sutta Request

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rolling_boulder
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sutta Request

Post by rolling_boulder »

Hello can someone give me a sutta reference for when the Buddha said that when a bhikkhu does not follow his instructions, he is displeased?

Thank you
The world is swept away. It does not endure...
The world is without shelter, without protector...
The world is without ownership. One has to pass on, leaving everything behind...
The world is insufficient, insatiable, a slave to craving.
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bodom
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Re: sutta Request

Post by bodom »

You won't find it because the Buddha never said anything like that. In fact he said the opposite:
The first case is when the Teacher teaches the Dhamma out of kindness and compassion: ‘This is for your welfare. This is for your happiness.’ But their disciples don’t want to listen. They don’t pay attention or apply their minds to understand. They proceed having turned away from the Teacher’s instruction. In this case the Realized One is not displeased, he does not feel displeasure. He remains unaffected, mindful and aware. This is the first case in which the Noble One cultivates the establishment of mindfulness.

The next case is when the Teacher teaches the Dhamma out of kindness and compassion: ‘This is for your welfare. This is for your happiness.’ And some of their disciples don’t want to listen. They don’t pay attention or apply their minds to understand. They proceed having turned away from the Teacher’s instruction. But some of their disciples do want to listen. They pay attention and apply their minds to understand. They don’t proceed having turned away from the Teacher’s instruction. In this case the Realized One is not displeased, nor is he pleased. Rejecting both displeasure and pleasure, he remains equanimous, mindful and aware. This is the second case in which the Noble One cultivates the establishment of mindfulness.

The next case is when the Teacher teaches the Dhamma out of kindness and compassion: ‘This is for your welfare. This is for your happiness.’ And their disciples want to listen. They pay attention and apply their minds to understand. They don’t proceed having turned away from the Teacher’s instruction. In this case the Realized One is not pleased, he does not feel pleasure. He remains unaffected, mindful and aware. This is the third case in which the Noble One cultivates the establishment of mindfulness. ‘The Noble One cultivates the establishment of mindfulness in three cases, by virtue of which they are a Teacher worthy to instruct a group.’ That’s what I said, and this is why I said it.
https://suttacentral.net/mn137/en/sujat ... ript=latin

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
rolling_boulder
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Re: sutta Request

Post by rolling_boulder »

bodom wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 11:59 pm ...

:anjali:
Thank you
The world is swept away. It does not endure...
The world is without shelter, without protector...
The world is without ownership. One has to pass on, leaving everything behind...
The world is insufficient, insatiable, a slave to craving.
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bodom
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Re: sutta Request

Post by bodom »

rolling_boulder wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 12:05 am
bodom wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 11:59 pm ...

:anjali:
Thank you
:heart:

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
allium
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Re: sutta Request

Post by allium »

rolling_boulder wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 11:18 pm Hello can someone give me a sutta reference for when the Buddha said that when a bhikkhu does not follow his instructions, he is displeased?
There seem to be several versions of the Pali text resulting in different translations. Ven. Ṭhānissaro's translation is more similar to the wording of the original question:
“‘There are three establishings of mindfulness that a noble one cultivates, cultivating which he is a teacher fit to instruct a group’: Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said?

“There is the case where the Teacher—out of sympathy, seeking their well-being—teaches the Dhamma to his disciples: ‘This is for your well-being, this is for your happiness.’ His disciples do not listen or lend ear or apply their minds to gnosis. Turning aside, they stray from the Teacher’s message. In this case the Tathāgata is not satisfied nor is he sensitive to satisfaction, yet he remains untroubled, mindful, & alert. This is the first establishing of mindfulness that a noble one cultivates, cultivating which he is a teacher fit to instruct a group.

“And further, there is the case where the Teacher—out of sympathy, seeking their well-being—teaches the Dhamma to his disciples: ‘This is for your well-being, this is for your happiness.’ Some of his disciples do not listen or lend ear or apply their minds to gnosis. Turning aside, they stray from the Teacher’s message. But some of his disciples listen, lend ear, & apply their minds to gnosis. They do not turn aside or stray from the Teacher’s message. In this case the Tathāgata is not satisfied nor is he sensitive to satisfaction; at the same time he is not dissatisfied nor is he sensitive to dissatisfaction. Free from both satisfaction & dissatisfaction, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert. This is the second establishing of mindfulness.…

“And further, there is the case where the Teacher—out of sympathy, seeking their well-being—teaches the Dhamma to his disciples: ‘This is for your well-being, this is for your happiness.’ His disciples listen, lend ear, & apply their minds to gnosis. They do not turn aside or stray from the Teacher’s message. In this case the Tathāgata is satisfied and is sensitive to satisfaction, yet he remains untroubled, mindful, & alert. This is the third establishing of mindfulness that a noble one cultivates, cultivating which he is a teacher fit to instruct a group.

