Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Pulsar
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Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by Pulsar »

Vitakka Vicara! does it even matter how V. Sujato translated these?
  • Did Buddha teach in Pali?
Some say he used a language called Magadha. Buddha apparently used many languages. He was not into linguistics. He was mainly into communicating how one can do away with Samsara/suffering.
  • How often do Vitakka and Vicara appear in the agama suttas of the Mulasarvastivadins?
since that is the criterion many scholars appear to use as the indicator of earliness of the dispensation, including Yinshun.
Before MN 10/DN 22 appeared on the scene and influenced the writing of later suttas, (about 200 years after the Buddha's passing away) how did Buddhist aspirants meditate? I am convinced it was according to SN 47.42, sutta on Origination. https://suttacentral.net/sn47.42/en/bodhi
  • Eight-fold path includes virtuous conduct, wisdom and meditation.
Can there be a Buddhist Noble path without such meditation? How does one gain Buddhist wisdom without Buddhist meditation? I do not consider the methods that prevailed Before the Buddha are the teachings of the Buddha.
Happy Day! :candle:
thomaslaw
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by thomaslaw »

This is the corresponding Chinese version, SA 609:

如是我聞:

一時,佛住舍衛國祇樹給孤獨園。

爾時,世尊告諸比丘:「我今當說四念處集、四念處沒。諦聽,善思。何等為四念處集、四念處沒?食集則身集、食滅則身沒。如是隨身集觀住,隨身滅觀住,隨身集滅觀住,則無所依住,於諸世間永無所取。

「如是觸集則受集,觸滅則受沒。如是隨集法觀受住,隨滅法觀受住,隨集滅法觀受住,則無所依住,於諸世間都無所取。

「名色集則心集,名色滅則心沒。隨集法觀心住,隨滅法觀心住,隨集滅法觀心住,則無所依住,於諸世間則無所取。

「憶念集則法集,憶念滅則法沒。隨集法觀法住,隨滅法觀法住,隨集滅法觀法住,則無所依住,於諸世間則無所取。是名四念處集、四念處沒。」

佛說此經已,諸比丘聞佛所說,歡喜奉行。

Cf. also Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, Choong MK, pp. 202-204, on Ahara "Nutriment".
Pulsar
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by Pulsar »

thomaslaw wrote
Cf. also Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, Choong MK, pp. 202-204, on Ahara
  • "Nutriment".
Nutriment is the key to understanding of the Four Foundations of Mindfulness,
  • how the body originates?
Many fail to understand the first foundation as found in the earliest Buddhism.
With time folks got brain washed by later written suttas.
MN 10/DN 22, have some true teachings of the Buddha conjoined with many fake teachings of later Abhidhamma (Piltdown).
It is impossible to convince the believers in MN 10 that kaya/rupa/form/color (the last is how Chinese describe first foundation). Or it is how the first aggregate is translated in Chinese, as color.
Chinese were on to something??
When the first foundation of Mindfulnessis correctly understood, folks will begin to understand the content of SN 47.42.
MN10/DN22 is a combination of truth and lies.
Later compilers believed in this joint teaching of truth and lies. No one can blame them. Abhidhamma elders canonized these, since they understood rupa of Nama-rupa of DO and rupa aggregate to be physical entities.
Buddha's teaching was about dhammas, or our human experience. Human experience is like foam, like a bubble, a mirage, a banana tree, a magic trick. So says Phena Sutta.
  • His central teaching was about laying down the burden of five aggregates
Bhara sutta
  • But later sutta writers implied that Arahants still held on to feelings, MN 140, even though in early suttas Buddha solidly taught, that Arahants are free of aggregates
Result is the Pali canon. As it exists today it is a mix of early buddhism, and Vibajjavadin buddhism (those who believed that Buddha taught Abhidhamma).
A reader might infer that Buddha taught an inferior truth, which had to be polished further by Abhidhamma.
Why discuss Abhidhamma? Perhaps Abhidhamma is the reason why people are reluctant to replace MN 10 with SN 47.42, or even bother to understand it?

