Dr Rod Bucknell's forthcoming new book: Reconstructing Early Buddhism

[nirodh27]

...

Hi Akusala,

Exactly, the lifestyle is not a field of study and, most important, the knowledge that we strive for is not a field of study, but is the knowledge of the ending of suffering. That is something that you can see for yourself working and, this is very important, is indipendent of others, says the Buddha. That means that it doesn't rely on an argument, but on a personal seeing/experiencing that no-one can convince you otherwise precisely because is not argument, but a results given by something that you did or that you don't do anymore. That is why I think (and I think it is supported in the suttas) that self is not something that you have to understand as existent/non-existent, but not-self is something that you have to do due to value judgement and an abandonment. That the work is not to understand intellectually, but to find it where it lurks and dismantle it (As in the famous example of the sand castles), even in our own small way if we are laypeople.

No matter how persuasive their analysis, if they exhibit unskillful 'speech' then we know that they do not have the right knowledge because the prerequisite of the right 'speech' is just not there. Intellectually, they may be right but the meaning of the teachings has not penetrated beyond the intellectual understanding of the teachings. So, we should take it with a pinch of salt. Is my understanding correct here?

To judge the right knowledge of someone in a forum we should know if they have cessated all or a significant part of their suffering, that is impossible, but yes, seeing them suffer and show malevolence or mockery (since they can be seen in union of what is displeasing for them) for an argument is an indicator of non-knowledge of the benefits of the path, that is different from the intellectual knowledge of what the suttas says of the path that can be instead very developed. When I read a monk that speaks like "only this is true" or mocks people that thinks differently I'm immediately suspicious of the knowledge of the benefits of the path, even if his arguments are 100% correct: I would expect equanimity and a very gentle disagreement with zero mockery. Still, many of the benefits of the path can be lost unless you're an arahant, so we can even see regression and different behaviour at different times (even those that got fourt jhana can regress to sensuality for the suttas, that is a big deal if one thinks about it), it is not all black&white.

With metta

[Pulsar]

Dearest Nirodh27,
I said I will fetch you a sutta that speaks of the commitment involved in guarding one's virtue (sila).
Here is AN 4.194 with a Pali parallel SA 565, summarized.
To get the right undrstanding it is important to read both versions. Pali sutta is marked by elaboration, agama sutta is concise, which I find the brevity very helpful.

Pali version writes
1. Training in virtue is called purity of virtuous behaviour. The desire, effort, zeal, enthusiasm, indefatigability, mindfulness, and clear comprehension...
2. Striving for Purity of mind? secluded from sensual sensual pleasures ...
3. Striving for purity of view? He understands it as it really is" This is suffering" "This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering"
4. Striving for purity of liberation? He detaches his mind from the things that cause attachment and emancipates his mind.

In a very early commentary written before sectarianism came into play

Buddha is cited as saying greed of the ordinary person prevents him from cultivating the establishment of mindfulness.

SN 47.42 on the Establishment of Mindfulness comes to my mind.

SN 565 writes The ordinary disciples are greedy and have no desire to liberate.

• Greedy and delusional hearts have no desire to liberate.

A question for the forum,
To expose the falseness or hollowness of one's ideas originating from "I"??? who is willing to do that?
Sati is the ability to debunk, all that appears in the proliferating mind. this is my understanding.

Dear Nirodh27, when I have the time, I will bring you another sutta, that shows the first establishment of mindfulness was not supposed to be on a physical body or a decaying body, or a rotting body.
Thank you, for your excellent and well thought out summary of Dr. Bucknell's new book.
As for Virtue, the sutta highlights the requirements for guarding Virtue,

• indefatigability

• mindfulness

• and clear comprehension.

You wrote

Yeah, and it would really link understanding with behaviour and lifestyle.

