Abhidhamma question

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Abhidhamma question

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 12:30 pm
I'm afraid that my sarcastic & rhetorical questions seem to have befuddled you... apologies.
Sounds like you weren’t after any dialogue at all then. Mocking Abhidhammikas isn’t helpful.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Eko Care
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Re: Abhidhamma question

Post by Eko Care »

retrofuturist wrote: Don't you think that re-definition is a tad self-serving?
Do you think that you have a reasonable way to know that it was not the meaning meant by the Lord?
BrokenBones wrote:
Though you try to be confident in the conclusion you made here, your questions in the OP indicate that your mind is not confident with it.
I'm afraid that my sarcastic & rhetorical questions seem to have befuddled you... apologies.
I'm afraid that your attempt to make your unconfident position a bit more confident by posting sarcastic & rhetorical questions was apparently unsuccessful.
BrokenBones
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Re: Abhidhamma question

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 1:30 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 12:30 pm
I'm afraid that my sarcastic & rhetorical questions seem to have befuddled you... apologies.
Sounds like you weren’t after any dialogue at all then. Mocking Abhidhammikas isn’t helpful.
Merely highlighting inconsistencies. Espousing teachings that aren't from the Buddha as Buddha Dhamma is even less helpful.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Abhidhamma question

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 2:10 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 1:30 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 12:30 pm
I'm afraid that my sarcastic & rhetorical questions seem to have befuddled you... apologies.
Sounds like you weren’t after any dialogue at all then. Mocking Abhidhammikas isn’t helpful.
Merely highlighting inconsistencies. Espousing teachings that aren't from the Buddha as Buddha Dhamma is even less helpful.
No, you were mocking.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
BrokenBones
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Re: Abhidhamma question

Post by BrokenBones »

Eko Care wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 1:46 pm
retrofuturist wrote: Don't you think that re-definition is a tad self-serving?
Do you think that you have a reasonable way to know that it was not the meaning meant by the Lord?
BrokenBones wrote:
Though you try to be confident in the conclusion you made here, your questions in the OP indicate that your mind is not confident with it.
I'm afraid that my sarcastic & rhetorical questions seem to have befuddled you... apologies.
I'm afraid that your attempt to make your unconfident position a bit more confident by posting sarcastic & rhetorical questions was apparently unsuccessful.
How so? You seem evasive to straightforward & logical questions... however sarcastic they may be.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Abhidhamma question

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ontheway wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 1:56 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:46 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 10:45 pmWhich Abhidhamma is the 'true' one?
Obviously the ur-version of the lost Mahāsāṃghika Abhidharma was the true one. It's lost. No manuscripts survive, though plenty of evidence for its past existence remains.

Here that, Buddhists? Just give up. The real one's dead and gone.

(This post is deeply sarcastic.)
Isn't Mahasanghika Abhidharma inherited by Mahayana tradition?
I think you are thinking of Abhidharmasamuccaya maybe. In the Tibetan tradition, it is sometimes called "the Higher Abhidharma" and even "the Mahayana Abhidharma." This text however is believed to be more indebted to the lost Mahīśāsaka Abhidharma. The Mahīśāsaka are the "blue-robed ones" who established a presence in Sri Lanka briefly before mysteriously disappearing. Scholars think that the Sri Lankan Mahīśāsakas were absorbed into the Theravadin sect.

There once was a Mahayana Abhidharma, likely several, but they seem to have been lost to the sands of time. No copies of them exist anymore. It is only preserved in quotations from Mahayana writers preserved in sastras. This is the case with many of the Buddha's sutras. We have lost most Buddhist documents in general due to decomposition and destruction. A tiny rhetorical handful survive, including the Pali Canon. But even the Pali Canon is not as complete as it once was. When Venerable Buddhaghosa quotes gathas from the suttas, not all of these gathas are accounted for in the modern Pali Canon. Certainly, that it was preserved as well as it is today is a marvel. It's nothing to shake a stick at. But IMO, from studying Buddhist history, much more documents have been lost than documents that have been preserved.

Many of these lost sutras are only preserved in quotations from later masters, like Venerables Buddhaghosa, Vasubandhu, etc., who cite them while copies were still extant.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sun Apr 24, 2022 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Abhidhamma question

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 2:17 pm
Ontheway wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 1:56 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:46 pm Obviously the ur-version of the lost Mahāsāṃghika Abhidharma was the true one. It's lost. No manuscripts survive, though plenty of evidence for its past existence remains.