Happy Day! :candle:
cdpatton
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by cdpatton »

Pulsar wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 4:31 pm It is impossible to convince the believers in MN 10 that kaya/rupa/form/color (the last is how Chinese describe first foundation). Or it is how the first aggregate is translated in Chinese, as color.
Chinese were on to something??
Color is only one meaning of 色. It's actually a very apt translation of Skt. rūpa, meaning "appearance, form, color." It can also mean a person's face, countenance, or looks (as in a woman's attractiveness to men) in ordinary Chinese idioms outside of Buddhist translations. So, it was a good choice for a translation of the rūpa. Of course, Buddhists extended its meaning to refer to the external objects that the eye sees, and it took on the meaning of material things.
Supposing is good, but finding out is better.
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mjaviem
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by mjaviem »

Pulsar wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 4:31 pm ... But later sutta writers implied that Arahants still held on to feelings, MN 140, even though in early suttas Buddha solidly taught, that Arahants are free of aggregates...
Good to know. I know of someone in this forum who implies this very thing, nickname starting with 'c' and ending with 'wr'...
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 9:30 pm
Pulsar wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 4:31 pm ... But later sutta writers implied that Arahants still held on to feelings, MN 140, even though in early suttas Buddha solidly taught, that Arahants are free of aggregates...
Good to know. I know of someone in this forum who implies this very thing, nickname starting with 'c' and ending with 'wr'...
I've never said that Arahants hold onto feelings. I see no reason to reject MN 140.
“When he does not cling, he is not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbāna. He understands thus: ‘Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being.’

"If he feels a pleasant feeling, he understands: ‘It is impermanent; there is no holding to it; there is no delight in it.’ If he feels a painful feeling, he understands: ‘It is impermanent; there is no holding to it; there is no delight in it.’ If he feels a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he understands: ‘It is impermanent; there is no holding to it; there is no delight in it.’

“If he feels a pleasant feeling, he feels it detached; if he feels a painful feeling, he feels it detached; if he feels a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he feels it detached. When he feels a feeling terminating with the body, he understands: ‘I feel a feeling terminating with the body.’ When he feels a feeling terminating with life, he understands: ‘I feel a feeling terminating with life.’ He understands: ‘On the dissolution of the body, with the ending of life, all that is felt, not being delighted in, will become cool right here.’ Bhikkhu, just as an oil-lamp burns in dependence on oil and a wick, and when the oil and wick are used up, if it does not get any more fuel, it is extinguished from lack of fuel; so too when he feels a feeling terminating with the body…a feeling terminating with life, he understands: ‘I feel a feeling terminating with life.’ He understands: ‘On the dissolution of the body, with the ending of life, all that is felt, not being delighted in, will become cool right here.’

“Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this wisdom possesses the supreme foundation of wisdom. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble wisdom, namely, the knowledge of the destruction of all suffering."
https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/bodhi ... ight=false

Ceisiwr also isn't my nickname. It's a username. It's actually Welsh for "seeker".
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by Pulsar »

cdpatton wrote
Color is only one meaning of 色. It's actually a very apt translation of Skt. rūpa, meaning "appearance, form, color." It can also mean a person's face, countenance, or looks (as in a woman's attractiveness to men) in ordinary Chinese idioms outside of Buddhist translations. So, it was a good choice for a translation of the rūpa. Of course, Buddhists extended its meaning to refer to the external objects that the eye sees, and it took on the meaning of material things.
Thanks, your sensible comment is very helpful.
SN 22.94 (Sa 37 and SA 38) writes
[list]Form bhikkhus is a world phenomenon
in the world to which to which Tathagata has awakened and broken through [/list]Minds brainwashed by abhidhamma? Their Buddha is still stuck on the Uapanisad literature where form eternally remains stuck on materiality.
It is hard to wake up the fast asleep?
Problem is not in the material things of the world, problem is within our self created world. Self created world is full of thoughts. Thoughts can never be rocks and snakes and people. Rupa of a thing seen in dependent origination is only a mind created image.

Dhammapada begins with
Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states.
Mind is chief: mind made are they ....
Regards :candle:
Pulsar
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by Pulsar »

mjaviem wrote
Good to know. I know of someone in this forum who implies this very thing, nickname starting with 'c' and ending with 'wr'...
We cannot correct the world. As long as you understand that Arahants have laid down the burden, meaning laid down the burden of rupa, vedana, sanna, sankahra, and vinnana. Bhara sutta and many other early Pali suttas of SN were written by monks uninfluenced by abhidhamma. MN 140 was clearly written by a monk influenced by abhidhamma, otherwise why would he write "If an Arahant feels ...." That is an oxymoron...
Arahants have lost the feeling generating mechanism which is identification due to clinging.
Arahant is free of identifications. So how can feelings arise? whose feelings are they?
This is one of the hardest things for puthujjana to understand, since he is always in the mode of "identification"

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mjaviem
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by mjaviem »

