Arahant with Bad Manners

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Akashad
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Arahant with Bad Manners

Post by Akashad »

Hi,

Can anyone give me the sutta about an arahant who,I forgot the story,but I think he was rude to someone and someone said it's because of his old habits..

I'm not sure if this is a story from the sutta.

I am asking because I recently heard a podcast about a person who was skilled in the Jhanas but when explaining their ex partner used choiceful words which I thought was so bizzare.Who would swear on a buddhist podcast..?

Thanks.
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SDC
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Re: Arahant with Bad Manners

Post by SDC »

Ven. Dhammanando helped me with this one a few months back.

Ud 3.6
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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tharpa
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Re: Arahant with Bad Manners

Post by tharpa »

Going to the trouble of finding the exact sutta but not providing the link could be an example of rude behavior. ;)

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Also, attaining jhanas is below the level of the fruitions, so I'm not sure that rudeness would be an impediment to attaining them, or attaining them would tend to cure rudeness.

One of the teachers in my first Buddhist group, though, did say that there seems to be a gentling that comes out of silent sitting meditation. And I would generally agree.
Last edited by tharpa on Sat May 21, 2022 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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mikenz66
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Re: Arahant with Bad Manners

Post by mikenz66 »

Here are a couple of other translations: https://suttacentral.net/ud3.6

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santa100
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Re: Arahant with Bad Manners

Post by santa100 »

Akashad wrote:I am asking because I recently heard a podcast about a person who was skilled in the Jhanas but when explaining their ex partner used choiceful words which I thought was so bizzare
It's important to note that the case of Ven. Pilindavaccha, his word choice was done out of old habit energy, not ill intent. But at least he was certified by the Buddha in AN 1.215. For those who hasn't reached any concrete noble milstone and still displaying questionable conduct, it's safe to conclude that their behavior was done out of sheer defilements.
AN 1.215 wrote:Bhikkhus, the foremost of my bhikkhu disciples among those pleasing and agreeable to the deities is Piḷindavaccha.
And more info about Ven. Pilinda Vaccha here
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Re: Arahant with Bad Manners

Post by Jack19990101 »

Practice to a point, one would lose motivation in manipulation of behavioral sphere.

Once mind is pure, behavioral sphere is of no concern, like we don't wash trash.

Although, good manner is an attractive quality to be a teacher, not an qualifier for enlightenment.
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Akashad
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Re: Arahant with Bad Manners

Post by Akashad »

tharpa wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 12:40 am Going to the trouble of finding the exact sutta but not providing the link could be an example of rude behavior. ;)

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Also, attaining jhanas is below the level of the fruitions, so I'm not sure that rudeness would be an impediment to attaining them, or attaining them would tend to cure rudeness.

One of the teachers in my first Buddhist group, though, did say that there seems to be a gentling that comes out of silent sitting meditation. And I would generally agree.
My purpose is not to thrash talk or name and shame an individual which is why I did not post the podcast I was just curious why a jhana practitioners would be swearing on a buddhist podcast of all places.Ofcourse jhana is very mundane but a Buddhist podcast?@^#*@
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Re: Arahant with Bad Manners

Post by Bundokji »

santa100 wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:31 am
Akashad wrote:I am asking because I recently heard a podcast about a person who was skilled in the Jhanas but when explaining their ex partner used choiceful words which I thought was so bizzare
It's important to note that the case of Ven. Pilindavaccha, his word choice was done out of old habit energy, not ill intent. But at least he was certified by the Buddha in AN 1.215. For those who hasn't reached any concrete noble milstone and still displaying questionable conduct, it's safe to conclude that their behavior was done out of sheer defilements.
AN 1.215 wrote:Bhikkhus, the foremost of my bhikkhu disciples among those pleasing and agreeable to the deities is Piḷindavaccha.
And more info about Ven. Pilinda Vaccha here
If old habit energy would explain questionable conduct by a noble person, then how come it is impossible for noble people to break the precepts?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Arahant with Bad Manners

Post by robertk »