Here that, Buddhists? Just give up. The real one's dead and gone.

(This post is deeply sarcastic.)
Isn't Mahasanghika Abhidharma inherited by Mahayana tradition?
I think you are thinking of Abhidharmasamuccaya maybe. In the Tibetan tradition, it is sometimes called "the Higher Abhidharma" and even "the Mahayana Abhidharma." This text however is believed to be more indebted to the lost Mahīśāsaka Abhidharma. The Mahīśāsaka are the "blue-robed ones" who established a presence in Sri Lanka briefly before mysteriously disappearing. Scholars think that the Sri Lankan Mahīśāsakas were absorbed into the Theravadin sect.

There once was a Mahayana Abhidharma, likely several, but they seem to have been lost to the sands of time. No copies of them exist anymore. It is only preserved in quotations from Mahayana writers preserved in sastras. This is the case with many of the Buddha's sutras. We have lost most Buddhist documents in general due to decomposition and destruction. A tiny rhetorical handful survive, including the Pali Canon. But even the Pali Canon is not as complete as it once was. When Venerable Buddhaghosa quotes gathas from the suttas, not all of these gathas are accounted for in the modern Pali Canon. Certainly, that it was preserved as well as it was today is a marvel. It's nothing to shake a stick at. But IMO, from studying Buddhist history, much more documents have been lost than documents that have been preserved.

Many of these lost sutras are only preserved in quotations from later masters, like Venerables Buddhaghosa, Vasubandhu, etc., who cite them while copies were still extant.
Yogacara is basically a form of Mahayana Abhidharma.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Abhidhamma question

Post by Coëmgenu »

That's how it is treated in the Tibetan tradition, yes.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Ontheway
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Re: Abhidhamma question

Post by Ontheway »

The Buddha said clearly in the AN5.73 that the Dhamma consists of nine aspects:
1-the-origin-evolution-and-meaning-of-tipitaka-11-320.jpg
1-the-origin-evolution-and-meaning-of-tipitaka-11-320.jpg (21.58 KiB) Viewed 314 times
And Veyyakarana (explanation) is exactly referring to Abhidhamma teachings as stated by Atthasalini. And Sauntrantikas will never learn this fact that Suttas aren't the only aspect of Buddha's teachings and they were delivered to the listeners according to a certain situation, with that said, there will be incompleteness within every sutta. Taking Anattalakkhana Sutta as an example,
“Therefore, bhikkhus, any kind of form whatsoever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, all form should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’
What is inferior? What is gross? What is subtle? What "correct wisdom" meant by the Buddha?

Suciloma Sutta (SN2.5)
So Suciloma the yakkha approached the Blessed One and on arrival leaned his body up against the Blessed One. The Blessed One leaned his body away. So Suciloma the yakkha said to the Blessed One, “Are you afraid of me, contemplative?”

“No, I’m not afraid of you, friend, just that your touch is evil.”
What is the meaning of "your touch is evil" phrase uttered by the Blessed One? Why the Blessed One, as He is the Teacher of Gods and Men, said so?

People can guess for their meaning based on their limited understanding or using their own language terminology, but that wouldn't be Buddha's real teachings but merely personal guesses. And because of this effort of trying to figure out the words by limited understanding and created wild interpretations, more and more bizarre groups of "Buddhist" appeared in the world now.

But, if one takes all 3 Pitakas or the nine angas altogether, then the teaching is pure, perfect, and complete like a full moon.
Last edited by Ontheway on Sun Apr 24, 2022 2:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Ontheway
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Re: Abhidhamma question

Post by Ontheway »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 2:17 pm
Ontheway wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 1:56 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:46 pm Obviously the ur-version of the lost Mahāsāṃghika Abhidharma was the true one. It's lost. No manuscripts survive, though plenty of evidence for its past existence remains.

Here that, Buddhists? Just give up. The real one's dead and gone.

(This post is deeply sarcastic.)
Isn't Mahasanghika Abhidharma inherited by Mahayana tradition?
I think you are thinking of Abhidharmasamuccaya maybe. In the Tibetan tradition, it is sometimes called "the Higher Abhidharma" and even "the Mahayana Abhidharma." This text however is believed to be more indebted to the lost Mahīśāsaka Abhidharma. The Mahīśāsaka are the "blue-robed ones" who established a presence in Sri Lanka briefly before mysteriously disappearing. Scholars think that the Sri Lankan Mahīśāsakas were absorbed into the Theravadin sect.

