Did the Bodhisatta walked the path for many lifetimes?

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Re: Did the Bodhisatta walked the path for many lifetimes?

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santa100 wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 2:40 pm other than the Buddha, who was able to attain the 1st Jhana when he was still a kid?
Jhana is just calmness
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Re: Did the Bodhisatta walked the path for many lifetimes?

Post by DNS »

santa100 wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 2:40 pm That's why I asked him to name 1 single Putthujjana, other than the Buddha, who was able to attain the 1st Jhana when s/he was still a kid?
Sopaka Thera became an arahant at the age of 7.
http://aimwell.org/DPPN/sopaka.html

As an arahant, he no doubt, had proficiency in the jhanas.
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Re: Did the Bodhisatta walked the path for many lifetimes?

Post by santa100 »

retrofuturist wrote:That's the first I've seen of this question. Anyway, since I am not God, I'm not sure how you expect me to have omniscient knowledge of everyone who may or may not have achieved states of jhana prior to the Buddhasasana, let alone their respective ages. It's an unreasonable request as there's no data source that could be used to draw this information. We can however know about the life of the Buddha by drawing upon the Buddha's discourses, which is what I have done in this topic. If it's taken sources from outside the Suttas for you to realise this, then so be it, and I thank those who have shared resources or lines of thinking more amenable to you.
No, that's not the first time you've seen it. I've posed the question to you here. And it is exactly because you are not God nor possessing omniscient knowledge, it simply does not make any sense for you to claim that the Buddha was just a Puthujjhana in his last birth, as if you can read His mind. Also I already made it clear that I'd have no problem with the proposal of the "special kind of Puthujjhana", as long as it's been clearly quantified as Ontheway has done.
DNS wrote:Sopaka Thera became an arahant at the age of 7.
Do you think it's even fair to compare a person attaining noble fruit AFTER the Path's already been discovered and the roadmap's been clearly laid out to be followed Versus a kid attainining the 1st Jhana Without any teacher laid out the Path to Him?
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Re: Did the Bodhisatta walked the path for many lifetimes?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Santa,
santa100 wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 12:54 am No, that's not the first time you've seen it. I've posed the question to you here.
Actually, it is the first time I've seen that post... not that it's worded anything like how you're wording the question now.

For what it's worth, you posted it at 2:20am my time, and it was not seen in amongst all your unnecessary hostilities that followed, given that when I returned to the site next, I was speaking to Joe.C. who was conducting himself in a slightly more civilized manner. Anyway, your current iteration of the question has now been addressed.

Beyond that, your latest round of comments are of no interest to me. I have explained my position, and people who advocate for the Classical Theravada position have also said likewise, albeit from the perspective of that framework. I believe it is time to let the matter go.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Did the Bodhisatta walked the path for many lifetimes?

Post by Ontheway »

Sopaka wasn't Ariya back then but because of his Parami is reaching maturation, there the Blessed One surveying the world with his Divine Eye, got a vision of this boy (people should know what Buddha kicca is). Then, the Blessed One foreseen his capability of attainment, He used His Iddhi Power to reach out to the boy Sopaka.
SOPAKA-000-scaled.jpg
Sopaka wasn't a Bodhisatta aiming for Sammasambuddhahood either. The path to Enlightenment was shown to him by the Blessed One.

PS: Jhana attainments are possible even for nonBuddhists or any other religious followers (provided the method used is conducive to Jhanas). Example, even Bodhisatta Gotama's unenlightened rishi teachers (Alara and Uddaka) can reach high Jhanic attainment. What really differentiate Buddha's teachings and others is Vipassana, that was used to penetrate the characteristics of Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta, subsequently leading to the attainments of Maggaphalas.
Last edited by Ontheway on Tue May 03, 2022 1:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Re: Did the Bodhisatta walked the path for many lifetimes?

Post by santa100 »

retrofuturist wrote:Actually, it is the first time I've seen that post... not that it's worded anything like how you're wording the question now.

For what it's worth, you posted it at 2:20am my time, and it was not seen in amongst all your unnecessary hostilities that followed. Anyway, your current iteration of the question has now been addressed.

