Bad experiences with Buddhism

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
dpcalder
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Bad experiences with Buddhism

Post by dpcalder »

How common is it for someone to conclude that their defilements are too strong to be defeated by Buddhist methods and basically give up? Thoughts on this? Is there anything in the Pali Canon that discusses this?
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Eko Care
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Re: Bad experiences with Buddhism

Post by Eko Care »

dpcalder wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 5:37 pm How common is it for someone to conclude that their defilements are too strong to be defeated by Buddhist methods and basically give up? .
It is very common.
dpcalder wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 5:37 pm Is there anything in the Pali Canon that discusses this?
Orimatīrasuttaṃ, Saṅgāravasuttaṃ
“Appakā te manussesu, ye janā pāragāmino;
Athāyaṃ itarā pajā, tīramevānudhāvati.

A few humans cross to the other shore,
The rest run up and down this shore.
But there may be many humans who never give up and cross to an illusory other shore.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Bad experiences with Buddhism

Post by Sam Vara »

dpcalder wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 5:37 pm How common is it for someone to conclude that their defilements are too strong to be defeated by Buddhist methods and basically give up?
I've known people say that, or something like it, but it's more likely that their defilements would prompt them to say something like Buddhism is useless, or too degraded, or not for them, etc.
Is there anything in the Pali Canon that discusses this?
I don't know about discusses, but this exemplifies it:
Standing to one side, the god Kāmada said to the Buddha, “It’s too hard, Blessed One! It’s just too hard!”

“They do it even though it’s hard,”
said the Buddha to Kāmada,
“the stable trainees with ethics, and immersion.
For one who has entered the homeless life,
contentment brings happiness.”

“Such contentment, Blessed One, is hard to find.”

“They find it even though it’s hard,”
said the Buddha to Kāmada,
“those who love peace of mind;
whose minds love to meditate
day and night.”

“But it’s hard, Blessed One, to immerse this mind in samādhi.”

“They become immersed in samādhi even though it’s hard,”
said the Buddha to Kāmada,
“those who love calming the faculties.
Having cut through the net of Death,
the noble ones, Kāmada, go on their way.”

“But this path, Blessed One, is rough and hard to travel.”

“Though it’s rough, hard to travel,
the noble ones, Kāmada, go on their way.
The ignoble fall headfirst
on a rough path.
But the path of the noble ones is smooth,
for the noble ones are smooth amid the rough.”
https://suttacentral.net/sn2.6/en/sujat ... ript=latin

It's worth noting that this is actually a deity who is finding it hard. I guess whether you find this depressing or encouraging depends on what kind of a god Kāmada was. Also, that the Buddha only says it is easy for those who have made some progress in ethics and meditation. Maybe it is hard for others, such that they can be discouraged and give up unless they have some level of attainment... :thinking:
Pulsar
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Re: Bad experiences with Buddhism

Post by Pulsar »

Can you pl. summarize what you mean by Buddhist methods. Do you refer to methods taught by the Buddha or methods taught by other buddhist teachers? Pali canon contains teachings of later buddhist teachers.
The Buddha taught Satipatthana, as in SN 47.42, not as in MN 10/DN 22.
A great deal of study and comprehension is involved even to understand the first Satipatthana. Many misinterpret the very first Satipatthana.
Breath meditation likewise. If you interpret the methods correctly, that would be a beginning.
As for "Was everyone happy with Buddha's methods?" if you read the agama suttas, you find instances of monks being frustrated by Buddha's teaching, and layman walking away in frustration. SA 113 writes
Then the heterodox wanderers, hearing what the venerable Rādha had said, were not pleased in their minds. They rose from their seats, blamed him, and left.
There is a sutta in the Mulasravastivada canon, where a brahmin after listening to Buddha, invited him for a meal, and cursed him. Obviously it was difficult to many even in Buddha's time, but lashing out at Buddha???
Kill the messenger?
Even if you understood the method, the execution is not easy. It truly involves constant dedication.
If one's normal livelihood is demanding, where is the time for that?
  • But with small steps in sila, samadhi and wisdom, one can make progress
This maybe why many prefer heaven
to Nibbana. It is easier to get to heaven by being generous to others, via virtue. The noble path is hard to travel, as stated in Sam Vera's comment. That is a nice sutta. But don't let the difficulty discourage you. Just imagine the amount of karma a sotapanna can wipe out. Karma remaining for him is like few drops of water compared to a large body of water, karma of the worldling.
“But this path, Blessed One, is rough and hard to travel.”
as With Kamada.
Regards :candle:
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Bad experiences with Buddhism

Post by Mahabrahma »

There’s great Optimism with the eventual Awakening of everyone. Guatama’s promise. Siddhartha means “one who’s goal has already been achieved.”
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
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Re: Bad experiences with Buddhism

Post by Bundokji »

The Buddha possessed the miracle of teaching. The other shore might not mean the same thing for everyone. The Buddha taught people according to their inclinations and abilities.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
dpcalder
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Re: Bad experiences with Buddhism