Bundokji wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 8:42 am
santa100 wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:31 am
Akashad wrote:I am asking because I recently heard a podcast about a person who was skilled in the Jhanas but when explaining their ex partner used choiceful words which I thought was so bizzare
It's important to note that the case of Ven. Pilindavaccha, his word choice was done out of old habit energy, not ill intent. But at least he was certified by the Buddha in AN 1.215. For those who hasn't reached any concrete noble milstone and still displaying questionable conduct, it's safe to conclude that their behavior was done out of sheer defilements.
AN 1.215 wrote:Bhikkhus, the foremost of my bhikkhu disciples among those pleasing and agreeable to the deities is Piḷindavaccha.
And more info about Ven. Pilinda Vaccha here
If old habit energy would explain questionable conduct by a noble person, then how come it is impossible for noble people to break the precepts?
He didn't break any precepts.
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Re: Arahant with Bad Manners

Post by Bundokji »

robertk wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 9:02 am He didn't break any precepts.
I did not say he did.

The point i am raising is that breaking the precepts has to be through mental, physical or verbal actions, hence actions with kammic consequences. Having this criteria, that Ariyas do not break the precepts under any circumstances, provides a worldly/objective criteria to how wisdom manifest itself in action. Once we begin to use the "old energy habit" argument, the notion that its impossible for an Ariya to break the precepts becomes questionable if you understand what i mean. They could lie or kill due to their old habits/kamma.

There are stories where the noble ones were on the receiving end of kammic retribution such as in the case of Ven. Moggallāna. While the venerable could not avoid the Vipāka of an old action, he appeared to be totally in control of his own actions. The story of Ven. Pilindavaccha indicates otherwise.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Arahant with Bad Manners

Post by Ceisiwr »

Akashad wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 5:30 am My purpose is not to thrash talk or name and shame an individual which is why I did not post the podcast I was just curious why a jhana practitioners would be swearing on a buddhist podcast of all places.Ofcourse jhana is very mundane but a Buddhist podcast?@^#*@
The Buddha swore. I believe there are passages where he says shit, piss and f***.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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robertk
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Re: Arahant with Bad Manners

Post by robertk »

Bundokji wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 9:22 am
robertk wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 9:02 am He didn't break any precepts.
I did not say he did.

The point i am raising is that breaking the precepts has to be through mental, physical or verbal actions, hence actions with kammic consequences. Having this criteria, that Ariyas do not break the precepts under any circumstances, provides a worldly/objective criteria to how wisdom manifest itself in action. Once we begin to use the "old energy habit" argument, the notion that its impossible for an Ariya to break the precepts becomes questionable if you understand what i mean. They could lie or kill due to their old habits/kamma.

There are stories where the noble ones were on the receiving end of kammic retribution such as in the case of Ven. Moggallāna. While the venerable could not avoid the Vipāka of an old action, he appeared to be totally in control of his own actions. The story of Ven. Pilindavaccha indicates otherwise.
Only the Buddha has eradicated all habit.
For this monk it can be compared with a father addressing his much loved son as a "cheeky boy" or some such - no ill will involved.
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Re: Arahant with Bad Manners

Post by Sam Vara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 9:57 am
Akashad wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 5:30 am My purpose is not to thrash talk or name and shame an individual which is why I did not post the podcast I was just curious why a jhana practitioners would be swearing on a buddhist podcast of all places.Ofcourse jhana is very mundane but a Buddhist podcast?@^#*@
The Buddha swore. I believe there are passages where he says shit, piss and f***.
Yes, that raises an interesting point about intention, and what constitutes harsh speech. Those words can be used in English to deliberately offend, but they can also be completely neutral nouns or verbs. I wonder whether there are two or more Pali terms for these, one like "piss" and the other like "urine".

And whether there was even a concept of "swearing" in the Buddha's time. Our conception is bound up with theism, of course.
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Re: Arahant with Bad Manners

Post by tharpa »

Bundokji wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 8:42 am If old habit energy would explain questionable conduct by a noble person, then how come it is impossible for noble people to break the precepts?
Because breaking any of the five precepts (especially the first four) requires ignorance. You have to value your own well-being and happiness over others', and to a great extent. Not so much on things that are mere matters of convention.

It is possible for an arahant monk to break lesser precepts. Most of the precepts in the Vinaya are just matters of convention. For most of them, the Buddha didn't establish a precept against action X until someone complained about a monk who performed X.
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Re: Arahant with Bad Manners

Post by Joe.c »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 9:57 am The Buddha swore. I believe there are passages where he says shit, piss and f***.
Please provide the sutta / passages. Don’t misrepresent something that is not there.
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