Beyond that, your latest round of questions are of no interest to me. I have explained my position, and people who advocate for the Classical Theravada position have also said likewise, albeit from the perspective of that framework. I believe it is time to let the matter go.
That's not gonna fly cuz you've been promptly posting all your replies since the last 124 posts, some are within minutes from my posts, and quite frankly, never once did I initiated any "unnecessary hostilities" toward you. I simply responded to you in kind, exactly like how you've been treating me. At least we're on the same page regarding whether it's any more useful to carry on. But make no mistake, we're pretty clear on how we roll and I'd be happy to engage in some other productive conversations some other time.
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Re: Did the Bodhisatta walked the path for many lifetimes?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
santa100 wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 1:09 am I'd be happy to engage in some other productive conversations some other time.
All good. :anjali:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Did the Bodhisatta walked the path for many lifetimes?

Post by santa100 »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 1:11 am Greetings,
santa100 wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 1:09 am I'd be happy to engage in some other productive conversations some other time.
All good. :anjali:

Metta,
Paul. :)
Cool!
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Re: Did the Bodhisatta walked the path for many lifetimes?

Post by BrokenBones »

Ontheway wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 1:04 am Sopaka wasn't Ariya back then but because of his Parami is reaching maturation, there the Blessed One surveying the world with his Divine Eye, got a vision of this boy (people should know what Buddha kicca is). Then, the Blessed One foreseen his capability of attainment, He used His Iddhi Power to reach out to the boy Sopaka.

SOPAKA-000-scaled.jpg

Sopaka wasn't a Bodhisatta aiming for Sammasambuddhahood either. The path to Enlightenment was shown to him by the Blessed One.

PS: Jhana attainments are possible even for nonBuddhists or any other religious followers (provided the method used is conducive to Jhanas). Example, even Bodhisatta Gotama's unenlightened rishi teachers (Alara and Uddaka) can reach high Jhanic attainment. What really differentiate Buddha's teachings and others is Vipassana, that was used to penetrate the characteristics of Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta, subsequently leading to the attainments of Maggaphalas.
I could find no sutta that records the Buddha's teachers as having jhana attainment.
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Re: Did the Bodhisatta walked the path for many lifetimes?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
BrokenBones wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 1:18 am
Ontheway wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 1:04 am Sopaka wasn't Ariya back then but because of his Parami is reaching maturation, there the Blessed One surveying the world with his Divine Eye, got a vision of this boy (people should know what Buddha kicca is). Then, the Blessed One foreseen his capability of attainment, He used His Iddhi Power to reach out to the boy Sopaka.

SOPAKA-000-scaled.jpg

Sopaka wasn't a Bodhisatta aiming for Sammasambuddhahood either. The path to Enlightenment was shown to him by the Blessed One.

PS: Jhana attainments are possible even for nonBuddhists or any other religious followers (provided the method used is conducive to Jhanas). Example, even Bodhisatta Gotama's unenlightened rishi teachers (Alara and Uddaka) can reach high Jhanic attainment. What really differentiate Buddha's teachings and others is Vipassana, that was used to penetrate the characteristics of Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta, subsequently leading to the attainments of Maggaphalas.
I could find no sutta that records the Buddha's teachers as having jhana attainment.
Did you read the entirety of MN 85?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Did the Bodhisatta walked the path for many lifetimes?

Post by Ontheway »

BrokenBones wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 1:18 am
Ontheway wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 1:04 am Sopaka wasn't Ariya back then but because of his Parami is reaching maturation, there the Blessed One surveying the world with his Divine Eye, got a vision of this boy (people should know what Buddha kicca is). Then, the Blessed One foreseen his capability of attainment, He used His Iddhi Power to reach out to the boy Sopaka.

SOPAKA-000-scaled.jpg

Sopaka wasn't a Bodhisatta aiming for Sammasambuddhahood either. The path to Enlightenment was shown to him by the Blessed One.

