EBT-People Don't Have a Base. (An Evidence)

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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Re: EBT-People Don't Have a Base. (An Evidence)

Post by Ṭhānuttamo »

frank k wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 11:26 am I'd like to look at the commentary again. Does it actually say 5 senses are shut off? Or does it simply say both mental desire, and physical objects of desire are not present in that moment?
Greetings in Dhamma, Frank!
I think Ā. Guṇaratana, in his "Critical Analysis of the Jhānas", has translated and discussed the relevant passage quite faithfully. Rupert Gethin's "The Buddhist Path to Awakening" also takes it up, when I remember correctly. Just some references off the top of my head ... :)

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Re: EBT-People Don't Have a Base. (An Evidence)

Post by frank k »

Thanks Bhante, but could you be more specific? I downloaded Bhante G's book, and only so far see this passage that I have seen before in Vism., the Tika subcmy for the first jhāna simile.
This statement raises the question how mental qualities like rapture and happiness can suffuse a physical substance like the body. The subcommentary provides an answer. It says that “the material form produced by consciousness suffuses every area where there is material form produced by kamma.”1 (Wr. tr.). The “material form produced by kamma” is the yogi’s physical body. The physical body contains material phenomena of four modes of origination; that is, material phenomena produced by kamma ( kammaja.

rūpa. ), by consciousness ( cittaja. rūpa. ), by temperature ( utuja. rūpa. ), and by food ( āhāraja. rūpa. ).2 When the yogin attains to jhāna, the jhāna consciousness produces a subtle kind of material form which suffuses his physical body. Since this material form is produced by a consciousness associated with rapture and happiness, the impression is created that rapture and happiness themselves suffuse the whole physical body.
What part of the book talks about the cmy for kāmehi as 'object of desire, not desire', and viveka from kāmehi as '5 senses shut down'?

metta,
Frank

A. Bhikkhu wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 4:30 pm
frank k wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 11:26 am I'd like to look at the commentary again. Does it actually say 5 senses are shut off? Or does it simply say both mental desire, and physical objects of desire are not present in that moment?
Greetings in Dhamma, Frank!
I think Ā. Guṇaratana, in his "Critical Analysis of the Jhānas", has translated and discussed the relevant passage quite faithfully. Rupert Gethin's "The Buddhist Path to Awakening" also takes it up, when I remember correctly. Just some references off the top of my head ... :)

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Re: EBT-People Don't Have a Base. (An Evidence)

Post by frank k »

you wrote in an earlier message:
It also stands in relation to vivicca akusalehi dhammehi, which, obviously, must refer to the mental aspect alongside the preceding physical, perfectly in line with, for example, the Itivuttaka commentary quoted earlier ...
I looked at the Iti 72 cmy translation that you quoted again, and don't follow how that implies 5 senses shutdown. It only says that if one has been secluded from desire for an object, one must also be secluded from that object also. If you go into the forest to be secluded from objects of desire, that does not imply your 5 senses are shut down as soon as you entered the forest and are physically some distance from objects of desire. As another example, if chocolate cake is sitting in front of you and you close your eyes and plug up your nose, you've just physically secluded yourself from being able to detect the cake, but your 5 senses are not shut down.

As far as vivicca akusalehi dhammehi, I agree with Abhidhamma Vb., which says askusala dhamma represent all 5 hindrances in that first jhāna, and I would say even whatever other akusala 5 hindrances does not cover. The reason kamehi is redundantly and listed first, is the same reason as everywhere else in the suttas where kāma is conspicuously listed first, always public enemy #1 and deserves special mention and attention.

But just like with Iti 72, even if you say kāmehi is physical and akusala dhamma is mental, what exactly is the part you're interpreting 5 senses being shut off?

metta, Frank

A. Bhikkhu wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 4:30 pm
frank k wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 11:26 am I'd like to look at the commentary again. Does it actually say 5 senses are shut off? Or does it simply say both mental desire, and physical objects of desire are not present in that moment?
Greetings in Dhamma, Frank!
I think Ā. Guṇaratana, in his "Critical Analysis of the Jhānas", has translated and discussed the relevant passage quite faithfully. Rupert Gethin's "The Buddhist Path to Awakening" also takes it up, when I remember correctly. Just some references off the top of my head ... :)

Mettā 2u!
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Re: EBT-People Don't Have a Base. (An Evidence)

Post by Ṭhānuttamo »

frank k wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 8:36 am [...] metta, Frank
Dear Frank,
let's continue later. I definitely want to delve deeper into this important subject, and likely there will be another occasion to discuss it on Dhammawheel or somewhere else.

