Dukkha according to ven. Jayasaro

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mjaviem
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Dukkha according to ven. Jayasaro

Post by mjaviem »

I think this I have read on the forum from bhante is wrong.
=Dukkha=

"The meaning of dukkha as one of the three characteristics of existence is different from that of dukkha as a Noble Truth.
...
I think they are the same. The problem is existence. The very existence is dukkha. This is one of the Noble Truths: All there is is just dukkha.
...
In the Three Characteristics, dukkha refers to the inherent instability of all impermanent conditioned phenomena.

In the Four Noble Truths, dukkha refers to the experience of the unenlightened mind. This mind habitually reacts to an inner and outer world charaterized by impermanence and instability with craving and attachment. Here, dukkha is the sense of lack, incompletion, hollowness, unsatisfactoriness inseperable from a life founded upon such reactions.
...
Bhante understands in terms of duality: An inner and an outer world and also the mind and phenomena. He understands craving and attachment as unrelated to this impermanent and unstable world.
...

Dukkha in the 'tilakkhana' is unaffected by the appearance of a Buddha. It is woven into the very fabric of existence. Dukkha as a Noble Truth, on the other hand, can be completely eliminated through practice of the Buddha's teaching."

Ajahn Jayasāro
17/5/22
Bhante envisions an existence free of dukkha. He still conceives, I say.

:anjali:
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Alino
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Re: Dukkha according to ven. Jayasaro

Post by Alino »

Hello,

If i understand well, what Venerable Ajahn pointed out is that the very fabric of existence is dukkha (tilakkhana), but we can stop suffering about it (4NT)...

:anjali:
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
SarathW
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Re: Dukkha according to ven. Jayasaro

Post by SarathW »

"Sabbe Sankahara Dukkha" = All volitional activities suffering
"Avijjaya paccaya Sankhara" = Volitional activities are a result of ignorance (volitional activities based on ignorance is suffering )
"Panca Upadana skandha Dukkha" = Clinging aggregate is suffering. (clinging aggregate is a result of ignorance)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
justindesilva
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Re: Dukkha according to ven. Jayasaro

Post by justindesilva »

Alino wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 4:16 am Hello,

If i understand well, what Venerable Ajahn pointed out is that the very fabric of existence is dukkha (tilakkhana), but we can stop suffering about it (4NT)...

:anjali:
The fabric of existence is covered by anitya dukka . We beings are energy fabricated in to form or rupa. Anitya means the impermanence of such fabrication. This impernance is countered by conversion of energy to form with what we eat and drink.
This conversion is in fact metabolism which was termed as dukka. Metabolism is conversion of matter in to energy. Samsara or contnuation of rupa through time in to future. Hence dukka is that reaction of energy to continue through samsara, written in pali language . But dukka is our feeling of that reaction.
pegembara
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Re: Dukkha according to ven. Jayasaro

Post by pegembara »

...
In the Three Characteristics, dukkha refers to the inherent instability of all impermanent conditioned phenomena.

In the Four Noble Truths, dukkha refers to the experience of the unenlightened mind. This mind habitually reacts to an inner and outer world charaterized by impermanence and instability with craving and attachment. Here, dukkha is the sense of lack, incompletion, hollowness, unsatisfactoriness inseperable from a life founded upon such reactions.
I think the bhante takes dukkha to be synonymous with anicca. This is not the same as suffering as per 4NT.
Change is just a fact of life or the fabric of existence.

Suffering only happens when one expects what is inherently impermanent and unstable/unreliable to be otherwise. The impermanence of anger or depression is in fact a good thing! But expecting to be in a state of bliss all the time is unrealistic and leads to suffering—ditto for good relationships.