PS: Jhana attainments are possible even for nonBuddhists or any other religious followers (provided the method used is conducive to Jhanas). Example, even Bodhisatta Gotama's unenlightened rishi teachers (Alara and Uddaka) can reach high Jhanic attainment. What really differentiate Buddha's teachings and others is Vipassana, that was used to penetrate the characteristics of Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta, subsequently leading to the attainments of Maggaphalas.
I could find no sutta that records the Buddha's teachers as having jhana attainment.
Buddha don't have a teacher. But Bodhisatta Gotama has teachers for a certain period of time. But still, these teachers couldn't have him the ultimate answer to get rid of sufferings. Then Bodhisatta Gotama set out to figure out by himself. In which he started with the meditation with Ānāpānassati instead, and then once gained the concentration desired, revert his meditation to investigate the rising and ceasing of mass sufferings in Samsara. There the 30 ultimate perfections reached maturation, Bodhisatta Gotama vanquished all defilements and penetrated the Four Noble Truths and Paṭiccasamuppāda, subsequently attained Sammasambuddhahood.
Dp-pics_page432_image353c.jpg
Both Alara and Uddaka reached the ākiñcaññāyatanaṁ and nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṁ attainment respectively. To reach this attainment, one must gone through four Jhana stages. You can find this in Ariyapariyesana Sutta (Majjhima Nikaya).
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Re: Did the Bodhisatta walked the path for many lifetimes?

Post by BrokenBones »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 1:22 am Greetings,
BrokenBones wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 1:18 am
Ontheway wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 1:04 am
I could find no sutta that records the Buddha's teachers as having jhana attainment.
Did you read the entirety of MN 85?

Metta,
Paul. :)
Yes... still not seeing it.
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Re: Did the Bodhisatta walked the path for many lifetimes?

Post by BrokenBones »

Ontheway wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 1:35 am
BrokenBones wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 1:18 am
Ontheway wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 1:04 am

PS: Jhana attainments are possible even for nonBuddhists or any other religious followers (provided the method used is conducive to Jhanas). Example, even Bodhisatta Gotama's unenlightened rishi teachers (Alara and Uddaka) can reach high Jhanic attainment. What really differentiate Buddha's teachings and others is Vipassana, that was used to penetrate the characteristics of Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta, subsequently leading to the attainments of Maggaphalas.
I could find no sutta that records the Buddha's teachers as having jhana attainment.
Both Alara and Uddaka reached the ākiñcaññāyatanaṁ and nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṁ attainment respectively. To reach this attainment, one must gone through four Jhana stages. You can find this in Ariyapariyesana Sutta (Majjhima Nikaya).
It doesn't say that one must attain the four jhanas before attaining the dimensions. Naming the perceptions/dimensions as jhanas is just not found in the suttas.
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Re: Did the Bodhisatta walked the path for many lifetimes?

Post by Ontheway »

BrokenBones wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 2:51 am
Ontheway wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 1:35 am
BrokenBones wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 1:18 am

I could find no sutta that records the Buddha's teachers as having jhana attainment.
Both Alara and Uddaka reached the ākiñcaññāyatanaṁ and nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṁ attainment respectively. To reach this attainment, one must gone through four Jhana stages. You can find this in Ariyapariyesana Sutta (Majjhima Nikaya).
It doesn't say that one must attain the four jhanas before attaining the dimensions. Naming the perceptions/dimensions as jhanas is just not found in the suttas.
In the sutta, it clearly says:
"So, at a later time, while still young, a black-haired young man endowed with the blessings of youth in the first stage of life — and while my parents, unwilling, were crying with tears streaming down their faces — I shaved off my hair & beard, put on the ochre robe and went forth from the home life into homelessness.

"Having thus gone forth in search of what might be skillful, seeking the unexcelled state of sublime peace, I went to Alara Kalama and, on arrival, said to him: 'Friend Kalama, I want to practice in this doctrine & discipline.'

"When this was said, he replied to me, 'You may stay here, my friend. This doctrine is such that a wise person can soon enter & dwell in his own teacher's knowledge, having realized it for himself through direct knowledge.'

"It was not long before I quickly learned the doctrine. As far as mere lip-reciting & repetition, I could speak the words of knowledge, the words of the elders, and I could affirm that I knew & saw — I, along with others.