“‘There are three establishings of mindfulness that a noble one cultivates, cultivating which he is a teacher fit to instruct a group’: Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN137.html
annada
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Re: sutta Request

Post by annada »

bodom wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 11:59 pm You won't find it because the Buddha never said anything like that. In fact he said the opposite:
The first case is when the Teacher teaches the Dhamma out of kindness and compassion: ‘This is for your welfare. This is for your happiness.’ But their disciples don’t want to listen. They don’t pay attention or apply their minds to understand. They proceed having turned away from the Teacher’s instruction. In this case the Realized One is not displeased, he does not feel displeasure. He remains unaffected, mindful and aware. This is the first case in which the Noble One cultivates the establishment of mindfulness.

The next case is when the Teacher teaches the Dhamma out of kindness and compassion: ‘This is for your welfare. This is for your happiness.’ And some of their disciples don’t want to listen. They don’t pay attention or apply their minds to understand. They proceed having turned away from the Teacher’s instruction. But some of their disciples do want to listen. They pay attention and apply their minds to understand. They don’t proceed having turned away from the Teacher’s instruction. In this case the Realized One is not displeased, nor is he pleased. Rejecting both displeasure and pleasure, he remains equanimous, mindful and aware. This is the second case in which the Noble One cultivates the establishment of mindfulness.

The next case is when the Teacher teaches the Dhamma out of kindness and compassion: ‘This is for your welfare. This is for your happiness.’ And their disciples want to listen. They pay attention and apply their minds to understand. They don’t proceed having turned away from the Teacher’s instruction. In this case the Realized One is not pleased, he does not feel pleasure. He remains unaffected, mindful and aware. This is the third case in which the Noble One cultivates the establishment of mindfulness. ‘The Noble One cultivates the establishment of mindfulness in three cases, by virtue of which they are a Teacher worthy to instruct a group.’ That’s what I said, and this is why I said it.
https://suttacentral.net/mn137/en/sujat ... ript=latin

:anjali:
As usual, Venerable Sujato mistranslated the sutta. Sorry but I must point it out.

He has translated exactly the opposite of what is said by the Tathagata:

Sujato:

"The next case is ... And their disciples want to listen. They pay attention and apply their minds to understand.... In this case the Realized One is not pleased, he does not feel pleasure. ..."

and what the Tathagata said in reality, the exact opposite:

"tathāgato attamano ceva hoti, attamanatañca paṭisaṃvedeti,"
"And again, monks, a teacher teaches... His disciples listen, lend ear, prepare their minds for profound knowledge and, not turning aside, do not move from the teacher's instruction ... Herein, monks, the Tathāgata is delighted and he experiences delight..."

Also the Buddha clearly states he is talking to the monks, but Sujato completely deleted/erased this fact from his "translation":

Sujato:

"The next case is when the Teacher teaches the Dhamma out of kindness and compassion"

what was said by the blessed one:

“puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, satthā sāvakānaṃ dhammaṃ deseti anukampako hitesī anukampaṃ upādāya"
"And again, monks, a teacher teaches Dhamma to disciples, compassionate, seeking their welfare, out of compassion"
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bodom
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Re: sutta Request

Post by bodom »

And here is Bodhi's for reference:
“Here, bhikkhus, compassionate and seeking their welfare, the Teacher teaches the Dhamma to the disciples out of compassion: ‘This is for your welfare; this is for your happiness.’ His disciples do not want to hear or give ear or exert their minds to understand; they err and turn aside from the Teacher’s Dispensation. With that the Tathāgata is not satisfied and feels no satisfaction; yet he dwells unmoved, mindful, and fully aware. This, bhikkhus, is called the first foundation of mindfulness that the Noble One cultivates, cultivating which the Noble One is a teacher fit to instruct a group

“Furthermore, bhikkhus, compassionate and seeking their welfare, the Teacher teaches the Dhamma to the disciples out of compassion: ‘This is for your welfare; this is for your happiness.’ Some of his disciples will not hear or give ear or exert their minds to understand; they err and turn aside from the Teacher’s Dispensation. Some of his disciples will hear and give ear and exert their minds to understand; they do not err and turn aside from the Teacher’s Dispensation. With that the Tathāgata is not satisfied and feels no satisfaction, and he is not dissatisfied and feels no dissatisfaction; remaining free from both satisfaction and dissatisfaction, he dwells in equanimity, mindful, and fully aware. This, bhikkhus, is called the second foundation of mindfulness that the Noble One cultivates, cultivating which the Noble One is a teacher fit to instruct a group.

