Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by Coëmgenu »

Vivekananda wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 2:04 amQuite understandably, as it went against my understanding of DO.
This is because there is already a technical Buddhist term for "the appearances that appear via the mind." It is "rūpasaññā." Buddhist modernists regularly dramatically misunderstand the relationship between rūpa and rūpasaññā.

There's an entire thread here, many many pages, where a core of Buddhist modernists try vainly to argue that, once someone is Awakened, his "sense bases disappear" (!). One of these modernists, one who claims he is Awakened, has even argued here on this forum that the "disappearance" of his sense bases has caused him to be more intensely assailed by sensory impingement. This is ultimately where this kind of Buddhist modernism leads: to a lack of understanding of rūpa, a lack of understanding of the what "the body" refers to, and a lack of understanding of what "sense bases" refers to. This then spirals out of control. Because the sense bases are misunderstood, contact is misunderstood. Because "the body" is misunderstood, the "birth" of that body is misunderstood. From these misunderstandings and many others like them, there arises a great aggregated mass of suffering for the Buddhist modernist, but one they don't see, one they don't acknowledge. Why is this? The metaphorical "Māra of the kilesas" has disguised himself as the Buddha, and he has disguised vanity and delusion as "the Dhamma." Seeing their vanity and delusion as "the Dhamma," they are not moved to renounce it, and the misunderstandings only proliferate further.

The Buddha could manifest rūpasaññā, as evidenced by his lack of blindness, amongst other things, such as his sense of touch. In the EBTs, the "rūpa" that he discards is future embodiment. It is "future" embodiment, because his body didn't disappear in the style of a Tibetan "rainbow body."

Why is the discarding of future embodiment "liberation?" Because the worldlings are trapped in DO, and this entrapment will cause subsequent bodies and subsequent minds (i.e. "birth," etc.).

If you "freed" yourself from rūpasaññā, you'd be incapable of perceiving the beings who suffer in saṃsāra. Unable to perceive them, you'd be unable to help them. This is not an acceptable position for a Buddha to be in, given that the Buddhas teach the Dhamma to worldlings who are so entrapped. If there is no rūpasaññā, there is no teaching the living beings who are comprised, in part, of rūpa.

How are living beings comprised of rūpa? Via the "rūpakkhandha," or "aggregate of rūpa."

How do we know that the aggregates of rūpa refers not only to physical material, but the physical material making up the body? From sources like MN 109 & 119:

"Monk, the four great existents (earth, water, fire, & wind) are the cause, the four great existents the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of form."

(then 119:)
"Furthermore, the monk reflects on this very body from the soles of the feet on up, from the crown of the head on down, surrounded by skin and full of various kinds of unclean things: 'In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, urine.' Just as if a sack with openings at both ends were full of various kinds of grain — wheat, rice, mung beans, kidney beans, sesame seeds, husked rice — and a man with good eyesight, pouring it out, were to reflect, 'This is wheat. This is rice. These are mung beans. These are kidney beans. These are sesame seeds. This is husked rice'; in the same way, the monk reflects on this very body from the soles of the feet on up, from the crown of the head on down, surrounded by skin and full of various kinds of unclean things: 'In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, urine.' And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body.

"Furthermore, the monk contemplates this very body — however it stands, however it is disposed — in terms of properties: 'In this body there is the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, & the wind property.'"


Then we have MN 28:
“And what is the material form aggregate affected by clinging? It is the four great elements and the material form derived from the four great elements. And what are the four great elements? They are the earth element, the water element, the fire element, and the air element. What, friends, is the earth element? The earth element may be either internal or external. What is the internal earth element? Whatever internally, belonging to oneself, is solid, solidified, and clung-to; that is, head-hairs, body-hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, bone-marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, diaphragm, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, contents of the stomach, feces, or whatever else internally, belonging to oneself, is solid, solidified, and clung-to: this is called the internal earth element.
(this one very clearly lays out the internal earth-element, and indeed all four internal elements, as referring to the physical body)

SN 12.62:
"Mendicants, when it comes to this body made up of the four primary elements, an unlearned ordinary person might become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed."
(translations from Ven Ṭhānissaro, last from from Ven Sujāto)

When rūpa is external, it is not the physical body itself. Instead, it is the direct object of the eye (cakkhu) and the indirect object of senses like "touch," etc. We can see this substantiated in suttas that outline the historical Buddhist theory of cognition, involving "contact" (phassa) and the like. What appears in the mind after this cognitive process is known as the aforementioned "rūpasaññā."
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 2:04 pm
Vivekananda wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 2:04 amQuite understandably, as it went against my understanding of DO.
This is because there is already a technical Buddhist term for "the appearances that appear via the mind." It is "rūpasaññā." Buddhist modernists regularly dramatically misunderstand the relationship between rūpa and rūpasaññā.

