Five Hindrances - Buddha

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Ontheway
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by Ontheway »

Joe.c wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 9:55 pm
NAD wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 9:03 pm Was Buddha always in Jhana? If not then he would have had the five hindrances present, how can this be reconciled?
Good question. Jhana also means pure mind, no hindrances = jhana.

So, Buddha and arahant always in jhana. Heck even a non returner is always in jhana. At least 1st jhana.
Wrong. This is close to Mahayana.
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sukkadhammasamāhitā;
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Sam Vara
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

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Moderator note: please try to keep this civil. There is no need for ad hominem comments. Offending posts have been removed, so please don't waste your time.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by Ceisiwr »

Joe.c wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 10:06 pm
Problem is baby can’t even aware about anything yet. How can he check that he doesn’t have any hindrances or check the jhana factors are present in him?

Only one who has wisdom can do the checking.
A baby does have awareness. Point being simply being without the hindrances doesn't mean someone is then in Jhāna. Someone can be without them and not be in Jhāna, as the Buddha and Arahants were.
Why not? a breathing has stopped, but one can still walk, eat, move, sit, etc. Clearly you don’t understand yet. The mind is so powerful to still all activities.

Of course not at hot place. When one meditate walking or sit, they will find a shaded place to meditate.
If you stop breathing then you will be quite dead. Rather than the breath stopping, it makes more sense to say it's so subtle it can't be detected. This is not the kind of breathing you have whilst walking up and down hills, or through forests, or even villages.
1st jhana is close to kama loka. One will feel the physical pain when one is close to kama loka. What Buddha will do typically just lay down and mindful and move the mind into higher jhana.

When you are at higher jhana, all pain will be gone or move to background.
On an absorbed view of Jhāna there can be no physical pain whilst in the attainment, since the 5 senses have been let go of (temporally). On a non-absorbed view of Jhāna there can be no physical pain whilst in the attainment, as the body is filled with bliss. Since two feelings cannot be experienced at the same time according to the Dhamma, there is no bodily pain. On either view, there is no physical pain whilst in Jhāna.

"And where does that faculty of pain that’s arisen cease without anything left over? It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. That’s where the faculty of pain that’s arisen ceases without anything left over. They’re called a mendicant who understands the cessation of the faculty of pain, and who applies their mind to that end." - SN 48.40

So, if the Buddha was in Jhāna 24/7 he would never experience any type of pain. However he did say he experienced pain, and the texts make it clear that Buddhas and Arahants do experience pain. Therefore, the Buddha was not always in Jhāna and your claim to the contrary is false.
Sorry to tell, look like you will never understand.
Rather, at least on this matter, you are mistaken. A bit more humility from you would be a good thing too.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Joe.c
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by Joe.c »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 9:03 pm ...
Well, I guess I said Good luck to you. Maybe in way future, you will understand. Not now unfortunately.

Note: Don't stuck with current science. Science nowadays is still way behind What Buddha understood.

Remember this
A Being can stop breathing but still alive.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by Ceisiwr »

Joe.c wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 9:22 pm
Well, I guess I said Good luck to you. Maybe in way future, you will understand. Not now unfortunately.

Note: Don't stuck with current science. Science nowadays is still way behind What Buddha understood.

Remember this "A Being can stop breathing but still alive."
You don't need science to know that animals die when they can no longer breathe, quite quickly. Faster than dying of thirst, or hunger.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Joe.c
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

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Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 9:34 pm You don't need science to know that animals die when they can no longer breathe, quite quickly. Faster than dying of thirst, or hunger.
I guess this is what Buddha said a hindrance, fear of death. This hindrance also needs to be passed to enter and maintain samma samadhi, jhana.

This remind me what Buddha said after his awakening on SN 6.1:
“I’ve struggled hard to realize this,
enough with trying to explain it!
This dhamma is not easily understood
by those attach in desire and dislike.

Those has passion on desire can’t see
what’s subtle, going against the stream,
deep, hard to see, and very fine,
for they’re covered in a mass of darkness.”
Hm... now to enter the stream is not easy I guess. Because one needs a fingersnap of samma samadhi to enter it.