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Re: EBT-People Don't Have a Base. (An Evidence)

Post by frank k »

Dear Ven. T., looking forward to it.
One more thing I thought of after our discussion to chew on before we meet again.
The Tika subcommentary on the 4 jhāna similes physical nature with a subtle ethereal pleasure body, obviously to try to explain how jhāna could be redefined in terms of a 'mind only kāya' in Abhidhamma without contradicting what both commentary and subcommentary are acknowledging as the Buddha's referring to a physical body with the 4 jhānas in suttas.

The talk of a subtle nonphysical pleasure body, often is brought up as if it explains 5 senses being shut down in Vism. redefinition of jhāna.
Why?
Anyone skilled in qigong or first 3 jhānas as taught in sutta embodied jhāna can experience the same ethereal pleasure body while wide awake, eyes open, standing, and even walking around.
Just as someone can pee in their bed while they're awake, they can pee in their bed while dreaming. It doesn't require 5 senses shut off.

metta,
Frank


A. Bhikkhu wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 1:21 pm
frank k wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 8:36 am [...] metta, Frank
Dear Frank,
let's continue later. I definitely want to delve deeper into this important subject, and likely there will be another occasion to discuss it on Dhammawheel or somewhere else.

Mettā 2u!
Ṭhānuttamo
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Re: EBT-People Don't Have a Base. (An Evidence)

Post by wenjaforever »

Maybe they just wanted to top Theravada, like when they created the vegan movement to make appear that vegetarians aren't the most moral people. Like ultra orthodox Judaism, etc.
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
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Re: EBT-People Don't Have a Base. (An Evidence)

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wenjaforever wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 10:20 pm Maybe they just wanted to top Theravada, like when they created the vegan movement to make appear that vegetarians aren't the most moral people. Like ultra orthodox Judaism, etc.
What does this even mean? What do vegans and Judaism have to do with EBT followers?

Are you saying that the EBT people feel that they are the most pure or most superior? If so, that can be found within any tradition, sub-tradition, even among Classical, Thai Forest, Mahayana, etc adherents. Even if one feels that way, it's best to still proceed with tolerance; as everyone is at their own level or stage of spiritual progress.
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Re: EBT-People Don't Have a Base. (An Evidence)

Post by wenjaforever »

DNS wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 10:27 pmWhat does this even mean? What do vegans and Judaism have to do with EBT followers?

Are you saying that the EBT people feel that they are the most pure or most superior? If so, that can be found within any tradition, sub-tradition, even among Classical, Thai Forest, Mahayana, etc adherents. Even if one feels that way, it's best to still proceed with tolerance; as everyone is at their own level or stage of spiritual progress.
Spiritual progress stage? More like low karma level.
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
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Re: EBT-People Don't Have a Base. (An Evidence)

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wenjaforever wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 10:45 pm Spiritual progress stage? More like low karma level.
Which one? Anyone who disagrees with your position(s)?
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Re: EBT-People Don't Have a Base. (An Evidence)

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DNS wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 10:49 pmWhich one? Anyone who disagrees with your position(s)?
I guess so. What's your point? Do you have any specific question?
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
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Re: EBT-People Don't Have a Base. (An Evidence)

Post by DNS »

wenjaforever wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 10:51 pm
DNS wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 10:49 pmWhich one? Anyone who disagrees with your position(s)?
I guess so. What's your point? Do you have any specific question?
Just sayin' that sounds very intolerant and not very useful or productive, not a good mental state for making progress, imo.
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Re: EBT-People Don't Have a Base. (An Evidence)

Post by wenjaforever »

DNS wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 10:53 pmJust sayin' that sounds very intolerant and not very useful or productive, not a good mental state for making progress, imo.
Tell me my friend, do you think you're equal to someone who gave up their right to the throne of an absolute monarchy, or at least a feodal estate? And live in the forest with wolves and tigers with no money at all. I'm just saying you never had that kind of option.
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
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Re: EBT-People Don't Have a Base. (An Evidence)

Post by Coëmgenu »

You have money enough to get on the Internet. Is your forest close to a convenient public library where you do all your posting?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: EBT-People Don't Have a Base. (An Evidence)

Post by wenjaforever »

I don't even aim for Nirvana. You see the drastic difference of intelligence displayed here? This is why we have to be frank. It doesn't matter how hard you try to explain color to a colourblind person, they will never understand it before seeing it themselves :mrgreen:
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
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Re: EBT-People Don't Have a Base. (An Evidence)

Post by DNS »

wenjaforever wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 11:04 pm Tell me my friend, do you think you're equal to someone who gave up their right to the throne of an absolute monarchy, or at least a feodal estate? And live in the forest with wolves and tigers with no money at all. I'm just saying you never had that kind of option.
I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I don't go around regularly checking people out to see if I'm superior or inferior to them. What would be the point of that?

Did you give up the right to the throne? Or are you referring to the Buddha?
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