The price to pay for that lifestyle change would be a Slow, and Gradual renunciation.
With love

[l_rivers]

https://www.amazon.com/Reconstructing-E ... 232&sr=1-1

Reconstructing Early Buddhism New Edition
by Roderick S. Bucknell (Author)

See all formats and editions

Kindle $60.49

Hardcover $99.99

2 Used from $127.49 9 New from $79.29

Buddhist origins and discussion of the Buddha's teachings are amongst the most controversial and contested areas in the field. This bold and authoritative book tackles head-on some of the key questions regarding early Buddhism and its primary canon of precepts. Noting that the earliest texts in Pali, Sanskrit and Chinese belong to different Buddhist schools, Roderick S. Bucknell addresses the development of these writings during the period of oral transmission between the Buddha's death and their initial redaction in the first century BCE. A meticulous comparative analysis reveals the likely original path of meditative practice applied and taught by Gautama. Fresh perspectives now emerge on both the Buddha himself and his Enlightenment. Drawing on his own years of meditative experience as a Buddhist monk, the author offers here remarkable new interpretations of advanced practices of meditation, as well as of Buddhism itself. It is a landmark work in Buddhist Studies.

[frank k]

...
The third part is again 3 chapters on three different arguments (actually, not different, they are in progression): mindfulness, concentration and the three knowledges and it directly connected with the "new" eigthfold path that includes right knowledge and right liberation. The chapter on mindfulness makes heavy use of the previous research to reconstruct the original Satipatthana practice. The chapter on concentration presents an analysis of the jhanic practice. Rodnell demonstrates with the analysis that the aruppas are later development, using Abdhidhamma, Path of Purification and Agamas to make his case. Another part of the chapter is dedicated to the question of the interpretation of Vitakka&Vicara. No surprises here: in the first Jhana, for Bucknell, there is kusala-only thought.
...

Could you say more on how he interprets jhāna?

[Ceisiwr]

Dr Bucknell's earlier views on Jhāna can be found here: https://www.academia.edu/26869487/Buckn ... ing_Jhanas

If his views have changed between now and then, I can't say. He is critical of the orthodox interpretation of Jhāna, but I find him to be quite fair and measured in doing so. Interestingly, I find him making similar arguments that I have proposed previously.

[nirodh27]

...
The third part is again 3 chapters on three different arguments (actually, not different, they are in progression): mindfulness, concentration and the three knowledges and it directly connected with the "new" eigthfold path that includes right knowledge and right liberation. The chapter on mindfulness makes heavy use of the previous research to reconstruct the original Satipatthana practice. The chapter on concentration presents an analysis of the jhanic practice. Rodnell demonstrates with the analysis that the aruppas are later development, using Abdhidhamma, Path of Purification and Agamas to make his case. Another part of the chapter is dedicated to the question of the interpretation of Vitakka&Vicara. No surprises here: in the first Jhana, for Bucknell, there is kusala-only thought.
...

Could you say more on how he interprets jhāna?

Hi Frankk,

What are you specifically interested of? I can make little citations from the Kindle, but I cannot copy-paste the entire book. There's nothing unusual or new in his arguments, I would say that the problems he sees are in plain sight like the Vitakka&Vicara and that the real concentration starts in second jhana etc. Here's the conclusion:

The analysis undertaken in this chapter has demonstrated the need to recognise that available accounts of the jhānas and āruppas date from different periods. Three textual strata can be distinguished: (1) the Sutta-piṭaka; (2) the Abhidhamma-piṭaka, specifically the Vibhaṅga and its non-Pali counterparts; and (3) Pali post-canonical manuals, such as Buddhaghosa’s Path of Purification. For the present attempt to identify what, among the available material, represents the earliest strand of Buddhism, only the Sutta-piṭaka is directly relevant. There are, however, at least three good reasons for referring to later accounts in the Abhidhamma and the writings of Buddhaghosa. First, doing this gives due recognition to the possibility that later Abhidhamma-type material has been inserted into the Sutta-piṭaka; second, it enables discrepancies between different descriptions of the first jhāna to be accounted for; and third, it demonstrates the value of a study like this that applies textual criticism to differentiate historically later influences and insertions. The investigation I have undertaken has consistently centred on what I have called “the basic pericope”, taking it as the reference point for comparison of any alternative account of the jhānas. The main justification for this is the remarkably high frequency of this pericope in the Sutta-piṭaka, together with the constancy of its wording from one school to another. Progress through the jhāna series is shown to be a process of successive subtraction, in which one mental function after another is temporarily made to cease. Initially unwholesome states are displaced by wholesome ones, and then the wholesome ones are superseded in their turn. Following attainment of jhāna 4, the process continues with the ceasing of material perception, marking the transition to the first of the non-material attainments or āruppas. Thereafter the progression is said to involve successive refinement of the non-material object of attention: from infinite space to infinite consciousness, to nothingness, and finally to “neither perception nor non-perception”. But while there is no doubt that the set of four jhānas formed part of the path of practice as transmitted in early Buddhism, the sequence of āruppas is very likely to be a later doctrinal development.

