classical sunni islam sees buddha as a prophet and buddhists as' saved '

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Tutareture
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classical sunni islam sees buddha as a prophet and buddhists as' saved '

Post by Tutareture »

אַל-תְּהִי צַדִּיק הַרְבֵּה, וְאַל-תִּתְחַכַּם יוֹתֵר: לָמָּה, תִּשּׁוֹמֵם. Be not righteous overmuch; neither make thyself overwise; why shouldest thou destroy thyself? -Ecclesiastes 7:16
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Re: classical sunni islam sees buddha as a prophet and buddhists as' saved '

Post by DNS »

I read the Quran when I was 14 years old (many decades ago) and seem to recall it written somewhere where it says Allah was with the teacher at Benares. After I became Buddhist, I went back to my Quran looking for it, but couldn't find it. Do you know which surah and verse it is in?

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Re: classical sunni islam sees buddha as a prophet and buddhists as' saved '

Post by Tutareture »

DNS wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 5:21 pm
I read the Quran when I was 14 years old (many decades ago) and seem to recall it written somewhere where it says Allah was with the teacher at Benares. After I became Buddhist, I went back to my Quran looking for it, but couldn't find it. Do you know which surah and verse it is in?

See also our sister forum on comparative religions:
https://www.dharmapaths.com/
I don't think the Qu'ran has a ayah like that but generally the sunni muslim scholars saw Buddha(PBUH)as Khidr or Dhu al-Kifl.also buddhist enlightenment was seen as the state of Khadir,wich is direct inspiration from Allah(a'za wa jal),access to his knowledge from what he wills,losing the Nafs(ego)in the Absolute(a'za wa jal),I think its the same or similar as Fanaa fillah the islamic nirvana.

Buddhists and their tempels,properties etc are protected under islam especially under the maaliki school of sharia'h and this is the way of the rightly guided Companions and the Salaf in dealing with the buddhists.
אַל-תְּהִי צַדִּיק הַרְבֵּה, וְאַל-תִּתְחַכַּם יוֹתֵר: לָמָּה, תִּשּׁוֹמֵם. Be not righteous overmuch; neither make thyself overwise; why shouldest thou destroy thyself? -Ecclesiastes 7:16
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Re: classical sunni islam sees buddha as a prophet and buddhists as' saved '

Post by DNS »

Googling for it now, I found this:
In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful.

1. By the fig and the olive.
2. And Mount Sinai.
3. And this safe land.
4. We created man in the best design.
5. Then reduced him to the lowest of the low.
6. Except those who believe and do righteous deeds; for them is a reward without end.
7. So why do you still reject the religion?
8. Is God not the Wisest of the wise?
Quran 95:3
The fig may be referring to the fig tree (Bodhi Tree of Buddhism).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautama_B ... ions#Islam
and also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhu_al-Kifl
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Re: classical sunni islam sees buddha as a prophet and buddhists as' saved '

Post by tharpa »

DNS wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:52 pm Googling for it now, I found this:
In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful.

1. By the fig and the olive.
Quran 95:3
The fig may be referring to the fig tree (Bodhi Tree of Buddhism).
It's a stretch. The Middle East is arid. Fig trees are common and important. Figs are mentioned in the Hadith.
May all beings, in or out of the womb, be well, happy and peaceful.
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Re: classical sunni islam sees buddha as a prophet and buddhists as' saved '

Post by DNS »

tharpa wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 1:01 am It's a stretch. The Middle East is arid. Fig trees are common and important. Figs are mentioned in the Hadith.
That's what I thought too. Maybe there's something in the OP link with better evidence?
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Re: classical sunni islam sees buddha as a prophet and buddhists as' saved '

Post by Bundokji »

I have never heard of Dhu Al-Kifl, but Al Khader is a unique story in Koran which makes a distinction between the messenger (Moses) and someone with more direct knowledge (Al Khader). His story has contradictions with the teachings of the Buddha though, as Ariyas are known not to kill, while Al khader did. Sufis are said to emphasize this story to justify their esoteric ways of practicing. Any story that implies the existence of a reality beyond appearances appeal to such mindset.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: classical sunni islam sees buddha as a prophet and buddhists as' saved '

Post by Tutareture »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:27 am I have never heard of Dhu Al-Kifl, but Al Khader is a unique story in Koran which makes a distinction between the messenger (Moses) and someone with more direct knowledge (Al Khader). His story has contradictions with the teachings of the Buddha though, as Ariyas are known not to kill, while Al khader did. Sufis are said to emphasize this story to justify their esoteric ways of practicing. Any story that implies the existence of a reality beyond appearances appeal to such mindset.
from what I understand alkhidr killed as a kind of expedient means,wich is not incompatible with Mahayana/Vajrayana atleast.
אַל-תְּהִי צַדִּיק הַרְבֵּה, וְאַל-תִּתְחַכַּם יוֹתֵר: לָמָּה, תִּשּׁוֹמֵם. Be not righteous overmuch; neither make thyself overwise; why shouldest thou destroy thyself? -Ecclesiastes 7:16
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Re: classical sunni islam sees buddha as a prophet and buddhists as' saved '

