He already has. The problem is that you refuse to accept it. You refusing to accept conclusions that clash with your particular view of what the Buddha was like is a common theme in your posting.santa100 wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 6:55 pm And here I'll cut you some slack, even if the vagina word was there, that'd still not back up your claim about a direct comparison, all it said is the "act of putting the monk's organ there" would result in much graver consequences than putting it inside a cobra's mouth or a charcoal pit. This is as clear as it can get. But I still wait for you to point out a single sentence to back up your claim of the Buddha directly compared the vagina to the cobra's mouth.
Arahant with Bad Manners
Re: Arahant with Bad Manners
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Arahant with Bad Manners
And you clearly are not even able to tell the difference between the act and the object.
Re: Arahant with Bad Manners
Re: Arahant with Bad Manners
Not me, it's you who already have a set particular wrong view of what the Buddha was like. I simply correct it for you.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 6:58 pmHe already has. The problem is that you refuse to accept it. You refusing to accept conclusions that clash with your particular view of what the Buddha was like is a common theme in your posting.santa100 wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 6:55 pm And here I'll cut you some slack, even if the vagina word was there, that'd still not back up your claim about a direct comparison, all it said is the "act of putting the monk's organ there" would result in much graver consequences than putting it inside a cobra's mouth or a charcoal pit. This is as clear as it can get. But I still wait for you to point out a single sentence to back up your claim of the Buddha directly compared the vagina to the cobra's mouth.
Re: Arahant with Bad Manners
Coemgenu wrote
What is the sensual pleasure to a child molester? To each his own. Metaphors would differ depending on what kind of monk wrote it, a monk yearning for men or women? Did Buddha yearn?
However, is not the Buddha's main teaching about getting rid of obsession? as Santa pointed out.
More the object is focussed upon, the further one gets away from Buddha's teaching.
Did not the sutta on Donkey meditation emphasize that the Fool meditates on the object? I think Coemgenu is influenced by abhidhamma and commentaries which focus on object meditation like dead bodies and pus oozing bodies, instead of thinking of these as metaphors for rotten thoughts and pus oozing thoughts. Coemegenu fails to make the connection that Buddha intended.
As for V. Brahmali's translation, once he objected to I. B. Horner's translation, saying she misunderstood the grammar. I related to Horner's translation, in that instance.
Who can determine who the best translator is. I have no doubt it is the Buddha, his awakening is enough of a translation for me, and his advice to break the bond to Samsara, the best advice, not some monk's comparisons regarding worldly human body parts.
Be well
Looks like someone is obsessing over a penis? Just a mere organ in a human male subject to decay and rot. likewise the female counterpart. Why not contemplate on the purpose of the teaching? to get rid of sensual pleasures, to get rid of Papanca?The second time it appears in the translation from Ven Brahmali it is shortened to "...to enter a woman," but I do believe that the full Pali phrase is "...than (for your penis) to enter a woman." That is debateable, perhaps I'm wrong whether or not "for your penis" belongs in the second unit of repeated words, either way it doesn't matter.
What is the sensual pleasure to a child molester? To each his own. Metaphors would differ depending on what kind of monk wrote it, a monk yearning for men or women? Did Buddha yearn?
However, is not the Buddha's main teaching about getting rid of obsession? as Santa pointed out.
More the object is focussed upon, the further one gets away from Buddha's teaching.
Did not the sutta on Donkey meditation emphasize that the Fool meditates on the object? I think Coemgenu is influenced by abhidhamma and commentaries which focus on object meditation like dead bodies and pus oozing bodies, instead of thinking of these as metaphors for rotten thoughts and pus oozing thoughts. Coemegenu fails to make the connection that Buddha intended.
As for V. Brahmali's translation, once he objected to I. B. Horner's translation, saying she misunderstood the grammar. I related to Horner's translation, in that instance.
Who can determine who the best translator is. I have no doubt it is the Buddha, his awakening is enough of a translation for me, and his advice to break the bond to Samsara, the best advice, not some monk's comparisons regarding worldly human body parts.
Be well
Re: Arahant with Bad Manners
Rather you have a pre-existing idea and then make the texts fit that view, going through extraordinary mental gymnastics to do so whilst also making a fool of yourself in the process.santa100 wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 7:01 pmNot me, it's you who already have a set particular wrong view of what the Buddha was like. I simply correct it for you.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 6:58 pmHe already has. The problem is that you refuse to accept it. You refusing to accept conclusions that clash with your particular view of what the Buddha was like is a common theme in your posting.santa100 wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 6:55 pm And here I'll cut you some slack, even if the vagina word was there, that'd still not back up your claim about a direct comparison, all it said is the "act of putting the monk's organ there" would result in much graver consequences than putting it inside a cobra's mouth or a charcoal pit. This is as clear as it can get. But I still wait for you to point out a single sentence to back up your claim of the Buddha directly compared the vagina to the cobra's mouth.