Pulsar wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 12:19 am ... So how can feelings arise?...
SN 36.23 Bodhi wrote:... With the arising of contact there is the arising of feeling. Craving is the way leading to the origination of feeling...
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Pulsar
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by Pulsar »

mjaviem wrote...
Does contact arise in the Arahant?
You are getting somewhere. You are the true seeker, changing a name
will not make you a seeker while you are groping in the darkness of Abhidhamma. Your question will lead us into the truth of the
  • first establishment of mindfulness
as introduced by the OP SN 47.42, and will show the forum, that MN 10/DN 22 make something else the first establishment of mindfulness, influenced by Abhidhamma.
Hence the reason for its place in the
  • Piltdown basket
or in the category of "Elegant Fakes"
My dear mjaviem: Can contact arise in the Arahant? contact in Dependent Origination taught by Buddha arises when a contact is made with rupa that arises in the mind.
In Arahant's domain (he has gone beyond the sense bases) such rupas do not arise due to craving.
  • Rupas arise in minds that crave for those
Rocks and snakes or bodies of ordinary people out there are not what Buddha meant by Rupa, although brahmins of the day presented it so.
  • To Buddha rupa was what was retrieved due to mental proliferation, or by obsessing over something one has seen, heard, senses or cognized.
Arahant is full of emptiness, full of compassion, is free of forms that arise due to craving.
  • Hence formless
Pl ask me if you need further clarification. You are willing to lend an ear. I am willing to bring you the truth of Buddha, not the elegant fakes of Abhidhamma. What VBB translates in SN 36.23
... With the arising of contact there is the arising of feeling. Craving is the way leading to the origination of feeling...
Read it carefully. "with the arising of contact" it does not say "In the Arahant contact arises?" Does it?. However it says
"craving is the way leading to the Origination of Feeling"
Does the Arahant crave, based on your understanding?
Sincerely :candle:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pulsar wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 12:19 am
Arahant is free of identifications. So how can feelings arise? whose feelings are they?
Because there is still a body, mind and contacts.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Pulsar
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by Pulsar »

Dear Ceisiwr: You say that the Arahant has a body, you wrote
this Because there is still a body, mind and contacts.
because you are brainwashed by the teachings of Abhidhamma.
Can you pl define identification for me? When Buddha used
  • the word body in relation to Dependent origination
(as in SN 47.42)
  • he meant the forms arising in the mind, due to the feeding of consciousness, mainly
  • Can you tell me what the body feeds on?
Let us begin at the very beginning.
This is the first establishment of mindfulness according to the sutta on origination SN 47.42, which OP insists should replace MN 10.
According to MN 10/DN 22 and many Pali suttas that were written by Vibajjavadins and canonised by Vibajjavadin elders (Even though these were not Buddha's teachings) body is the physical body.
So yes, Arahant has a physical body, but that is not the body/rupa that Buddha refers to, as worthy of meditation as in (SN 47.42). But to folks like you whose faith is in Abhidhamma, you are right. To folks like me whose faith is in Buddha's awakening,
  • rupa is a world phenomenon
that the Arahant has got rid of. With love and hugs :candle:
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by Coëmgenu »

Pulsar wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 2:21 pmWhen Buddha used [...] the word body in relation to Dependent origination [...] (as in SN 47.42) [...] he meant the forms arising in the mind, due to the feeding of consciousness, mainly
This is a completely indefensible position. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that when the Buddha specifies the bodies of persons, he is merely talking about "form arising in the mind due to the feeding of consciousness." Consciousness does not feed the body, and much less does it feed the mind. It is the mind. It is neither the food of the body nor is it the food of the mind.

You can have a body without consciousness, such as the many bodies trapped in a vegetative state until death: brain-dead, but biologically alive.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by mjaviem »

Pulsar wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 11:08 am ...
My dear mjaviem: Can contact arise in the Arahant?...
Dear Pulsar. In my incomplete and imperfect understanding I think contact cannot possibly arise when the holy life has been lived. Craving is the source of the nutriment contact but we've learned Arahants have destroyed craving for good.
SN 12.11 Bodhi wrote:...
“Bhikkhus, there are these four kinds of nutriment for the maintenance of beings that have already come to be and for the assistance of those about to come to be. What four? The nutriment edible food, gross or subtle; second, contact; third, mental volition; fourth, consciousness. These are the four kinds of nutriment for the maintenance of beings that have already come to be and for the assistance of those about to come to be.

“Bhikkhus, these four kinds of nutriment have what as their source, what as their origin, from what are they born and produced? These four kinds of nutriment have craving as their source, craving as their origin; they are born and produced from craving.
...
And for us who are no Arahants this is how contact should be seen:
SN 12.63 Bodhi wrote:...
“And how, bhikkhus, should the nutriment contact be seen? Suppose there is a flayed cow. If she stands exposed to a wall, the creatures dwelling in the wall would nibble at her. If she stands exposed to a tree, the creatures dwelling in the tree would nibble at her. If she stands exposed to water, the creatures dwelling in the water would nibble at her. If she stands exposed to the open air, the creatures dwelling in the open air would nibble at her. Whatever that flayed cow stands exposed to, the creatures dwelling there would nibble at her.