Post by dpcalder »

Mahabrahma wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 6:44 pm There’s great Optimism with the eventual Awakening of everyone. Guatama’s promise. Siddhartha means “one who’s goal has already been achieved.”
Where are we promised universal awakening?
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Re: Bad experiences with Buddhism

Post by dharmacorps »

What voice is saying "your defilements are too strong, give up"? Probably the defilements are saying that. There are many voices in our head speaking, you have to investigate what those are. Listening to the skillful ones are the basis for the practice. Many places in the Pali canon, Mara, speaks to the Buddha telling him to give up.
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Re: Bad experiences with Buddhism

Post by cappuccino »

Eko Care wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 5:51 pm But there may be many humans who never give up and cross to an illusory other shore.
illusory ?
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Eko Care
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Re: Bad experiences with Buddhism

Post by Eko Care »

cappuccino wrote:
Eko Care wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 5:51 pm But there may be many humans who never give up and cross to an illusory other shore.
illusory ?
Something like Bright-mind.
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cappuccino
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Re: Bad experiences with Buddhism

Post by cappuccino »

Eko Care wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:13 pm Something like Bright-mind.
The other shore exists
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Re: Bad experiences with Buddhism

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi dpcalder,
dpcalder wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 5:37 pm How common is it for someone to conclude that their defilements are too strong to be defeated by Buddhist methods and basically give up? Thoughts on this? Is there anything in the Pali Canon that discusses this?
I'm not completely sure what you are asking, but I think it's clear from the suttas, vinaya, and commentaries that the Path starts with development of the generosity, sila, and so on. There are cases where students wanted to go off and meditate alone, against the Buddha's advice, and it didn't go well:
....Then he went to that mango grove, and, having plunged deep into it, sat at the root of a certain tree for the day’s meditation. But while Meghiya was meditating in that mango grove he was beset mostly by three kinds of bad, unskillful thoughts, namely, sensual, malicious, and cruel thoughts.

Then he thought, “It’s incredible, it’s amazing! I’ve gone forth from the lay life to homelessness out of faith, but I’m still harassed by these three kinds of bad, unskillful thoughts: sensual, malicious, and cruel thoughts.”

Then Venerable Meghiya went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and told him what had happened.

“Meghiya, when the heart’s release is not ripe, five things help it ripen. What five?

Firstly, a mendicant has good friends, companions, and associates. This is the first thing …

Furthermore, a mendicant is ethical, restrained in the monastic code, conducting themselves well and seeking alms in suitable places. Seeing danger in the slightest fault, they keep the rules they’ve undertaken. This is the second thing …
...
https://suttacentral.net/an9.3
So it does seem clear that not developing a balanced Path, and expecting just "meditation" to do the work is not realistic.

Presumably there are also cases where there is trauma, or some other issues, where some non-Buddhist interventions, such as psychoanalysis, may be advisable. However, that would depend on the individual, and isn't something I have any knowledge of.

:heart:
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Re: Bad experiences with Buddhism

Post by SteRo »

dpcalder wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 5:37 pm How common is it for someone to conclude that their defilements are too strong to be defeated by Buddhist methods ...
There haven't been "defilements" before contacting buddhist doctrine because "defilements" is part of buddhist doctrine. So it would be a schizoid phenomenon to accept buddhist doctrine as to "defilements" but to not accept buddhist doctrine as to "methods".
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
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Kusala
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Re: Bad experiences with Buddhism

Post by Kusala »

dpcalder wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 5:37 pm How common is it for someone to conclude that their defilements are too strong to be defeated by Buddhist methods and basically give up? Thoughts on this? Is there anything in the Pali Canon that discusses this?

"Twenty five years since my going forth,
and no peace of awareness
— not a finger-snap's worth —
attained.
Having gained no oneness of mind,
I was wracked with lust.
Wailing, with my arms upheld,
I ran amok from my dwelling —
"Or... or shall I take the knife?
What's the use of life to me?
If I were to renounce the training,
what sort of death would I have?"

So, taking a razor,
I sat down on a bed.
And there was the razor,
placed ready to cut my own vein,
when apt attention arose in me,
the drawbacks appeared,
disenchantment stood
at an even keel:

With that, my heart was released.
See the Dhamma's true rightness!
The three knowledges
have been attained;
the Awakened One's bidding,
done."


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
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seeker242
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Re: Bad experiences with Buddhism

Post by seeker242 »

Seems common in people with little faith or understanding who also cannot reason correctly. I personally mostly have seen it in people who think in an all or nothing/black and white approach. AKA, I can't attain enlightenment in this lifetime, too much defilement. Therefore, any practice is pointless since I won't be attaining enlightenment anyway. That's not a reasonable way to think. And it doesn't make any sense according to the teaching of Buddhism. The notion of kamma dictates that it's impossible for legitimate practicing to have no beneficial effects. Good action always has good effects, somewhere, somehow. Such excuses are also said by people who are just lazy. They don't want to make an effort, so they rationalize up an excuse so they don't have to make the effort.
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