I guess in future I'll stuck with samma ditthi and morality. I will avoid to explain the samadhi part. :-)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by Ceisiwr »

Joe.c wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 9:56 pm

I guess this is what Buddha said a hindrance, fear of death. This hindrance also needs to be passed to enter and maintain samma samadhi, jhana.
I think fear of death would come up because of the hindrance of sense desire. In my experience the more common fear is the fear of letting go. Fear of the self temporarily falling away, which occurs in Jhāna.
Hm... now to enter the stream is not easy I guess. Because one needs a fingersnap of samma samadhi to enter it.
Yes, although there is still a debate as to if the samādhi required for stream-entry is Jhāna or something weaker.
I guess in future I'll stuck with samma ditthi and morality. I will avoid to explain the samadhi part. :-)
You don't have to stop discussing it, although talk about virtue and Right View is of course very good. You were mistaken though in believing that the Buddha was in Jhāna 24/7, but there isn't anything wrong in that. We all make mistakes. It's part of figuring out what the Dhamma is all about.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by santa100 »

Per the Jhana's definition, it depends on the context. In the strict sense, of Jhanas being defined as either the 4 Rupa-jhanas or the 4 ARupa-jhanas, it'd be a bit of a stretch to say the Buddha is in it 24/7, cuz there're various other functions he had to attend to: teaching His students, interacting with state leaders, doing personal hygiene, etc... But from its broader sense, jhana being some momentary but mindful directing of the mind on any object, then it's legit to say the Buddha was in it 24/7. Afterall, Samma-Sati is kinda His thing, something done naturally and without effort, unlike us puthujjhanas.
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by Joe.c »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 10:03 pm You don't have to stop discussing it, although talk about virtue and Right View is of course very good. You were mistaken though in believing that the Buddha was in Jhāna 24/7, but there isn't anything wrong in that. We all make mistakes. It's part of figuring out what the Dhamma is all about.
er... Sorry I think you are mistaken, I didn't admit any mistake. I just said samadhi part is difficult to understand for regular people.

So, My own belief still hold. :-)

The only thing is to convince others, it is difficult. Because others don't have direct insight/experience into it yet.

The problem is to enter the stream you need the whole understanding of 8 factors. Dilemma indeed. No wonder Buddha and other arahant wants to remain passive.
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May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

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Joe.c wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 10:32 pm
er... Sorry I think you are mistaken, I didn't admit any mistake. I just said samadhi part is difficult to understand for regular people.

So, My own belief still hold. :-)

The only thing is to convince others, it is difficult. Because others don't have direct insight/experience into it yet.

The problem is to enter the stream you need the whole understanding of 8 factors. Dilemma indeed. No wonder Buddha and other arahant wants to remain passive.
I didn’t say you admitted to being mistaken. I said you are mistaken.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Joe.c
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by Joe.c »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 11:01 pm I didn’t say you admitted to being mistaken. I said you are mistaken.
Just final reply.

Let me put this quote from Citta the householder on SN 41.8
... Which is better—knowledge or faith?”
“Knowledge is definitely better than faith, householder.”

“Well sir, whenever I want, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful behaviors, I enter and remain in the first jhana, while questioning and answering is present, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion .
When one has switched the sanna in their mind from kama-sanna to rupa-sanna, their mind will remain in samadhi always all the time. There is no need to keep checking, it is automatic.

But as i said, it is difficult to understand from regular person view. Even Nigantha couldn't understand it.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by Ceisiwr »

Joe.c wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 12:36 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 11:01 pm I didn’t say you admitted to being mistaken. I said you are mistaken.
Just final reply.

Let me put this quote from Citta the householder on SN 41.8
... Which is better—knowledge or faith?”
“Knowledge is definitely better than faith, householder.”

“Well sir, whenever I want, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful behaviors, I enter and remain in the first jhana, while questioning and answering is present, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion .
When one has switched the sanna in their mind from kama-sanna to rupa-sanna, their mind will remain in samadhi always all the time. There is no need to keep checking, it is automatic.

