Ignorance as a dependently arisen condition.

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Sam Vara
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Ignorance as a dependently arisen condition.

Post by Sam Vara »

In SN 22.81 (Palileyyasutta) the Buddha explains how we can achieve the immediate destruction of the taints by knowing and seeing in the following way.

Whatever one regards as self, or as relating to a self, that regarding is a formation (sankhara). It is born from craving which arises from a feeling born of ignorance-contact. Thus, the sankhara (the regarding) is impermanent, conditioned, and dependently arisen. And so are each of the components: the craving, the feeling, the contact, and the ignorance.
Here, bhikkhus, the uninstructed worldling, who is not a seer of the noble ones and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, who is not a seer of superior persons and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, regards form as self. That regarding, bhikkhus, is a formation. That formation—what is its source, what is its origin, from what is it born and produced? When the uninstructed worldling is contacted by a feeling born of ignorance-contact, craving arises: thence that formation is born.

“Thus, bhikkhus, that formation is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen; that craving is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen; that feeling is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen; that contact is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen; that ignorance is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen. When one knows and sees thus, bhikkhus, the immediate destruction of the taints occurs.
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.81/en/bod ... ight=false

Now, it's easy to see (I think! This might be the height of ignorant presumptuousness... :embarassed: ) how the formation (the regarding) is conditioned by the craving; and how the craving is conditioned by the contact; etc. But what sense can we make here of the ignorance being impermanent, conditioned, and dependently arisen? The sutta doesn't explicitly claim that the ignorance has obvious determining factors. It is at the end of the line of factors which contribute to the dependently-arisen nature of the regarding.

Does the Buddha say elsewhere why ignorance is impermanent, conditioned, and dependently arisen? And what sort of ignorance must we envisage, if it is to have these characteristics?

In addition, what do you think is meant by the term avijjāsamphassajena (born by means of contact with ignorance)? I remember discussing this here, probably with Mike, and maybe a decade ago. But I can't remember what sense I made of it then.
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Re: Ignorance as a dependently arisen condition.

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AN 10.61 Bodhi wrote: “Bhikkhus, this is said: ‘A first point of ignorance, bhikkhus, is not seen such that before this there was no ignorance and afterward it came into being.’ Still, ignorance is seen to have a specific condition.

“I say, bhikkhus, that ignorance has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for ignorance? It should be said: the five hindrances. ...
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Re: Ignorance as a dependently arisen condition.

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Sam Vara wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:21 pm ...
In addition, what do you think is meant by the term avijjāsamphassajena (born by means of contact with ignorance)?...
SN 22.47 Bodhi wrote:... When the uninstructed worldling is contacted by a feeling born of ignorance-contact, ‘I am’ occurs to him; ‘I am this’ occurs to him; ‘I will be’ and ‘I will not be,’ and ‘I will consist of form’ and ‘I will be formless,’ and ‘I will be percipient’ and ‘I will be nonpercipient’ and ‘I will be neither percipient nor nonpercipient’—these occur to him. ...
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Re: Ignorance as a dependently arisen condition.

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mjaviem wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:48 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:21 pm ...
In addition, what do you think is meant by the term avijjāsamphassajena (born by means of contact with ignorance)?...
SN 22.47 Bodhi wrote:... When the uninstructed worldling is contacted by a feeling born of ignorance-contact, ‘I am’ occurs to him; ‘I am this’ occurs to him; ‘I will be’ and ‘I will not be,’ and ‘I will consist of form’ and ‘I will be formless,’ and ‘I will be percipient’ and ‘I will be nonpercipient’ and ‘I will be neither percipient nor nonpercipient’—these occur to him. ...
Yes, thanks for this, and the other post. This one seems to be a repetition of the point made in the sutta I quoted (SN 22.81) which makes it consistent, but not any more informative. The different ways of conceiving of a self are traced back to this feeling born of ignorance-contact. But does it mean contacting ignorance? Or contacting something while being ignorant? It's an odd term.
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Re: Ignorance as a dependently arisen condition.

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Atthakatha for it:
But why is ignorance stated as the beginning here? How then, is ignorance the causeless root-cause of the world like the Primordial Essence of those who assert the existence of a Primordial Essence? It is not causeless. For a cause of ignorance is stated thus, “With the arising of cankers there is the arising of ignorance” (M I 54). But there is a figurative way in which it can be treated as the root cause. What way is that? When it is made to serve as a starting point in an exposition of the round [of becoming].

37. For the Blessed One gives the exposition of the round with one of two things as the starting point: either ignorance, according as it is said, “No first beginning of ignorance is made known, bhikkhus, before which there was no ignorance, and after which there came to be ignorance. And while it is said thus, bhikkhus, nevertheless it is made known that ignorance has its specific condition” (A V 113); or craving for becoming, according as it is said, “No first beginning of craving for becoming is made known, bhikkhus, before which there was no craving for becoming, and after which there came to be craving for becoming. And while it is said thus, bhikkhus, nevertheless it is made known that craving for becoming has its specific condition” (A V 116).

38. But why does the Blessed One give the exposition of the round with those two things as starting points? Because they are the outstanding causes of kamma that leads to happy and unhappy destinies.
- Visuddhimagga (Paññā Bhumi Niddesa)
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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Re: Ignorance as a dependently arisen condition.

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Sam Vara wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:01 pm ... not any more informative... does it mean contacting ignorance?...
What does it mean "contacting ignorance"? Where do we see such a concept in the suttas?
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Re: Ignorance as a dependently arisen condition.