[frank k]

...
Hi Frankk,

What are you specifically interested of? I can make little citations from the Kindle, but I cannot copy-paste the entire book. There's nothing unusual or new in his arguments, I would say that the problems he sees are in plain sight like the Vitakka&Vicara and that the real concentration starts in second jhana etc. Here's the conclusion:
...

No need to cite from book, just a few brief statements summarizing will do. Does he have a correct interpretation of jhāna according to the EBT?
I'm surprised to learn you say he has a correct understanding of vitakka (verbal thought in first jhāna), becuase he helped edit those madhyama agama translations with Analayo, so must not have protested too hard. If I was working with Analayo, only one of us could be editor over that difference in vitakka. And if I was kicked off as editor, I'd be criticizing his wrong view all over the world in every academic journal in existence.
Also, he worked with Sujato and Brahmali on suttacentral, so if he had contrary views to them on jhana, he never made in public criticism of them on that issue.
A correct EBT interpretation on jhāna would include
1. verbal thought, mental talk in 1st jhāna
2. subverbal, nonverbal comprehension of mental activity, and vipassana, by means of sati and sampajāno, and upekkha. All four jhānas one does vipassana WHILE in jhāna, it is not a disembodied frozen stupor.
3. full awareness of physical body. 4 jhāna are percipient of rūpa (material form)

[Ceisiwr]

1. verbal thought, mental talk in 1st jhāna

What about people who don't think in terms of words, but rather in images?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_thinking

For me personally when I vitakka-vicāra I don't mentally verbalise, but I do have intentional thought and evaluation. Chattering thoughts can arise in meditation, but on can have vitakka-vicāra in relation to them. Vitakka-vicāra, for me, is "thought and evaluation" but it's something that comes before normal thinking. In my experience, thinking about the meditation gets in the way of meditation, and I came to know that normal thinking is a hindrance through vitakka-vicāra. It's quite liberating to know there can be an understanding, a deeper understanding, without any need for normal trains of thoughts to analyse things.

[nirodh27]

...
Hi Frankk,

What are you specifically interested of? I can make little citations from the Kindle, but I cannot copy-paste the entire book. There's nothing unusual or new in his arguments, I would say that the problems he sees are in plain sight like the Vitakka&Vicara and that the real concentration starts in second jhana etc. Here's the conclusion:
...

No need to cite from book, just a few brief statements summarizing will do. Does he have a correct interpretation of jhāna according to the EBT?
I'm surprised to learn you say he has a correct understanding of vitakka (verbal thought in first jhāna), becuase he helped edit those madhyama agama translations with Analayo, so must not have protested too hard. If I was working with Analayo, only one of us could be editor over that difference in vitakka. And if I was kicked off as editor, I'd be criticizing his wrong view all over the world in every academic journal in existence.
Also, he worked with Sujato and Brahmali on suttacentral, so if he had contrary views to them on jhana, he never made in public criticism of them on that issue.

I think that since Analayo was in charge, final decisions are made by him and remember that he is a scholar, he can be disinterested into how the Dhamma is propagated: what you see as a major problem, for him can be a simple academic disagreement between the others. I think that with this last book (and there's also a very recent paper specific of the first jhana, but I can't find it) he made his case in a very clear way and yes it is 100% Vitakka&Vicara compliant and I don't see any other issue as well .

Analayo is genuinely convinced that his translation is correct. Only arguments can change this an make this position untenable, Bucknell did it in his book and you should be glad that such an important academic did in his most important work.

[nirodh27]

Ok you've edited your post.

For

1. Yes
2. I need to check what he says exactly, there are some differences, when I have time I'll write it down. I too don't think that second jhana is a "great place" for Vipassana
3. I don't think it is touched directly, but separation is from desires, not from rupa.

[frank k]

...
I think that since Analayo was in charge, final decisions are made by him and remember that he is a scholar, he can be disinterested into how the Dhamma is propagated: what you see as a major problem, for him can be a simple academic disagreement between the others. ...