"I thought: 'It isn't through mere conviction alone that Alara Kalama declares, "I have entered & dwell in this Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge." Certainly he dwells knowing & seeing this Dhamma.' So I went to him and said, 'To what extent do you declare that you have entered & dwell in this Dhamma?' When this was said, he declared the dimension of nothingness.

"I thought: 'Not only does Alara Kalama have conviction, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, & discernment. I, too, have conviction, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, & discernment. What if I were to endeavor to realize for myself the Dhamma that Alara Kalama declares he has entered & dwells in, having realized it for himself through direct knowledge.' So it was not long before I quickly entered & dwelled in that Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge. I went to him and said, 'Friend Kalama, is this the extent to which you have entered & dwell in this Dhamma, having realized it for yourself through direct knowledge?'

"'Yes, my friend...'

"'This, friend, is the extent to which I, too, have entered & dwell in this Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge.'

"It is a gain for us, my friend, a great gain for us, that we have such a companion in the holy life. So the Dhamma I declare I have entered & dwell in, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge, is the Dhamma you declare you have entered & dwell in, having realized it for yourself through direct knowledge. And the Dhamma you declare you have entered & dwell in, having realized it for yourself through direct knowledge, is the Dhamma I declare I have entered & dwell in, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge. The Dhamma I know is the Dhamma you know; the Dhamma you know is the Dhamma I know. As I am, so are you; as you are, so am I. Come friend, let us now lead this community together.'

"In this way did Alara Kalama, my teacher, place me, his pupil, on the same level with himself and pay me great honor. But the thought occurred to me, 'This Dhamma leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to Awakening, nor to Unbinding, but only to reappearance in the dimension of nothingness.' So, dissatisfied with that Dhamma, I left.

"In search of what might be skillful, seeking the unexcelled state of sublime peace, I went to Uddaka Ramaputta and, on arrival, said to him: 'Friend Uddaka, I want to practice in this doctrine & discipline.'

"When this was said, he replied to me, 'You may stay here, my friend. This doctrine is such that a wise person can soon enter & dwell in his own teacher's knowledge, having realized it for himself through direct knowledge.'

"It was not long before I quickly learned the doctrine. As far as mere lip-reciting & repetition, I could speak the words of knowledge, the words of the elders, and I could affirm that I knew & saw — I, along with others.

"I thought: 'It wasn't through mere conviction alone that Rama declared, "I have entered & dwell in this Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge." Certainly he dwelled knowing & seeing this Dhamma.' So I went to Uddaka and said, 'To what extent did Rama declare that he had entered & dwelled in this Dhamma?' When this was said, Uddaka declared the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.

"I thought: 'Not only did Rama have conviction, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, & discernment. I, too, have conviction, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, & discernment. What if I were to endeavor to realize for myself the Dhamma that Rama declared he entered & dwelled in, having realized it for himself through direct knowledge.' So it was not long before I quickly entered & dwelled in that Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge. I went to Uddaka and said, 'Friend Uddaka, is this the extent to which Rama entered & dwelled in this Dhamma, having realized it for himself through direct knowledge?'

"'Yes, my friend...'

"'This, friend, is the extent to which I, too, have entered & dwell in this Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge.'

"'It is a gain for us, my friend, a great gain for us, that we have such a companion in the holy life. So the Dhamma Rama declared he entered & dwelled in, having realized it for himself through direct knowledge, is the Dhamma you declare you have entered & dwell in, having realized it for yourself through direct knowledge. And the Dhamma you declare you have entered & dwell in, having realized it for yourself through direct knowledge, is the Dhamma Rama declared he entered & dwelled in, having realized it for himself through direct knowledge. The Dhamma he knew is the Dhamma you know; the Dhamma you know is the Dhamma he knew. As he was, so are you; as you are, so was he. Come friend, lead this community.'

"In this way did Uddaka Ramaputta, my companion in the holy life, place me in the position of teacher and pay me great honor. But the thought occurred to me, 'This Dhamma leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to Awakening, nor to Unbinding, but only to reappearance in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.' So, dissatisfied with that Dhamma, I left.
Now, you say one can enter upon these two attainments without mastering four Jhanas. This is wrong as no one recorded in the canon actually can do so without prior knowledge and mastery of four Jhanas.