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Ontheway wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:15 pm Atthakatha for it:
But why is ignorance stated as the beginning here? How then, is ignorance the causeless root-cause of the world like the Primordial Essence of those who assert the existence of a Primordial Essence? It is not causeless. For a cause of ignorance is stated thus, “With the arising of cankers there is the arising of ignorance” (M I 54). But there is a figurative way in which it can be treated as the root cause. What way is that? When it is made to serve as a starting point in an exposition of the round [of becoming].

37. For the Blessed One gives the exposition of the round with one of two things as the starting point: either ignorance, according as it is said, “No first beginning of ignorance is made known, bhikkhus, before which there was no ignorance, and after which there came to be ignorance. And while it is said thus, bhikkhus, nevertheless it is made known that ignorance has its specific condition” (A V 113); or craving for becoming, according as it is said, “No first beginning of craving for becoming is made known, bhikkhus, before which there was no craving for becoming, and after which there came to be craving for becoming. And while it is said thus, bhikkhus, nevertheless it is made known that craving for becoming has its specific condition” (A V 116).

38. But why does the Blessed One give the exposition of the round with those two things as starting points? Because they are the outstanding causes of kamma that leads to happy and unhappy destinies.
- Visuddhimagga (Paññā Bhumi Niddesa)
Excellent, that's helpful. :anjali:
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Re: Ignorance as a dependently arisen condition.

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mjaviem wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:24 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:01 pm ... not any more informative... does it mean contacting ignorance?...
What does it mean "contacting ignorance"? Where do we see such a concept in the suttas?
That's what I'm asking; if that's what it means.
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Re: Ignorance as a dependently arisen condition.

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Sam Vara wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:26 pm
mjaviem wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:24 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:01 pm ... not any more informative... does it mean contacting ignorance?...
What does it mean "contacting ignorance"? Where do we see such a concept in the suttas?
That's what I'm asking; if that's what it means.
I’ve always read it not as contacting ignorance but rather contact under ignorance, which is to crave and cling when there is contact. The opposite then is wise contact, where we don’t crave and cling what is contacted.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Ignorance as a dependently arisen condition.

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:28 pm I’ve always read it not as contacting ignorance but rather contact under ignorance, which is to crave and cling when there is contact. The opposite then is wise contact, where we don’t crave and cling what is contacted.
Do you happen to know a sutta where it talks about wise contact?
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Re: Ignorance as a dependently arisen condition.

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:28 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:26 pm
mjaviem wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:24 pm
What does it mean "contacting ignorance"? Where do we see such a concept in the suttas?
That's what I'm asking; if that's what it means.
I’ve always read it not as contacting ignorance but rather contact under ignorance, which is to crave and cling when there is contact. The opposite then is wise contact, where we don’t crave and cling what is contacted.
Yes, that makes sense. I guess that also makes ignorance something like "not knowing the way things are". Because if we did, we wouldn't cling.
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Re: Ignorance as a dependently arisen condition.

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Sam Vara wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:31 pm
Yes, that makes sense. I guess that also makes ignorance something like "not knowing the way things are". Because if we did, we wouldn't cling.
SN 22.83 Bodhi wrote:...
“It is by clinging, Ānanda, that the notion ‘I am’ occurs, not without clinging...

“Suppose, friend Ānanda, a young woman—or a man—youthful and fond of ornaments, would examine her own facial image in a mirror or in a bowl filled with pure, clear, clean water: she would look at it with clinging, not without clinging...
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Re: Ignorance as a dependently arisen condition.

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mjaviem wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:30 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:28 pm I’ve always read it not as contacting ignorance but rather contact under ignorance, which is to crave and cling when there is contact. The opposite then is wise contact, where we don’t crave and cling what is contacted.
Do you happen to know a sutta where it talks about wise contact?
The sutra parallel does. I think a sutta does too but I need to check.
Therefore the well-learned noble disciple, having given up ignorance regarding these six sense organs and wisdom arises and: the experience of existence, the experience of non existence, the experience of existence and non existence, the experience that I am superior, the experience that I am equal, the experience that I am inferior, the experience that I know, the experience that I see, the experience that I know like this and the experience that I see like this, do not arise. The ignorant contact which had arisen before is destroyed and thereafter wise contact and experience arise.”
https://suttacentral.net/sa45/en/smith? ... ight=false
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Ignorance as a dependently arisen condition.

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mjaviem wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:30 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:28 pm I’ve always read it not as contacting ignorance but rather contact under ignorance, which is to crave and cling when there is contact. The opposite then is wise contact, where we don’t crave and cling what is contacted.
Do you happen to know a sutta where it talks about wise contact?
There is this:
"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental.

"As he is touched by that painful feeling, he is not resistant. No resistance-obsession with regard to that painful feeling obsesses him. Touched by that painful feeling, he does not delight in sensual pleasure. Why is that? Because the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns an escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure. As he is not delighting in sensual pleasure, no passion-obsession with regard to that feeling of pleasure obsesses him. He discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, and escape from that feeling. As he discerns the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, and escape from that feeling, no ignorance-obsession with regard to that feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain obsesses him.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Re: Ignorance as a dependently arisen condition.

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:37 pm The sutra parallel does...

https://suttacentral.net/sa45/en/smith? ... ight=false
Thanks, though I would like to see if wise contact is in the Nikayas. You know I like Ajahn Buddhadasa's talks and he talks about ignorant-contact and wise-contact many times but I have never read a sutta about wise contact. I understand that the wise thing is the cessation of contact. Contact is to be regarded like a skinned cow like in the Son's flesh sutta. So I'd like to read more about it.
Sam Vara wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:38 pm There is this:
...
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
I don't think so. That's not the contact that is the condition for feeling. That's about clinging to feeling. I think there "touched" is "attachment"
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