The difference between Rupa and Kaya

[Bundokji]

Friends,

I am opening this thread running the risk of trying to investigate two terms that possible have little to do with each other, making a fool of myself in the process

Rupa is often translated as form whereas Kaya is translated as body. Is not the body known by being formed in time and space?

In your understanding, what is the difference between the two in the context of the Buddha's teachings?

Many thanks

[mjaviem]

In my understanding eupa is the form aggregate while kaya is the collection of all aggregates. But I could be badly mistaken

[Ontheway]

Rupa as in the Pancakhandha is "materiality". And in this sense, Rupa includes Cakkhu (eyes), Sota (ears), Ghana (nose), Jivha (tongue), Kāya (body). Though what can be perceived by Cakkhu is Rupa too. Eg: My eyes see another person's eyes. It possessed physical appearance and it exhibits the nature of being "ruppati" as taught in both Khajjanīyasutta and further explained in Visuddhimagga (can be translated as "molested", "deformed", "wear down", depends on which English word you liked).

But, Kāya as in Ānāpānassati is referring to Vedanā, Saññā and Saṅkhāra. It carries the meaning as a "group" or "a body of something something".

[Ceisiwr]

It depends on the context.

[Bundokji]

Rupa as in the Pancakhandha is "materiality". And in this sense, Rupa includes Cakkhu (eyes), Sota (ears), Ghana (nose), Jivha (tongue), Kāya (body). Though what can be perceived by Cakkhu is Rupa too. Eg: My eyes see another person's eyes. It possessed physical appearance and it exhibits the nature of being "ruppati" as taught in both Khajjanīyasutta and further explained in Visuddhimagga (can be translated as "molested", "deformed", "wear down", depends on which English word you liked).

But, Kāya as in Ānāpānassati is referring to Vedanā, Saññā and Saṅkhāra. It carries the meaning as a "group" or "a body of something something".

Would you say that kaya is the body as known in rupa loka, whereas rupa is the body as known in kamma loka which is inseparable from nama?

[Ontheway]

Rupa as in the Pancakhandha is "materiality". And in this sense, Rupa includes Cakkhu (eyes), Sota (ears), Ghana (nose), Jivha (tongue), Kāya (body). Though what can be perceived by Cakkhu is Rupa too. Eg: My eyes see another person's eyes. It possessed physical appearance and it exhibits the nature of being "ruppati" as taught in both Khajjanīyasutta and further explained in Visuddhimagga (can be translated as "molested", "deformed", "wear down", depends on which English word you liked).

But, Kāya as in Ānāpānassati is referring to Vedanā, Saññā and Saṅkhāra. It carries the meaning as a "group" or "a body of something something".

Would you say that kaya is the body as known in rupa loka, whereas rupa is the body as known in kamma loka which is inseparable from nama?

I don't get what you trying to say.

But both Kamavacara worlds and Rupa (Brahma) worlds contain what we called "Rupa".

[justindesilva]

Rupa as in the Pancakhandha is "materiality". And in this sense, Rupa includes Cakkhu (eyes), Sota (ears), Ghana (nose), Jivha (tongue), Kāya (body). Though what can be perceived by Cakkhu is Rupa too. Eg: My eyes see another person's eyes. It possessed physical appearance and it exhibits the nature of being "ruppati" as taught in both Khajjanīyasutta and further explained in Visuddhimagga (can be translated as "molested", "deformed", "wear down", depends on which English word you liked).

But, Kāya as in Ānāpānassati is referring to Vedanā, Saññā and Saṅkhāra. It carries the meaning as a "group" or "a body of something something".

Would you say that kaya is the body as known in rupa loka, whereas rupa is the body as known in kamma loka which is inseparable from nama?

I don't get what you trying to say.

But both Kamavacara worlds and Rupa (Brahma) worlds contain what we called "Rupa".

