Arahant with Bad Manners

[Coëmgenu]

My purpose is not to thrash talk or name and shame an individual which is why I did not post the podcast I was just curious why a jhana practitioners would be swearing on a buddhist podcast of all places.Ofcourse jhana is very mundane but a Buddhist podcast?@^#*@

The Buddha swore. I believe there are passages where he says shit, piss and f***.

Those are three very English swear words. "f***" is probably the oldest English swear word that exists. Likely he talked about defecation, urination, and copulation, but how do you know that these three words were "swearing" in the target language? To this day, French folks in Quebec swear with words like "the host!" and "the tabernacle!" If you randomly insert a version of the word "poop" into your sentence, no matter how rude, it won't necessarily make sense as "a swear" in a non-English language.

[Joe.c]

Hi,

Can anyone give me the sutta about an arahant who,I forgot the story,but I think he was rude to someone and someone said it's because of his old habits..

I'm not sure if this is a story from the sutta.

I am asking because I recently heard a podcast about a person who was skilled in the Jhanas but when explaining their ex partner used choiceful words which I thought was so bizzare.Who would swear on a buddhist podcast..?

Thanks.

Need to hear or see the podcast.

If it is just a label based on right description, it is fine. You will find this type of label that describe type of person such as Vacchagotta “the angry man” or Vacchagotta on fire etc. When one say the name/label, there is no anger.

If it is based on emotion (anger/hate) or something untrue, then it is not possible for this person to have reach jhana (samma samadhi). Because jhana is a pure state.

[Ceisiwr]

My purpose is not to thrash talk or name and shame an individual which is why I did not post the podcast I was just curious why a jhana practitioners would be swearing on a buddhist podcast of all places.Ofcourse jhana is very mundane but a Buddhist podcast?@^#*@

The Buddha swore. I believe there are passages where he says shit, piss and f***.

Those are three very English swear words. "f***" is probably the oldest English swear word that exists. Likely he talked about defecation, urination, and copulation, but how do you know that these three words were "swearing" in the target language? To this day, French folks in Quebec swear with words like "the host!" and "the tabernacle!" If you randomly insert a version of the word "poop" into your sentence, no matter how rude, it won't necessarily make sense as "a swear" in a non-English language.

A bit above my paygrade, but we do see words such as "piss" or "shit" in some translations. There is this old post from Venerable Pesala

It's all about intent, and whether it qualifies as harsh speech or not will depend on your intention. How it is regarded by others depends a lot on who is listening.

The Buddha was highly cultured and refined, but used the vernacular at times. If you translate the Pāḷi while trying to use polite words, the meaning can be lost. For example: “Tayome, bhikkhave, puggalā santo saṃvijjamānā lokasmiṃ. Katame tayo? Gūthabhāṇī, pupphabhāṇī, madhubhāṇī. ” (A.i.128)

“Monks, there are three kinds of individual found in the world. The speaker of shit, the speaker of flowers, and the speaker of honey. ”

I think that is better, and probably more accurately translates the intent than:

“Monks, there are three kinds of individual found in the world. The speaker of excrement, the speaker of flowers, and the speaker of honey. ”

viewtopic.php?t=26160

I think I recall Venerable Dhammanando writing that a certain word was better translated as "f***", but for the life of me I can't find the post (it was some years ago).

Do you think the Buddha would have used swear words?

[Ceisiwr]

The Buddha swore. I believe there are passages where he says shit, piss and f***.

Please provide the sutta / passages. Don’t misrepresent something that is not there.

See above.

[Coëmgenu]

A bit above my paygrade, but we do see words such as "piss" or "shit" in some translations.

Those are swear words in English, and are also graphic descriptions in the area of the text they are contextualized in, but are they "swear words" in Middle Indic Prākrit, or did they swear by saying "Prajāpati!" or even "the Veda!" or something completely unintuitive to us? Maybe they had familial-piety-based swear words, saying things like "grandfather!" like some cultures do.

AFAIK, there is no transcribed spoken vernacular from the time of the Buddha. The suttas/sūtras are all in very formal language. The sort of vocabulary "the common man" might use at this time is poorly-attested. Certainly, they likely weren't talking about hifalutin metaphysical propositions like "saṃskāras."

Do you have anything to the contrary?

Do you think the Buddha would have used swear words?

It's possible, if we presume the pedagogical situation demanded it. Maybe he swore to get someone's attention when they were idle. Who knows? Swear words are simply taboo words that people consider impolite.

[Ceisiwr]

Do you have anything to the contrary?

Sadly no. Venerable Dhammanando would be the better person to ask.

[santa100]

Once we begin to use the "old energy habit" argument, the notion that its impossible for an Ariya to break the precepts becomes questionable if you understand what i mean. They could lie or kill due to their old habits/kamma.

