, as Serotonin is responsible for feelings of well being and a lack of serotonin is implicated in depression.

My experience with LSD (and this was before I fell ill and these are also my first hallucinations) is the presence of patterns and fractals. And layers upon layers of fractal patterns which emerge in and out like the surface of a boiling pot of water. Interesting to look at, but ultimately harmless and, in the end, meaning little.

My experience with schizophrenic hallucinations is much much different. I talk to people (historical, famous, regular, family members, friends, etc.). I’m lucky to have a certain insight - all of these personalities are fabricated by one “nefarious” actor.

Now, my doctors would like it more if I could push the hallucinations aside altogether. That’s not the case for me, however.

My voice has a certain *intention*. He *expects* me to “reach” predesigned *levels* of spirituality.

Until recently, I struggled to make progress with his “agenda”. And this was the source of much, much mental frustration and madness. But, having been trained well - I am now “in the know”. It seems he is *pleased* and the torment has stopped. I mostly *linger* in one of four states throughout the day. And, this was ultimately the design of all of the suffering I’ve been through since coming down with the illness.

Sounds like the talk of a madman, no?

“I have a spirit guide who torments me when I don’t act spiritual” … right?

Okay, but - to answer your question. I am not ingesting any psychedelic substances to be having these “intentional” hallucinations. That, to the best of my knowledge, is the way to discern a “molecular hallucination” from a “spiritual hallucination.”

Karuna - :anjali:
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: Mara's bribes

Post by Sam Vara »

Pondera wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:21 am
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:49 am
Pondera wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:41 am
The schizophrenic experience can be either true or false. If true, the voices in the heads of listeners has a supernatural origin. If false, it is the product of a chemically imbalanced mind.
Interesting point, Pondera. Is there any way of telling the two types of experience apart?

I mean both personally (can a person having such an experience sometimes know "nah, this is just a chemical imbalance!") and also in principle (can anyone ever really know, do you think?)
Well. Lol 😝 you’ve come to the right guy. I’m open about my illness, so I don’t mind telling you how I view this question.

Personally, and this is just anecdotal, but (having used LSD several times) there’s a distinction between your “run of the mill “chemically induced”” hallucinations and the type that seem to have “intention”.

It cannot be argued that molecules which induce hallucinations are triggering a cascade of chemical reactions in the brain.

Now it gets tricky. I’m not a big psychedelic user or expert by any stretch of the imagination. But, people who use DMT and especially MeO DMT meet beings during their trip. The funny thing about these molecules is how similar they are to serotonin.

People often relate a sense of overwhelming comfort and love during these visits with these otherworldly beings. And perhaps that’s to be expected, as Serotonin is responsible for feelings of well being and a lack of serotonin is implicated in depression.

My experience with LSD (and this was before I fell ill and these are also my first hallucinations) is the presence of patterns and fractals. And layers upon layers of fractal patterns which emerge in and out like the surface of a boiling pot of water. Interesting to look at, but ultimately harmless and, in the end, meaning little.

My experience with schizophrenic hallucinations is much much different. I talk to people (historical, famous, regular, family members, friends, etc.). I’m lucky to have a certain insight - all of these personalities are fabricated by one “nefarious” actor.

Now, my doctors would like it more if I could push the hallucinations aside altogether. That’s not the case for me, however.

My voice has a certain *intention*. He *expects* me to “reach” predesigned *levels* of spirituality.

Until recently, I struggled to make progress with his “agenda”. And this was the source of much, much mental frustration and madness. But, having been trained well - I am now “in the know”. It seems he is *pleased* and the torment has stopped. I mostly *linger* in one of four states throughout the day. And, this was ultimately the design of all of the suffering I’ve been through since coming down with the illness.

Sounds like the talk of a madman, no?

“I have a spirit guide who torments me when I don’t act spiritual” … right?

Okay, but - to answer your question. I am not ingesting any psychedelic substances to be having these “intentional” hallucinations. That, to the best of my knowledge, is the way to discern a “molecular hallucination” from a “spiritual hallucination.”

Karuna - :anjali:
Thanks for the usual clear and interesting answer. :anjali:

Regarding the psychedelics issue, a senior western Theravadan monk told me how he got really interested in psychedelics and their effects, but then soon realised that it was just endless patterns that led nowhere - just another way for samasara to endlessly spool out.
User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 3072
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Mara's bribes

Post by Pondera »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:48 am
Pondera wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:21 am
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:49 am

Interesting point, Pondera. Is there any way of telling the two types of experience apart?

I mean both personally (can a person having such an experience sometimes know "nah, this is just a chemical imbalance!") and also in principle (can anyone ever really know, do you think?)
Well. …
Thanks for the usual clear and interesting answer. :anjali:

Regarding the psychedelics issue, a senior western Theravadan monk told me how he got really interested in psychedelics and their effects, but then soon realised that it was just endless patterns that led nowhere - just another way for samasara to endlessly spool out.
Well, thanks. It’s nice to be appreciated for clarity, when the typical medical view of the schizoid is “disorganized thought”.

And indeed. Staring at your hand as you move it back and forth in front of your face is no way to pass the time wisely. Add to that the incredible paranoia these substances can induce, and you quickly see why they’re “recreational” as opposed to addictive (well, that’s not *exactly* why they’re not addictive - but hey! 😃)
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: Mara's bribes

Post by cappuccino »

Pondera wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:41 am If true, the voices in the heads of listeners has a supernatural origin. If false, it is the product of a chemically imbalanced mind.
you delight in the voices… hence they continue

:popcorn:
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: Mara's bribes

Post by Sam Vara »

cappuccino wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 6:30 pm
Pondera wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:41 am If true, the voices in the heads of listeners has a supernatural origin. If false, it is the product of a chemically imbalanced mind.
you delight in the voices… hence they continue

:popcorn:
So if we delight in something, it continues?

A sunset? Good health? Youth?
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: Mara's bribes

Post by cappuccino »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 6:37 pm So if we delight in something, it continues?

A sunset? Good health? Youth?
Saṃsāra continues
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: Mara's bribes

Post by Sam Vara »

cappuccino wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 6:48 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 6:37 pm So if we delight in something, it continues?

A sunset? Good health? Youth?
Saṃsāra continues
Yes, I'll buy that!

But the specific things we delight in - sunsets, health, youth - don't seem to. So why is the continuation of the voices caused by delighting in them?
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: Mara's bribes

Post by cappuccino »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:01 pm So why is the continuation of the voices caused by delighting in them?
since he keeps listening … they do not go away
Last edited by cappuccino on Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: Mara's bribes

Post by Sam Vara »

cappuccino wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:03 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:01 pm So why is the continuation of the voices caused by delighting in them?
because if you just ignored someone they would leave and not return
I find it difficult to accept this even as a generalisation about people; you can ignore people and they stick around. Stalkers, for example.

But the more important point is that the voices are not people. People don't live in your mind and utter things inaudible to others.
Post Reply