Now waiting for the “No, you are” retort
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Arahant with Bad Manners
This is very rough. My Pali is not exemplary. If there are mistakes in this, please correct it. It is very broken, because I don't want to proclaim that the "-assa" as dative or genitive per se. I think it's "to the snake" and "to the woman," datives, but I might be wrong. My Pali is quite less than exemplary. Also, the declension of the participle of "pakkhitta" is very complicated to me.
1)
āsivisassa ghoravisassa
a venomous snake
mukhe
in the mouth
aṅgajātaṁ pakkhittaṁ
the genitals put down into
2)
mātugāmassa
a woman
aṅgajāte
in the genitals
aṅgajātaṁ pakkhittaṁ.
the genitals put down into
1)
āsivisassa ghoravisassa
a venomous snake
mukhe
in the mouth
aṅgajātaṁ pakkhittaṁ
the genitals put down into
2)
mātugāmassa
a woman
aṅgajāte
in the genitals
aṅgajātaṁ pakkhittaṁ.
the genitals put down into
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Mon May 23, 2022 7:38 pm, edited 4 times in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Re: Arahant with Bad Manners
Hey, I'm not the one who claimed that the Buddha still has likes and dislikes, or still use swear words in private. You are. So lets' be very clear about who is really the one with a pre-existing idea and bent the texts to fit their view, going thru extraordinary mental gymnstaics to do so while also making a fool of himself in the process, OK?Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 7:09 pmRather you have a pre-existing idea and then make the texts fit that view, going through extraordinary mental gymnastics to do so whilst also making a fool of yourself in the process.
Now waiting for the “No, you are” retort
Re: Arahant with Bad Manners
Please cease these ad homs and this irrelevant chatter. I am not influenced by Abhidhamma in analysing this grammar.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Re: Arahant with Bad Manners
Those are conclusions drawn from the texts. Your “arguments” to the contrary were simply more of the same that we see here.santa100 wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 7:12 pmHey, I'm not the one who claimed that the Buddha still has likes and dislikes, or still use swear words in private. You are. So lets' be very clear about who is really the one with a pre-existing idea and bent the texts to fit their view, going thru extraordinary mental gymnstaics to do so while also making a fool of himself in the process, OK?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Arahant with Bad Manners
I think Venerable Buddhaghosa had far better critical thinking skills than many of the posters here with their ridiculous views based on extremely piss-poor arguments.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Arahant with Bad Manners
No, there're simply no texts that you've provided that clearly backed up your false claims about the Buddha. And throughout the many exchanges between you and me, I have consistently asked for a single explicit message, which you have consistently failed to provide. And quite frankly, all your posts really just smell the same, the odor of putting words into the Buddha's mouth.
Re: Arahant with Bad Manners
ceisiwr replied to Santa
Can you bring me an example from Samyukta agama? Or were these the texts written later by monks under the influence of Vibajjavadin abhidhamma.
They wrote suttas like MN 10/DN 22 and MN 111. Those and related suttas do not count. Those who did not understand Buddha's awakening wrote that Buddha again and again had to enter first or second jhana even after the awakening.
This clearly tells me, they could not figure out Buddha's awakening.
Be well
The texts Were these the earliest texts?Those are conclusions drawn from the texts.
Can you bring me an example from Samyukta agama? Or were these the texts written later by monks under the influence of Vibajjavadin abhidhamma.
They wrote suttas like MN 10/DN 22 and MN 111. Those and related suttas do not count. Those who did not understand Buddha's awakening wrote that Buddha again and again had to enter first or second jhana even after the awakening.
This clearly tells me, they could not figure out Buddha's awakening.
Be well
Re: Arahant with Bad Manners
When people do provide the passages, you simply claim they haven’t done so. It’s the kind of moronic arguments flat earthers and anti-vaxxer twerps use. Simply repeating that your opponent has “consistently failed” to do something when they clearly have done it is a cheap way for someone to try to look better than their interlocutor. I say try, because intelligent folks see straight through it.santa100 wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 7:19 pmNo, there're simply no texts that you've provided that clearly backed up your false claims about the Buddha. And throughout the many exchanges between you and me, I have consistently asked for a single explicit message, which you have consistently failed to provide. And quite frankly, all your posts really just smell the same, the odor of putting words into the Buddha's mouth.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Arahant with Bad Manners
I’ve brought numerous passages to show that rupa includes the physical. You have also been shown sutras which discuss the formless. Despite being shown them, repeatedly over and over again, you still claim they don’t exist or haven’t been shown. You can drag a horse kicking to water, but if it refuses to drink there isn’t much you can do.Pulsar wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 7:24 pm ceisiwr replied to SantaThe texts Were these the earliest texts?Those are conclusions drawn from the texts.
Can you bring me an example from Samyukta agama? Or were these the texts written later by monks under the influence of Vibajjavadin abhidhamma.
They wrote suttas like MN 10/DN 22 and MN 111. Those and related suttas do not count. Those who did not understand Buddha's awakening wrote that Buddha again and again had to enter first or second jhana even after the awakening.
This clearly tells me, they could not figure out Buddha's awakening.
Be well
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”