There are stories where the noble ones were on the receiving end of kammic retribution such as in the case of Ven. Moggallāna. While the venerable could not avoid the Vipāka of an old action, he appeared to be totally in control of his own actions. The story of Ven. Pilindavaccha indicates otherwise.

From Ud 3.6 account and combine that with AN 1.215, there's no indication of foul play in the story. The same word, or even the same sentence have to be taken into context to determine whether the speaker spoke with ill intent or not. And more importantly, whether the listener interprets it as words spoken with ill intent or not, like that funny scene in the film "Rush Hour". The same exact sentence uttered by 2 different people resulted in 2 very different "Kamma"s:

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[form]

The Buddha swore. I believe there are passages where he says shit, piss and f***.

Please provide the sutta / passages. Don’t misrepresent something that is not there.

The worst case he did is to scold someone stupid. But in his actual language and tone, he could just mean you foolish one as in acting In an unwholesome way.

[Joe.c]

See above.

Ud. 3.6 is not. It is considered as just a label for that persons. For example someone who is poor. Will you call him poor person or not rich? The meaning is the same, but some people just have habit of using certain words.

There is no bad intention behind the use of the words. But it is difficult to know. This is why Buddha asked to call the person who said the word. Upon checking this person mind, he knew.

But like most of us that can’t read people mind. It is just better pass before make any judgement.

But still if you practice in line of dhamma, you can know after certain level. One can observe the person behaviors, words, interaction, etc. Buddha taught a lot in sutta if you know what I’m saying.

[Joe.c]

The worst case he did is to scold someone stupid. But in his actual language and tone, he could just mean you foolish one as in acting In an unwholesome way.

Haha… yeah.

Buddha called stupid people as stupid/foolish people especially those who didn’t follow his instruction. I bet he dislike people that stay around and not practice hard. You will find some of these people mentioned in Sutta.

[confusedlayman]

Dont blame the buddha... he is perfect one

[Pulsar]

It looks like Celsiwir swears that

The Buddha swore. I believe there are passages where he says shit, piss and f***.

he wrote.
Here are some passages to the contrary.
Pingiya's Praises of "The way to the Beyond" Excerpts.
Pingiya:

going beyond formations, going beyond comparisons, going beyond doubt. A mind released: describing Buddha

Does anyone think a mind released will say shit, piss and f***.
another excerpt:

He has opened the curtains and woken up. There is nothing barren there; his mind is clear and luminous.

Does anyone think a luminous mind will say shit, and f***?
Only a messed up person will post such a derogatory comment about Buddha.
Another excerpt

"There isn't any reason why a man like him should lie-a mammoth of knowledge and completely pure, a man without desire"

Does anyone think a man without desire will say shit, piss and f***?
Such a man has no desire to be calumnious.
If anyone on the forum can find a passage from the canon that says
The Buddha swore, that there are passages in the scripture where Buddha says shit, piss and f***.
I will give that person whatever s/he wishes. This is not hard, since there are no passages in the canon that says Buddha swore or that he ever said shit, piss and f***
Only a deluded person will post such comments about Tathagata, on a public forum.
With love

[Ceisiwr]

Does anyone think a mind released will say shit, piss and f***.

I don’t see why not, depending on the occasion. Why wouldn’t they?

[santa100]

Does anyone think a mind released will say shit, piss and f***.

Just by inference, it's highly unlikely, cuz it doesn't even require an enlightened person to not doing that. Any unenlightened gentleman/woman would hardly ever resort to saying those words explicitly. If s/he has to take a piss, they'd probably say they has to use the bathroom, or worst case, need to take a leak, or urinate, or something. Similarly for shit and f..., they'd be more likely to use other words that still get the meaning across without the explicit terms. Now, the only reason I said "highly unlikely" instead of "absolutely not" is because I don't know if the ancient language people used back then during the Buddha's time employed those more gentle/polite terms as alternatives to the explicits. It'd require some linguistic expert specialized in that language to say for certain.

[Joe.c]

I don’t see why not, depending on the occasion. Why wouldn’t they?

Look like you don’t understand the power of Samma Ditthi. Buddha has completed the N8FP path, he has the wisdom.

Along the way of constructing the path, an arahant also perfecting morality, perfecting sense restraint, perfecting samadhi, and perfecting wisdom.

An arahant will have sati sampajanna to watch vitakka vicara right before it broke into speech.

So if you hear someone called themselves as an arahant, but they have emotion or swear a lot. I would say it is almost impossible one is an arahant. Because swearing or even talking disturb the samadhi.

Why would one who has understood make their body or mind stress/dukkha again?