Rupa is a conditioned collection of apo, tejo, vayo , patavi. sankara being formation is kaya sankara is the conditioning of that sankara or formation while breath becomes a part of such formation or kaya. One may say that kaya is the living rupa or living collection of apo tejo vayo patavi .

[mjaviem]

Could the five internal sense bases (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body) be 'kaya'?

[Coëmgenu]

Kāya is a very general word. Scriptures are called nikāyas. The mind is a "viññāṇakāya." Rūpa is considerably less general, but it's still contextual. Rūpasaññā is often just called "rūpa," for instance, in early Buddhist texts, creating a huge host of problems for uninformed readers.

[Bundokji]

Kāya is a very general word. Scriptures are called nikāyas. The mind is a "viññāṇakāya." Rūpa is considerably less general, but it's still contextual. Rūpasaññā is often just called "rūpa," for instance, in early Buddhist texts, creating a huge host of problems for uninformed readers.

Would it be accurate to say that kāya is associated with wisdom while Rūpa with dependently originated phenomena?

For example,rūpa as one of the aggregates is suffering because it gets deformed according to SN 22.79. The more general meaning of kāya makes it more inline with the emptiness of form, more mind-made as you mentioned.

[Bundokji]

Would you say that kaya is the body as known in rupa loka, whereas rupa is the body as known in kamma loka which is inseparable from nama?

I don't get what you trying to say.

But both Kamavacara worlds and Rupa (Brahma) worlds contain what we called "Rupa".

Rupa is a conditioned collection of apo, tejo, vayo , patavi. sankara being formation is kaya sankara is the conditioning of that sankara or formation while breath becomes a part of such formation or kaya. One may say that kaya is the living rupa or living collection of apo tejo vayo patavi .

Would it be accurate to say that the puthujjana is the dhammakaya where the earth element is dominant?

[Coëmgenu]

Would it be accurate to say that kāya is associated with wisdom while Rūpa with dependently originated phenomena?

I wouldn't say so, because the viññāṇakāyas are the six viññāṇas of DO. Also we have the nāmakāya and rūpakāya: both dependently originated.

[Bundokji]

Would it be accurate to say that kāya is associated with wisdom while Rūpa with dependently originated phenomena?

I wouldn't say so, because the viññāṇakāyas are the six viññāṇas of DO. Also we have the nāmakāya and rūpakāya: both dependently originated.

There seems to be many different ways to differentiate the two. Viññāṇa is only one of the knowledge where the prefix "vi" seems to indicate lack of reliability. I am not sure if rūpa can be used accurately to describe a higher knowledge such as by practitioners who attained the Jhanas. For those who have gone beyond nama-rupa, rupa could be a mere appearance, or its primacy as a center of gravity or as a stable reference would be no longer relevant.

My conjecture is dependent on associating dhamma with kaya (truth body) rather than rupa.

[Ceisiwr]

It all depends on the context. Sometimes kāya mean your physical body, other times it means the 5 aggregates and so includes immaterial dhammas. At other times, when used by non-Buddhist ascetics, it means "substance". Likewise, rūpa too can have different meanings depending on the context.

[Ceisiwr]

Would it be accurate to say that kāya is associated with wisdom while Rūpa with dependently originated phenomena?

I wouldn't say so, because the viññāṇakāyas are the six viññāṇas of DO. Also we have the nāmakāya and rūpakāya: both dependently originated.

There seems to be many different ways to differentiate the two. Viññāṇa is only one of the knowledge where the prefix "vi" seems to indicate lack of reliability. I am not sure if rūpa can be used accurately to describe a higher knowledge such as by practitioners who attained the Jhanas. For those who have gone beyond nama-rupa, rupa could be a mere appearance, or its primacy as a center of gravity or as a stable reference would be no longer relevant.

My conjecture is dependent on associating dhamma with kaya (truth body) rather than rupa.

I'm not an expert in Pāli, but the prefixes don't always mean something. I think viññāṇa is an example of this.