There once was a Mahayana Abhidharma, likely several, but they seem to have been lost to the sands of time. No copies of them exist anymore. It is only preserved in quotations from Mahayana writers preserved in sastras. This is the case with many of the Buddha's sutras. We have lost most Buddhist documents in general due to decomposition and destruction. A tiny rhetorical handful survive, including the Pali Canon. But even the Pali Canon is not as complete as it once was. When Venerable Buddhaghosa quotes gathas from the suttas, not all of these gathas are accounted for in the modern Pali Canon. Certainly, that it was preserved as well as it is today is a marvel. It's nothing to shake a stick at. But IMO, from studying Buddhist history, much more documents have been lost than documents that have been preserved.

Many of these lost sutras are only preserved in quotations from later masters, like Venerables Buddhaghosa, Vasubandhu, etc., who cite them while copies were still extant.
Thanks for the info. :thumbsup:
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Joe.c
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Re: Abhidhamma question

Post by Joe.c »

Eko Care wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 11:20 am The word 'Sutta' is described as 'Three Baskets' in the Atthakata.
Er... I bet buddha never even know there is three baskets. 😅

He only refers to dhamma-vinaya or sutta-vinaya.
What the Atthakata says is the otherwise.
Well any book can say anything. Now proof it yourself with your direct experience or direct personal insight here and now.

Don't just rely on book. There is no book in other realm, do you know that? 😁

When the body die, you can't carry the book with you. Do you realize that? Let alone this worldly knowledge, it will keep on changing.

But true dhamma will never change ever. 😁
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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Re: Abhidhamma question

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Eko Care,
retrofuturist wrote: Don't you think that re-definition is a tad self-serving?
Eko Care wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 1:46 pm Do you think that you have a reasonable way to know that it was not the meaning meant by the Lord?
Yes, because the Theravada Abhidhamma didn't exist until approximately three centuries after his parinibbana, and utterly fails the test of the Four Great References outlined in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta.

If you're going to suggest that the Buddha referred to that which he hadn't even heard of, which was still centuries away from even being invented, then that implausible position is on you to substantiate with non-partisan resources, rather than self-serving re-definition (aka desecration) of His words.

None of which is to say don't follow the Abhidhamma... only don't sully the Buddhavacana itself with self-serving partisanship.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Eko Care
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Re: Abhidhamma question

Post by Eko Care »

BrokenBones wrote: I am very grateful for the Theravada sect in preserving the Buddha's words and maintaining a pure sangha... it doesn't mean I have to buy into their more dubious teachings.
Is there any acceptable reason to buy 'some other opinion' over the pure sangha's opinion?
What is the possibility for impure people to have correct opinions?
BrokenBones
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Re: Abhidhamma question

Post by BrokenBones »

Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 5:19 pm
BrokenBones wrote: I am very grateful for the Theravada sect in preserving the Buddha's words and maintaining a pure sangha... it doesn't mean I have to buy into their more dubious teachings.
Is there any acceptable reason to buy 'some other opinion' over the pure sangha's opinion?
What is the possibility for impure people to have correct opinions?
🤷‍♂️

I'm sure there are many virtuous people with wrong view but not so many un-virtuous people with right view.

Preservation of the teachings & keeping vinaya... that's wonderful... but there should have been a full stop after that... instead we have 17 mind moments, rewriting of jhanas, laughable transmission stories and commentaries that start talking about atomic theory. Commentaries are fine as long they don't drift off into the realms of the ridiculous.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Abhidhamma question

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:31 pm
Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 5:19 pm
BrokenBones wrote: I am very grateful for the Theravada sect in preserving the Buddha's words and maintaining a pure sangha... it doesn't mean I have to buy into their more dubious teachings.
Is there any acceptable reason to buy 'some other opinion' over the pure sangha's opinion?
What is the possibility for impure people to have correct opinions?
🤷‍♂️

I'm sure there are many virtuous people with wrong view but not so many un-virtuous people with right view.

Preservation of the teachings & keeping vinaya... that's wonderful... but there should have been a full stop after that... instead we have 17 mind moments, rewriting of jhanas, laughable transmission stories and commentaries that start talking about atomic theory. Commentaries are fine as long they don't drift off into the realms of the ridiculous.
You think atomic theory is ridiculous?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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