“It is in such a way, bhikkhus, that I say the nutriment contact should be seen...
Pulsar wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 11:08 am ...
  • Rupas arise in minds that crave for those
Rocks and snakes or bodies of ordinary people out there are not what Buddha meant by Rupa, although brahmins of the day presented it so.
  • To Buddha rupa was what was retrieved due to mental proliferation, or by obsessing over something one has seen, heard, senses or cognized.
...
I think those who understand can see that it is only dukkha arising, standing, changing, and ceasing. I think that dependent origination explains how everything comes to be. Coming to be it's not about the features and signs of things. Those at peace can see things just as they are, can see just the features and signs without conceiving, without desire and lust, without craving. Nothing comes to be for them, there's no meaning, nothing signified, nothing standing, nothing implied. They reached cessation without remainder, no more "I" versus the world, complete peace.

This is what the wise have done about all things in the inferior realm:
AN 6.63 Nibbedhikasutta (Penetrative) wrote:...
"There are, bhikkhus, these five objects of sensual pleasure: forms cognizable by the eye that are wished for, desired, agreeable, pleasing, connected with sensual pleasure, tantalizing; sounds cognizable by the ear … odours cognizable by the nose … tastes cognizable by the tongue … tactile objects cognizable by the body that are wished for, desired, agreeable, pleasing, connected with sensual pleasure, tantalizing. However, these are not sensual pleasures; in the Noble One's discipline, these are called ‘objects of sensual pleasure.’ A person's sensual pleasure is lustful intention.

"They are not sensual pleasures, the pretty things in the world:
a person's sensual pleasure is lustful intention;
the pretty things remain just as they are in the world,
but the wise remove the desire for them.
...
Pulsar wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 11:08 am ...
Arahant is full of emptiness, full of compassion, is free of forms that arise due to craving.
  • Hence formless
...
"with the arising of contact" it does not say "In the Arahant contact arises?" Does it?. However it says
"craving is the way leading to the Origination of Feeling"
Does the Arahant crave, based on your understanding?
...
I would say empty of ill-will, free from everything. Even free from the formless because feelings have ceased for good. Contact and craving have ceased.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pulsar wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 2:21 pm Dear Ceisiwr: You say that the Arahant has a body, you wrote...because you are brainwashed by the teachings of Abhidhamma.
I'm not "brainwashed". I actually disagree with the Abhidhamma on many points. I don't need to be an Ābhidhammika to argue that Buddhas and Arahants still have bodies, minds, physical & mental contacts and feelings. The suttas and their parallels will do.
Can you pl define identification for me?
Simply put, an idea or notion due to clinging. A mental fabrication.
When Buddha used
the word body in relation to Dependent origination
(as in SN 47.42)
he meant the forms arising in the mind, due to the feeding of consciousness,
So far this is unsubstantiated.
Can you tell me what the body feeds on?
This morning I had a McDonalds breakfast. Later on today I ate some strawberries and grapes.

This is the first establishment of mindfulness according to the sutta on origination SN 47.42, which OP insists should replace MN 10.
The first foundation of mindfulness in that sutta is the physical body. The first foundation of mindfulness is always the physical body. What changes are which aspect of it are taken up for meditation.
According to MN 10/DN 22 and many Pali suttas that were written by Vibajjavadins and canonised by Vibajjavadin elders (Even though these were not Buddha's teachings) body is the physical body.
In the context of the Satipaṭṭhāna, that is what it is.
So yes, Arahant has a physical body, but that is not the body/rupa that Buddha refers to, as worthy of meditation as in (SN 47.42). But to folks like you whose faith is in Abhidhamma, you are right. To folks like me whose faith is in Buddha's awakening,
The Arahants body is the same body that we see in the Satipaṭṭhāna suttas.
rupa is a world phenomenon
Yes. The world agrees that physical form exists.
that the Arahant has got rid of. With love and hugs
They have cut off future form. Until they die, they still have to put up with their current form. They do so because it was the result of past intentional action, and so it has to run it's course. You can't just wish it away. Like a sun, or a flower, or a mountain it exists for a time until it ceases. The difference is that for you and me, a body will rise again. For an Arahant, it's all finally finished with at death. The merry-go-around ends for them.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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