But as i said, it is difficult to understand from regular person view. Even Nigantha couldn't understand it.
The quote you supplied undermines your claim that the there is constant Jhana. It shows Jhana is entered into when one wants, not that it’s always there.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Joe.c
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by Joe.c »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 6:36 am The quote you supplied undermines your claim that the there is constant Jhana. It shows Jhana is entered into when one wants, not that it’s always there.
Mind is dynamic not static. Life is also dynamic, not static. One can move around jhana easily once you have mastered them. Just look at your own untrained mind, it will jump so fast, you don’t even remember what happen 10 second before or 1 hr before or 1 day before etc.

In jhana, doesn’t mean you stay only at 1st jhana all the time. When you don’t talk, you move up higher. Usually a noble disciple will stay at least at 3rd jhana or higher depending on their skill. The mind will rest at the highest jhana when you are not active in any activities. Try to look up the third jhana description.
Furthermore, with the fading away of rapture, a mendicant enters and remains in the third jhana, where they meditate with equanimity, mindful and aware, personally experiencing the bliss of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous and mindful, one dwells in bliss.’ They drench, steep, fill, and spread their body with bliss free of rapture. There’s no part of the body that’s not spread with bliss free of rapture.
If you understand N8FP, you start from right view, then proceed to next step samma sankappa, etc. One step lead to another and another etc.

For purification of mind, it start from samma vayama, then samma sati, then samma samadhi. So from anapanasati, then the wisdom is satipatthana, then lead to samadhi, then lead to fulfillment of satta bojjhaṅgā (awakening factors).

If you do your anapanasati correctly, it will lead you to 3rd jhana or higher by then.

Samma samadhi can’t stand alone. One needs to understand the complete path N8FP, otherwise one will never understand what samma samadhi is. So if someone try to reach samma samadhi without right view and other factors, it is not possible.

Anyway good luck. I think i will stay passive for now, not many people are ready for it yet.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by confusedlayman »

NAD wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 9:03 pm Was Buddha always in Jhana? If not then he would have had the five hindrances present, how can this be reconciled?
While he is not in jhana ... he is not having desire as no ignorance

So aggregates just function thats it.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Five Hindrances - Buddha

Post by Ceisiwr »

Joe.c wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 2:01 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 6:36 am The quote you supplied undermines your claim that the there is constant Jhana. It shows Jhana is entered into when one wants, not that it’s always there.
Mind is dynamic not static. Life is also dynamic, not static. One can move around jhana easily once you have mastered them. Just look at your own untrained mind, it will jump so fast, you don’t even remember what happen 10 second before or 1 hr before or 1 day before etc.

In jhana, doesn’t mean you stay only at 1st jhana all the time. When you don’t talk, you move up higher. Usually a noble disciple will stay at least at 3rd jhana or higher depending on their skill. The mind will rest at the highest jhana when you are not active in any activities. Try to look up the third jhana description.
Furthermore, with the fading away of rapture, a mendicant enters and remains in the third jhana, where they meditate with equanimity, mindful and aware, personally experiencing the bliss of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous and mindful, one dwells in bliss.’ They drench, steep, fill, and spread their body with bliss free of rapture. There’s no part of the body that’s not spread with bliss free of rapture.
If you understand N8FP, you start from right view, then proceed to next step samma sankappa, etc. One step lead to another and another etc.

For purification of mind, it start from samma vayama, then samma sati, then samma samadhi. So from anapanasati, then the wisdom is satipatthana, then lead to samadhi, then lead to fulfillment of satta bojjhaṅgā (awakening factors).

If you do your anapanasati correctly, it will lead you to 3rd jhana or higher by then.

Samma samadhi can’t stand alone. One needs to understand the complete path N8FP, otherwise one will never understand what samma samadhi is. So if someone try to reach samma samadhi without right view and other factors, it is not possible.

Anyway good luck. I think i will stay passive for now, not many people are ready for it yet.
I see little relevance here regarding the fact that the earliest texts say the Buddha and Arahants were not in Jhāna 24/7. You may find Mahāyāna texts which claim the Buddha was in samādhi 24/7, but I suspect they aren't using the word samādhi in terms of the 4 Jhānas.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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