Post by Tutareture »

Honestely,outside of ignorance among ordinary muslims ,I think the Salafis are a huge threat to the world and buddhist-muslim relations because of their whack interpretation of fiqh and shari'ah.and not to mention their strange conception of the absolute(being mujassimah or ascribing a body to the God,and literal interpretations of God's attributes contrary to the Salaf(May Allah be pleased with all of them) they 'claim'to follow)

this is why I think Habib ali Jifri al Yemeni and his institute is so fundemental in the world and islamic world today,as sufism/classical sunni islam is nonviolent(even against animals,you cannot kill a animal unless necassery and a unjustly killed animal will testify against the muslim on the day of judgement according to the prophet),promotes Ihsaan(good kind behaviour),i'lm(knowledge),A'ql(rational thinking)and also respects diversity of opinion.

Salafism,wich was created by the British and the freemasons,has stained islam and is actually even more of a threat to other muslims because of their Takfiri policies.

the Ironic thing,is that Ibn Taymiyah(the precursor to ibn abdul wahhab) was a Sufi.He did great miracles,had Kashf(supernatural knowledge from Allah of the future,being able to see hell and paradise,people in the grave and talk to them etc)wich Salafis deny the Muslim Saints can have and even wore Taweez/Ta'weedh for protection(Ta'weedh is an islamic amulet/talisman) and had Siddhis.

I have seen how saudi funded theological institutes have ruined Yemen,wich is traditionally Sufi with a shafi'i Fiqh,and is behind the violent destruction of that beautiful country and people.

truly Puritan islam,is actually Sufism and classical sunni islam.
אַל-תְּהִי צַדִּיק הַרְבֵּה, וְאַל-תִּתְחַכַּם יוֹתֵר: לָמָּה, תִּשּׁוֹמֵם. Be not righteous overmuch; neither make thyself overwise; why shouldest thou destroy thyself? -Ecclesiastes 7:16
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Re: classical sunni islam sees buddha as a prophet and buddhists as' saved '

Post by Bundokji »

Tutareture wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 11:37 am Honestely,outside of ignorance among ordinary muslims ,I think the Salafis are a huge threat to the world and buddhist-muslim relations because of their whack interpretation of fiqh and shari'ah.and not to mention their strange conception of the absolute(being mujassimah or ascribing a body to the God,and literal interpretations of God's attributes contrary to the Salaf(May Allah be pleased with all of them) they 'claim'to follow)

this is why I think Habib ali Jifri al Yemeni and his institute is so fundemental in the world and islamic world today,as sufism/classical sunni islam is nonviolent(even against animals,you cannot kill a animal unless necassery and a unjustly killed animal will testify against the muslim on the day of judgement according to the prophet),promotes Ihsaan(good kind behaviour),i'lm(knowledge),A'ql(rational thinking)and also respects diversity of opinion.

Salafism,wich was created by the British and the freemasons,has stained islam and is actually even more of a threat to other muslims because of their Takfiri policies.

the Ironic thing,is that Ibn Taymiyah(the precursor to ibn abdul wahhab) was a Sufi.He did great miracles,had Kashf(supernatural knowledge from Allah of the future,being able to see hell and paradise,people in the grave and talk to them etc)wich Salafis deny the Muslim Saints can have and even wore Taweez/Ta'weedh for protection(Ta'weedh is an islamic amulet/talisman) and had Siddhis.

I have seen how saudi funded theological institutes have ruined Yemen,wich is traditionally Sufi with a shafi'i Fiqh,and is behind the violent destruction of that beautiful country and people.

truly Puritan islam,is actually Sufism and classical sunni islam.
Modern Salfism as led by Mohammed ibn abdul wahhab was a reform movement to the excesses of the sufis. Ibn Taymiyah also criticized their excesses. The reform movement became itself an excess pending another reform. By and large, modern Islam became reduced to rituals devoid of any depth or wisdom.

The excesses of sufism manifest itself as superstitions under the disguise of knowledge of deeper reality where everything goes! The example you provided in a previous post of "expedient means" shows how under this rationale, everything is permissible to those in the know. In the Buddha's teachings, it is impossible for an ariya to break the precepts. While knowledge of deeper realities is acknowledged as per the Phena sutta (the analogy of sapwood and heartwood), knowledge of its void nature seems to be the point of emphasis. Such knowledge does not translate into a carte blanche to do whatever one pleases as with the story of Al Khadir.