There's an entire thread here, many many pages, where a core of Buddhist modernists try vainly to argue that, once someone is Awakened, his "sense bases disappear" (!). One of these modernists, one who claims he is Awakened, has even argued here on this forum that the "disappearance" of his sense bases has caused him to be more intensely assailed by sensory impingement. This is ultimately where this kind of Buddhist modernism leads: to a lack of understanding of rūpa, a lack of understanding of the what "the body" refers to, and a lack of understanding of what "sense bases" refers to. This then spirals out of control. Because the sense bases are misunderstood, contact is misunderstood. Because "the body" is misunderstood, the "birth" of that body is misunderstood. From these misunderstandings and many others like them, there arises a great aggregated mass of suffering for the Buddhist modernist, but one they don't see, one they don't acknowledge. Why is this? The metaphorical "Māra of the kilesas" has disguised himself as the Buddha, and he has disguised vanity and delusion as "the Dhamma." Seeing their vanity and delusion as "the Dhamma," they are not moved to renounce it, and the misunderstandings only proliferate further.

The Buddha could manifest rūpasaññā, as evidenced by his lack of blindness, amongst other things, such as his sense of touch. In the EBTs, the "rūpa" that he discards is future embodiment. It is "future" embodiment, because his body didn't disappear in the style of a Tibetan "rainbow body."

Why is the discarding of future embodiment "liberation?" Because the worldlings are trapped in DO, and this entrapment will cause subsequent bodies and subsequent minds (i.e. "birth," etc.).

If you "freed" yourself from rūpasaññā, you'd be incapable of perceiving the beings who suffer in saṃsāra. Unable to perceive them, you'd be unable to help them. This is not an acceptable position for a Buddha to be in, given that the Buddhas teach the Dhamma to worldlings who are so entrapped. If there is no rūpasaññā, there is no teaching the living beings who are comprised, in part, of rūpa.

How are living beings comprised of rūpa? Via the "rūpakkhandha," or "aggregate of rūpa."

How do we know that the aggregates of rūpa refers not only to physical material, but the physical material making up the body? From sources like MN 109 & 119:

"Monk, the four great existents (earth, water, fire, & wind) are the cause, the four great existents the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of form."

(then 119:)
"Furthermore, the monk reflects on this very body from the soles of the feet on up, from the crown of the head on down, surrounded by skin and full of various kinds of unclean things: 'In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, urine.' Just as if a sack with openings at both ends were full of various kinds of grain — wheat, rice, mung beans, kidney beans, sesame seeds, husked rice — and a man with good eyesight, pouring it out, were to reflect, 'This is wheat. This is rice. These are mung beans. These are kidney beans. These are sesame seeds. This is husked rice'; in the same way, the monk reflects on this very body from the soles of the feet on up, from the crown of the head on down, surrounded by skin and full of various kinds of unclean things: 'In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, urine.' And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body.

"Furthermore, the monk contemplates this very body — however it stands, however it is disposed — in terms of properties: 'In this body there is the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, & the wind property.'"


Then we have MN 28:
“And what is the material form aggregate affected by clinging? It is the four great elements and the material form derived from the four great elements. And what are the four great elements? They are the earth element, the water element, the fire element, and the air element. What, friends, is the earth element? The earth element may be either internal or external. What is the internal earth element? Whatever internally, belonging to oneself, is solid, solidified, and clung-to; that is, head-hairs, body-hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, bone-marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, diaphragm, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, contents of the stomach, feces, or whatever else internally, belonging to oneself, is solid, solidified, and clung-to: this is called the internal earth element.
(this one very clearly lays out the internal earth-element, and indeed all four internal elements, as referring to the physical body)