In Bucknell's bio on various google searches, it mentions he was a Theravada monk in Thai tradition.
I don't think you ordain for many years unless you really care deeply about these things, and it's not just an academic thing you can be disinterested in.

If what you say is true, then great, yes I am glad an academic is helping to set the record straight on jhāna.

But so did Keren Arbel (she has a Phd), so did Thanissaro (who doesn't have a phd and not officially a 'scholar'), and how much does that really help?

It takes more people speaking out when they seen injustice and wrong doing being committed in plain view egregiously.

[Pulsar]

Dearest Nirodh27, Previously I wrote

when I have the time, I will bring you another sutta, that shows the first establishment of mindfulness was not supposed to be on a physical body or a decaying body, or a rotting body.

Here is that sutta.
SN 12.66 On Exploration, AKA Sammasa sutta. SA 291 is the agama parallel
The narrative deals with a question to a monk, regarding his practice, which I interpret as "How does he meditate?"
Buddha queries 

"How do you engage in inward exploration?"

In the agama version it is called "Inner touch".

The Bhikkhu's explanation does not satisfy Buddha.

SN 12.66 does not explain why the Bhikkhus' answer was unsatisfactory, nor does the agama version explain the cause for Buddha's dissatisfaction. 
However Nirodh27, If you have a copy of BB's Samyutta Nikaya, check out the associated footnote, footnote 185.
It explains that the bhikkhu answered by way of thirty two aspects (of bodily foulness), 
Buddha had anticipated the answer to be conditionality.  
I often stress the importance of SN 47.42 on this forum, and on my jhana thread.
As long as one meditates on DN 22, MN 10???, in these suttas, where is origination of consciousness addressed?
The answer Buddha expected in SN 12.66 was a reference to DO, or conditionality.
in my experience of sutta studies, neighboring agama suttas offer clarification on the content of a sutta, that might be puzzling.
Here is a translation of SA 293. This sutta has no parallel in Pali. Why did the Pali compilers leave out such a helpful sutta?
This aroused my curiosity.
SA 293  (translated by Choong Mun-Keat),  An Excerpt from his translation.

"In this way I teach Dharma,
but the monks still have doubt and uncertainty, They cannot at first gain the perception that is to be gained, achieve the perception that is to be gained. 
Now having heard the dharma, their minds give rise to sorrow, regret, unawareness, and obstacles. Why is this so? Profound indeed is this, namely conditioned genesis; even more profound more difficult to see (perceive) is this, namely the extinction of all attachment, the destruction of craving, the fading away of desire, cessation: nirvana extinction of suffering"

What is the goal of meditation? It is to diminish suffering, to diminish  attachment.
Can one accomplish this goal without understanding those links of dependent origination that lead to the origination of suffering? ie nama-rupa gives rise to consciousness.
Many still think rupa is a physical body.
SA 293 shows us how even monastics of Buddha's day struggled with the notion of Paticca samuppada. So it is not surprising that some folks even today believe that Paticca samuppada deals with physical bodies.
Paticca samuppada deals with products of the physical world that are reflected in the
mind. Recollections of sights, sounds etc and their mental proliferation: naming of rupas that appear in the mind leads to suffering.
With love

[Ceisiwr]

Many still think rupa is a physical body.

Even if nama-rupa is a mere concept, rupa still means one’s physical body and senses.

[l_rivers]

I don't know if this applies but I just stumbled into this distinction in another context JIABS 16.2, *

This ambiguity of rupa-sanha corresponds to an ambiguity in the word rupa: rupa is sometimes "visible form" (the object of visual perception) and sometimes "matter, materiality" (as when contrasted with noma or with ariipa).21

21. See Pali-English Dictionary 574-575, rupa, 1 and 2


* RODERICK S. BUCKNELL Reinterpreting the Jhānas 375

[Ceisiwr]

I don't know if this applies but I just stumbled into this distinction in another context JIABS 16.2, *

This ambiguity of rupa-sanha corresponds to an ambiguity in the word rupa: rupa is sometimes "visible form" (the object of visual perception) and sometimes "matter, materiality" (as when contrasted with noma or with ariipa).21

21. See Pali-English Dictionary 574-575, rupa, 1 and 2


* RODERICK S. BUCKNELL Reinterpreting the Jhānas 375

In the context of dependent origination it’s one’s physical form.