In my view, if one is going to use the good teachings to increase neurosis, then one is better without it. I am becoming more fond of puthujjanas seeing what i see in some spiritual circles. Being a sane ordinary person is becoming increasingly rare.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: classical sunni islam sees buddha as a prophet and buddhists as' saved '

Post by Tutareture »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:52 pm
Tutareture wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 11:37 am Honestely,outside of ignorance among ordinary muslims ,I think the Salafis are a huge threat to the world and buddhist-muslim relations because of their whack interpretation of fiqh and shari'ah.and not to mention their strange conception of the absolute(being mujassimah or ascribing a body to the God,and literal interpretations of God's attributes contrary to the Salaf(May Allah be pleased with all of them) they 'claim'to follow)

this is why I think Habib ali Jifri al Yemeni and his institute is so fundemental in the world and islamic world today,as sufism/classical sunni islam is nonviolent(even against animals,you cannot kill a animal unless necassery and a unjustly killed animal will testify against the muslim on the day of judgement according to the prophet),promotes Ihsaan(good kind behaviour),i'lm(knowledge),A'ql(rational thinking)and also respects diversity of opinion.

Salafism,wich was created by the British and the freemasons,has stained islam and is actually even more of a threat to other muslims because of their Takfiri policies.

the Ironic thing,is that Ibn Taymiyah(the precursor to ibn abdul wahhab) was a Sufi.He did great miracles,had Kashf(supernatural knowledge from Allah of the future,being able to see hell and paradise,people in the grave and talk to them etc)wich Salafis deny the Muslim Saints can have and even wore Taweez/Ta'weedh for protection(Ta'weedh is an islamic amulet/talisman) and had Siddhis.

I have seen how saudi funded theological institutes have ruined Yemen,wich is traditionally Sufi with a shafi'i Fiqh,and is behind the violent destruction of that beautiful country and people.

truly Puritan islam,is actually Sufism and classical sunni islam.
Modern Salfism as led by Mohammed ibn abdul wahhab was a reform movement to the excesses of the sufis. Ibn Taymiyah also criticized their excesses. The reform movement became itself an excess pending another reform. By and large, modern Islam became reduced to rituals devoid of any depth or wisdom.

The excesses of sufism manifest itself as superstitions under the disguise of knowledge of deeper reality where everything goes! The example you provided in a previous post of "expedient means" shows how under this rationale, everything is permissible to those in the know. In the Buddha's teachings, it is impossible for an ariya to break the precepts. While knowledge of deeper realities is acknowledged as per the Phena sutta (the analogy of sapwood and heartwood), knowledge of its void nature seems to be the point of emphasis. Such knowledge does not translate into a carte blanche to do whatever one pleases as with the story of Al Khadir.

In my view, if one is going to use the good teachings to increase neurosis, then one is better without it. I am becoming more fond of puthujjanas seeing what i see in some spiritual circles. Being a sane ordinary person is becoming increasingly rare.
The excesses of some forms of Sufism like Barelvis is not real sufism.
listen to all of this,especially the latter part:


as far as I know,in mahayana/vajrayana a buddha can break the precepts under expedient means.
אַל-תְּהִי צַדִּיק הַרְבֵּה, וְאַל-תִּתְחַכַּם יוֹתֵר: לָמָּה, תִּשּׁוֹמֵם. Be not righteous overmuch; neither make thyself overwise; why shouldest thou destroy thyself? -Ecclesiastes 7:16
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Re: classical sunni islam sees buddha as a prophet and buddhists as' saved '

Post by Bundokji »

Tutareture wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:45 pm as far as I know,in mahayana/vajrayana a buddha can break the precepts under expedient means.
Those who do seem to overlook the slippery slope in this mindset. Anything can be said to be expedient means including their claim that the Buddha can break the precepts under expedient means.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: classical sunni islam sees buddha as a prophet and buddhists as' saved '

Post by wenjaforever »

Buddhas are not prophets. Prophets worship a Brahma who thinks he's the most high. Buddhas understand the true nature of the dharma.
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
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Re: classical sunni islam sees buddha as a prophet and buddhists as' saved '

Post by Dan74 »

As far as ethics go, I don't think there is a neat solution. You can either have a rigid code and a literal adherence to it, missing the intent, like in the example of a monk walking by a drowning woman in order to avoid physical contact (or a multitude of more common and less extreme, but still problematic behaviours) or you have the troublesome grey areas, Bodhisattva vows trumping the Vinaya, as with Mahayana monks, skilful means, etc.

At the end of the day, monk or lay, we are responsible for our sila. To the extent that we take that responsibility and make an earnest sincere effort, that will pay off, both in terms of our kamma and the effect on our practice, I believe.
_/|\_
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Re: classical sunni islam sees buddha as a prophet and buddhists as' saved '

Post by Ontheway »

Then why not you embrace Buddha's teachings and forsake Islam?

Buddha taught a Way beyond three worlds. While your Muhammad only wanted heaven (most likely...not going to happen).
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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