In fact, the Buddha gave a successive step of training in Culasaropama Sutta (Majjhima Nikaya):
"Here, brahmin, some clansman goes forth out of faith from the home life into homelessness, considering: 'I am a victim of birth, ageing, and death, of sorrow...; I am a victim of suffering, a prey to suffering. Surely an ending of this whole mass of suffering can be known.' When he has gone forth thus,he acquires gain, honour, and renown. He is not pleased with that and his intention is not fulfilled...He achieves the attainment of virtue. He is pleased with that attainment of virtue, but his intention is not fulfilled...He achieves the attainment of concentration. He is pleased with that attainment of concentration, but his intention is not fulfilled...He achieves knowledge and vision. He is pleased with that knowledge and vision, but his intention is not fulfilled. He does not, on account of it, laud himself and disparage others. He arouses desire to act and he makes an effort for the realization of those other states that are higher and more sublime than knowledge and vision he does not hang back and slacken."

"But what, brahmin, are the states that are higher and more sublime than knowledge and vision? Here, brahmin, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. This is a state higher and more sublime than knowledge and vision. Again, with the stilling of applied and sustained thought, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the second jhana, which has self-confidence and singleness of mind without applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of concentration. This too is a state higher and more sublime than knowledge and vision. Again, with the fading away as well of rapture, a bhikkhu abides in equanimity, and mindful and fully aware, still feeling pleasure with the body, he enters upon and abides in the third jhana, on account of which noble ones announce: 'He has a pleasant abiding who has equanimity and is mindful.' This too is a state higher and more sublime than knowledge and vision. "

"Again, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of joy and grief, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the fourth jhana, which has neither-pain-nor pleasure and purity of mindfulness due to equanimity. This too is a state higher and more sublime than knowledge and vision. Again, with the complete surmounting of perceptions of form, with the disappearance of perceptions of sensory impact, with non-attention to perceptions of diversity, aware that 'space is infinite', a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the base of infinite space. This too is a state higher and more sublime than knowledge and vision. Again, by completely surmounting the base of infinite space, aware that 'consciousness is infinite/ a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the base of infinite consciousness. This too is a state higher and more sublime than knowledge and vision. Again, by completely surmounting the base of infinite consciousness, aware that 'there is nothing,' a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the base of nothingness. This too is a state higher and more sublime than knowledge and vision."

"Again, by completely surmounting the base of nothingness, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the base of neither perception-nor-non-perception. This too is a state higher and more sublime than knowledge and vision. Again, by completely surmounting the base of neither perception-nor-non-perception, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the cessation of perception and feeling. And his taints are destroyed by seeing with wisdom. This too is a state higher and more sublime than knowledge and vision. These are the states that are higher and more sublime than knowledge and vision."

"I say that this person, brahmin, is like a man needing heartwood, seeking heartwood,who came to a great tree standing possessed of heartwood, and cutting off its heartwood, took it away knowing it was heartwood; and so whatever it was he had to make with heartwood, his purpose will have been served."

"So this holy life, brahmin, does not have gain, honour, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of virtue or the attainment of concentration or knowledge and vision for its benefit. But it is this unshakeable deliverance of mind that is the goal of this holy life, its heartwood, and its end."
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Re: Did the Bodhisatta walked the path for many lifetimes?

Post by BrokenBones »

Ontheway... I'm not denying that the insight gained from the four jhanas is not conducive to using the perceptions as a tool for insight or making them easier to access.

I repeat... nowhere in the suttas is it stated that the four jhanas are required for the perceptions.

Indeed, if it was so then it would make a mockery of the Buddha remembering jhana under the Apple tree as a child when according to you he'd quite recently achieved it under his two teachers.

Making suttas say what is convenient or what the commentaries say they really meant is very frustrating.

As for the perceptions... the Buddha didn't use them to achieve enlightenment and don't appear in summaries of the eightfold path whilst the four jhanas do. The perceptions only seem to appear as part of the path in the more 'elaborate' suttas.
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