“Furthermore, bhikkhus, compassionate and seeking their welfare, the Teacher teaches the Dhamma to the disciples out of compassion: ‘This is for your welfare; this is for your happiness.’ His disciples will hear and give ear and exert their minds to understand; they do not err and turn aside from the Teacher’s Dispensation. With that the Tathāgata is satisfied and feels satisfaction; yet he dwells unmoved, mindful, and fully aware. This, bhikkhus, is called the third foundation of mindfulness that the Noble One cultivates, cultivating which the Noble One is a teacher fit to instruct a group.
I still can find no reference to him in any translations saying he is displeased or dissatisfied per the OP's question.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
annada
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Re: sutta Request

Post by annada »

bodom wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 8:29 pm And here is Bodhi's for reference:
“Here, bhikkhus, compassionate and seeking their welfare, the Teacher teaches the Dhamma to the disciples out of compassion: ‘This is for your welfare; this is for your happiness.’ His disciples do not want to hear or give ear or exert their minds to understand; they err and turn aside from the Teacher’s Dispensation. With that the Tathāgata is not satisfied and feels no satisfaction; yet he dwells unmoved, mindful, and fully aware. This, bhikkhus, is called the first foundation of mindfulness that the Noble One cultivates, cultivating which the Noble One is a teacher fit to instruct a group

“Furthermore, bhikkhus, compassionate and seeking their welfare, the Teacher teaches the Dhamma to the disciples out of compassion: ‘This is for your welfare; this is for your happiness.’ Some of his disciples will not hear or give ear or exert their minds to understand; they err and turn aside from the Teacher’s Dispensation. Some of his disciples will hear and give ear and exert their minds to understand; they do not err and turn aside from the Teacher’s Dispensation. With that the Tathāgata is not satisfied and feels no satisfaction, and he is not dissatisfied and feels no dissatisfaction; remaining free from both satisfaction and dissatisfaction, he dwells in equanimity, mindful, and fully aware. This, bhikkhus, is called the second foundation of mindfulness that the Noble One cultivates, cultivating which the Noble One is a teacher fit to instruct a group.

“Furthermore, bhikkhus, compassionate and seeking their welfare, the Teacher teaches the Dhamma to the disciples out of compassion: ‘This is for your welfare; this is for your happiness.’ His disciples will hear and give ear and exert their minds to understand; they do not err and turn aside from the Teacher’s Dispensation. With that the Tathāgata is satisfied and feels satisfaction; yet he dwells unmoved, mindful, and fully aware. This, bhikkhus, is called the third foundation of mindfulness that the Noble One cultivates, cultivating which the Noble One is a teacher fit to instruct a group.
I still can find no reference to him in any translations saying he is displeased or dissatisfied per the OP's question.

:anjali:
In my opinion you have found it.

In the first case the blessed one said that he is not satisfied, you may say he is dissatisfied or you may say that he is displeased (maybe this is what rolling_boulder was looking for). This is the case when all do not hear and follow the dhamma.

In the second case the blessed one is both not satisfied and not dissatisfied, somewhere in the middle... This is the case when some do not follow the teaching.

And in the third case when the Tathagata is satisfied, when all give ear...
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bodom
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Re: sutta Request

Post by bodom »

cfekete wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 9:30 pm
bodom wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 8:29 pm And here is Bodhi's for reference:
“Here, bhikkhus, compassionate and seeking their welfare, the Teacher teaches the Dhamma to the disciples out of compassion: ‘This is for your welfare; this is for your happiness.’ His disciples do not want to hear or give ear or exert their minds to understand; they err and turn aside from the Teacher’s Dispensation. With that the Tathāgata is not satisfied and feels no satisfaction; yet he dwells unmoved, mindful, and fully aware. This, bhikkhus, is called the first foundation of mindfulness that the Noble One cultivates, cultivating which the Noble One is a teacher fit to instruct a group

“Furthermore, bhikkhus, compassionate and seeking their welfare, the Teacher teaches the Dhamma to the disciples out of compassion: ‘This is for your welfare; this is for your happiness.’ Some of his disciples will not hear or give ear or exert their minds to understand; they err and turn aside from the Teacher’s Dispensation. Some of his disciples will hear and give ear and exert their minds to understand; they do not err and turn aside from the Teacher’s Dispensation. With that the Tathāgata is not satisfied and feels no satisfaction, and he is not dissatisfied and feels no dissatisfaction; remaining free from both satisfaction and dissatisfaction, he dwells in equanimity, mindful, and fully aware. This, bhikkhus, is called the second foundation of mindfulness that the Noble One cultivates, cultivating which the Noble One is a teacher fit to instruct a group.