In short, impermanence itself is not suffering. That nature of existence is reality and nothing can be done about it. But expecting what is inherently anicca/dukkha to be otherwise is what leads to suffering in the sense intended by the 4NT.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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mjaviem
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Re: Dukkha according to ven. Jayasaro

Post by mjaviem »

Alino wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 4:16 am ...
If i understand well, what Venerable Ajahn pointed out is that the very fabric of existence is dukkha (tilakkhana), but we can stop suffering about it (4NT)...
...
There's no 'we' versus the world. There's only craving for forms/feelings/perceptions/formations/consciousness. When there is craving/desire there is clinging. Clinging to the aggregates subject to clinging is not the same nor separate from the aggregates subject to clinging.
SN 22.82 Bodhi wrote:...
“But, venerable sir, in what are these five aggregates subject to clinging rooted?”

“These five aggregates subject to clinging, bhikkhu, are rooted in desire.”

“Venerable sir, is that clinging the same as these five aggregates subject to clinging, or is the clinging something apart from the five aggregates subject to clinging?”

“Bhikkhus, that clinging is neither the same as these five aggregates subject to clinging, nor is the clinging something apart from the five aggregates subject to clinging. But rather, the desire and lust for them, that is the clinging there.”
...
The very aggregates subject to clinging are the suffering as explained in the first Noble Truth:
SN 56.13 Bodhi wrote:...
“And what, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering? It should be said: the five aggregates subject to clinging; that is, the form aggregate subject to clinging … the consciousness aggregate subject to clinging. This is called the noble truth of suffering.
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But this suffering can cease as explained by the third Noble Truth.
SN 12.15 Bodhi wrote:...
“This world, Kaccana, is for the most part shackled by engagement, clinging, and adherence. But this one with right view does not become engaged and cling through that engagement and clinging, mental standpoint, adherence, underlying tendency; he does not take a stand about ‘my self.’ He has no perplexity or doubt that what arises is only suffering arising, what ceases is only suffering ceasing. His knowledge about this is independent of others. It is in this way, Kaccana, that there is right view
...
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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mjaviem
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Re: Dukkha according to ven. Jayasaro

Post by mjaviem »

pegembara wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 7:24 am ...
Suffering only happens when one expects what is inherently impermanent and unstable/unreliable to be otherwise...
...
SN 12.44 Bodhi wrote:...
“And what, bhikkhus, is the origin of the world? In dependence on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be; with feeling as condition, craving; with craving as condition, clinging; with clinging as condition, existence; with existence as condition, birth; with birth as condition, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. This, bhikkhus, is the origin of the world.
...
pegembara wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 7:24 am ... That nature of existence is reality and nothing can be done about it.
SN 12.44 Bodhi wrote:...
“And what, bhikkhus, is the passing away of the world? In dependence on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be; with feeling as condition, craving. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of existence; with the cessation of existence, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is the passing away of the world.
...
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
pegembara
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Re: Dukkha according to ven. Jayasaro

Post by pegembara »

mjaviem wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 4:36 pm
pegembara wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 7:24 am ...
Suffering only happens when one expects what is inherently impermanent and unstable/unreliable to be otherwise...
...
SN 12.44 Bodhi wrote:...
“And what, bhikkhus, is the origin of the world? In dependence on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be; with feeling as condition, craving; with craving as condition, clinging; with clinging as condition, existence; with existence as condition, birth; with birth as condition, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. This, bhikkhus, is the origin of the world.
...
pegembara wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 7:24 am ... That nature of existence is reality and nothing can be done about it.
SN 12.44 Bodhi wrote:...
“And what, bhikkhus, is the passing away of the world? In dependence on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be; with feeling as condition, craving. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of existence; with the cessation of existence, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is the passing away of the world.
...
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And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

There is sankhara dukkha, the 'stored up' pain and misery that isn't known until the conditions are such that the fruit of past kammas ripen and rise into consciousness, there to be felt and either reacted to and recreated for future sufferings or the re-action tendency abandoned and the dukkha let go of, not to rise again. Then there is the dukkha inherent in all phenomena irrespective of whether there is someone around to feel or know it. Think of that as 'instability' to be either experienced as a burden, if the tendency is to cling, or as anicca or a stream of moments, each different from any other and so is continuously let go of.
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