“Furthermore, bhikkhus, compassionate and seeking their welfare, the Teacher teaches the Dhamma to the disciples out of compassion: ‘This is for your welfare; this is for your happiness.’ His disciples will hear and give ear and exert their minds to understand; they do not err and turn aside from the Teacher’s Dispensation. With that the Tathāgata is satisfied and feels satisfaction; yet he dwells unmoved, mindful, and fully aware. This, bhikkhus, is called the third foundation of mindfulness that the Noble One cultivates, cultivating which the Noble One is a teacher fit to instruct a group.
I still can find no reference to him in any translations saying he is displeased or dissatisfied per the OP's question.

:anjali:
...you may say he is dissatisfied or you may say that he is displeased..
Yes you may say this but the Buddha does not.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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mikenz66
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Re: sutta Request

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi cfekete,
cfekete wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:10 pm Sujato:

"The next case is ... And their disciples want to listen. They pay attention and apply their minds to understand.... In this case the Realized One is not pleased, he does not feel pleasure. ..."

and what the Tathagata said in reality, the exact opposite:

"tathāgato attamano ceva hoti, attamanatañca paṭisaṃvedeti,"
"And again, monks, a teacher teaches... His disciples listen, lend ear, prepare their minds for profound knowledge and, not turning aside, do not move from the teacher's instruction ... Herein, monks, the Tathāgata is delighted and he experiences delight..."
It's obviously very easy to have typos in such passages, and I'm sure Bhikkhu Sujato would be pleased to have another one pointed out. I don't see a problem in the currently published version, but perhaps I'm looking at the wrong place:
In this case the Realized One is not displeased,
Tatra, bhikkhave, tathāgato na ceva anattamano hoti, na ca anattamanataṁ paṭisaṁvedeti;
nor is he pleased.
na ca attamano hoti, na ca attamanataṁ paṭisaṁvedeti.
https://suttacentral.net/mn137/en/sujat ... ript=latin
cfekete wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:10 pm Also the Buddha clearly states he is talking to the monks, but Sujato completely deleted/erased this fact from his "translation":
...
Translators sometimes leave out repetitive statements (as do the Pali texts in many cases). This is, of course, a matter of taste.

:heart:
Mike
annada
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Re: sutta Request

Post by annada »

bodom wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 9:45 pm
cfekete wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 9:30 pm
bodom wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 8:29 pm And here is Bodhi's for reference:



I still can find no reference to him in any translations saying he is displeased or dissatisfied per the OP's question.

:anjali:
...you may say he is dissatisfied or you may say that he is displeased..
Yes you may say this but the Buddha does not.

:anjali:
Yes I said so. I think my point was get, which is that maybe the question do was about this sutta, he just did not remember exactly about the wording of the sutta.
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Re: sutta Request

Post by annada »

mikenz66 wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 9:50 pm Hi cfekete,
cfekete wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:10 pm Sujato:

"The next case is ... And their disciples want to listen. They pay attention and apply their minds to understand.... In this case the Realized One is not pleased, he does not feel pleasure. ..."

and what the Tathagata said in reality, the exact opposite:

"tathāgato attamano ceva hoti, attamanatañca paṭisaṃvedeti,"
"And again, monks, a teacher teaches... His disciples listen, lend ear, prepare their minds for profound knowledge and, not turning aside, do not move from the teacher's instruction ... Herein, monks, the Tathāgata is delighted and he experiences delight..."
It's obviously very easy to have typos in such passages, and I'm sure Bhikkhu Sujato would be pleased to have another one pointed out. I don't see a problem in the currently published version, but perhaps I'm looking at the wrong place:
In this case the Realized One is not displeased,
Tatra, bhikkhave, tathāgato na ceva anattamano hoti, na ca anattamanataṁ paṭisaṁvedeti;
nor is he pleased.
na ca attamano hoti, na ca attamanataṁ paṭisaṁvedeti.
https://suttacentral.net/mn137/en/sujat ... ript=latin
This is not a typo. This is translating the opposite. And I can imagine that it was a mistake in this case. And I would not even mention it like " As usual" if I have not seen several mistranslations on this forum from suttacentral/Venerable Sujato. And intentional ones like in the last case I saw here, when Sujato translated "world system" to "solar system". Which is obviously not a mistake. You cannot mistakenly translate "world system" to "solar system". As far as I remember the Buddha never ever said anything like "solar system".
mikenz66 wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 9:50 pm
cfekete wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:10 pm Also the Buddha clearly states he is talking to the monks, but Sujato completely deleted/erased this fact from his "translation":
...
Translators sometimes leave out repetitive statements (as do the Pali texts in many cases). This is, of course, a matter of taste.

:heart:
Mike
This was not my point. It is a minor issue. But still, I think, if the words of the Buddha were important enough to preserve throughout the centuries than for someone, who picks up the task of being a translator of the suttas (Venerable Sujato did so, it is one of his "missions"). For him, it is also his duty to take the words and the phrases of the suttas, and translate them to the equivalent  words and phrases in the given language. And add notes when it is not possible. It is not his "task" to skip/ignore parts of it which he feels so. He should let the readers make these kinds of decisions... 

This is why I really "like" e.g. Bhikkhu Boddhi's translations and also the PTS one(in this case I.B. Horner). They do not just decide that these are repetitions or for whatever reason, and they remove them from the actual translation.
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mikenz66
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Re: sutta Request

Post by mikenz66 »

cfekete wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 6:21 am This is not a typo. This is translating the opposite. And I can imagine that it was a mistake in this case. And I would not even mention it like " As usual" if I have not seen several mistranslations on this forum from suttacentral/Venerable Sujato. And intentional ones like in the last case I saw here, when Sujato translated "world system" to "solar system". Which is obviously not a mistake. You cannot mistakenly translate "world system" to "solar system". As far as I remember the Buddha never ever said anything like "solar system".
Did you report the typo? There are a steady stream of typos and comments here: https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/ke ... ypos/24120

I don't particularly like "solar system" as a translation, but I've no idea what meaning a modern reader is supposed to take from the term "world system".

Regarding your other points, Bhikkhu Sujato is clear that he is aiming for idiomatic English. We already have translations that are closer to word-for-word Pali, using the more traditional translation choices, in Bhikkhu Bodhi's excellent translations (which sadly do not include the DN, but do include the Sutta Nipata). Personally, I like to read both together since each have their own strengths and weaknesses. And for some quite different terminology choices, there are Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translations.

:heart:
Mike
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Re: sutta Request

Post by annada »

mikenz66 wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 6:53 am
cfekete wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 6:21 am This is not a typo. This is translating the opposite. And I can imagine that it was a mistake in this case. And I would not even mention it like " As usual" if I have not seen several mistranslations on this forum from suttacentral/Venerable Sujato. And intentional ones like in the last case I saw here, when Sujato translated "world system" to "solar system". Which is obviously not a mistake. You cannot mistakenly translate "world system" to "solar system". As far as I remember the Buddha never ever said anything like "solar system".
Did you report the typo? There are a steady stream of typos and comments here: https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/ke ... ypos/24120
I have not reported it. I have seen so many awkward things in his translations (when I see quotations here in this forum) that I do not feel like it is worth spending time to improve it.
mikenz66 wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 6:53 am I don't particularly like "solar system" as a translation, but I've no idea what meaning a modern reader is supposed to take from the term "world system".
It is very strange indeed. I can give you a simile. I myself live in a country, in which, almost the complete country is Christian. In the Bible it is stated that there is a firmament over the earth. And here comes a "new guy" and retranslates the Bible. This "new guy" is a science believer and he does not believe in the words of the God. And he takes the Hebrew "firmament" and translates it to e.g. Van Allen Belt.

What do I think when I see such intentional mistranslation of the words of God? I think it is not a typo. I think he has mistranslated it intentionally. I think he may have an agenda behind it. I think he is a believer of "science" and he is not a believer of God. Or I may think that he pretends to believe in the so-called "science"... maybe he wants to destroy/erode the words of God. 
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Re: sutta Request

Post by Pulsar »

cfekete wrote
I have not reported it. I have seen so many awkward things in his translations (when I see quotations here in this forum) that I do not feel like it is worth spending time to improve it.
Why waste time reporting it, if you have no intention of improving it?
Both VBB and V. Sujato have reported that there are innumerable mistakes in the Pali canon. Human error? Transmitting monks got tired sometimes. What are we going to do about it? Toss away the Pali canon? As Mike mentioned I too like the richness of a variety of translations.
As far as OP's question is concerned,
Hello can someone give me a sutta reference for when the Buddha said that when a bhikkhu does not follow his instructions, he is displeased?
Does not this one brief sentence answer the question?
He remains unaffected, mindful and aware.
He meaning Tathagata. This is one sutta that is etched in my memory forever. Buddha is nibbanized? what does that mean to you? As much as it seems an impossibility, I too aspire to that. What a blessing to be so unaffected by people around us, what they say? what they do? what they think? Only an Arahant can, be so unaffected.
Regards :candle:
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