SN 12.62:
"Mendicants, when it comes to this body made up of the four primary elements, an unlearned ordinary person might become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed."
(translations from Ven Ṭhānissaro, last from from Ven Sujāto)

When rūpa is external, it is not the physical body itself. Instead, it is the direct object of the eye (cakkhu) and the indirect object of senses like "touch," etc. We can see this substantiated in suttas that outline the historical Buddhist theory of cognition, involving "contact" (phassa) and the like. What appears in the mind after this cognitive process is known as the aforementioned "rūpasaññā."
:goodpost:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by Vivekananda »

Well "rūpasaññā" and "rūpakkhandha" sound a bit like "wicked abhidhammika" terms, but the point i want to make, is that the difference is minor, especially for the practical approach. Ajahn Dtun did maybe read half a book of the Tipitaka but is said to have gone beyond...
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Vivekananda wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 6:21 am Well "rūpasaññā" and "rūpakkhandha" sound a bit like "wicked abhidhammika" terms, but the point i want to make, is that the difference is minor, especially for the practical approach. Ajahn Dtun did maybe read half a book of the Tipitaka but is said to have gone beyond...
They aren’t Abhidhamma terms.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by Coëmgenu »

They are terms from the Buddha's Pāli suttas.

It's not good when anything that seems "technical" or complicated is labeled "Abhidhamma" by default.

:?

Khandhas aren't "Ābhidhammika," nor are they "wicked" Ābhidhammika terms.

Also, the difference between real Buddhism and "when you're Awakened your sense bases will all disappear!" is rather large and significant, to be quite honest. As far as "all your sense bases disappear" constitutes a "practical approach," it is completely at variance with the truth of the matter, and nothing is more practical than just the straightforward truth.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by Vivekananda »

It's not good when anything that seems "technical" or complicated is labeled "Abhidhamma" by default.
True, excuse the provocant statement, but i expected to get some Suttas to prove that.

Well i did not state anything like
when you're Awakened your sense bases will all disappear!
My point is, that there is no need to be exclusive about DO, you can apply it gross or sublte.

And practically, there were (are) very illiterate monks, who are said to have gone far, without breaking their heads about such points.
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by Coëmgenu »

Vivekananda wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 10:31 am[...] i expected to get some Suttas to prove that.
The Saññāsutta at SN 18.6 outlines the six kinds of saññā associated with the six senses: "rūpasaññā," "saddasaññā," etc. up to "dhammasaññā." The Āneñjasappāyasutta at MN 106 references the difference between rūpa and rūpasaññā. The Rūpādisuttanavaka at SN 18.12-20 explains the gradual process of cognition, from "rūpā" (the object of the eye) to "cakkhuviññāṇa" (the consciousness associated with the eye) to "cakkhusamphasso" (the contact associated with the eye) to "cakkhusamphassajā vedanā" (the subsequent vedanā arisen of the contact) to "rūpasaññā" (the perception of the object spoken of at the beginning of the list).

This process continues. We have now the cognitive response to the saññā: rūpasañcetanā & rūpataṇhā (intentions and thirst/craving regarding the rūpa).

Do you need a sutta establishing that "rūpakkhandha" is suttic and not abhidhammic?
Vivekananda wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 10:31 amAnd practically, there were (are) very illiterate monks, who are said to have gone far, without breaking their heads about such points.
These suttas were, in theory, once oral, as were the matrices of the Abhidharmas. For instance, in the case of the sequence above reproduced from the Rūpādisuttanavaka, the reciter only needs to remember seven steps to the sequence. It might seem extra complicated because the language is so different from English, but it's only seven things to remember.

Eventually, if we go back far enough in history, all Buddhists or most were "illiterate." Oral cultures got by without writing for ages. That doesn't mean that they exclusively dealt with simpler material back then during these "oral times." They just memorized better.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by Pulsar »

A user wrote
Consciousness does not feed the body, and much less does it feed the mind. It is the mind. It is neither the food of the body nor is it the food of the mind.
Body in dependent origination is the form arising in the mind/consciouness due to the craving, operating at the five sensory doors. This is how the old consciousness gives rise to a new consciousness, and extends the desire for existence.
In Buddha's dispensation, consciousness is relentless renewed, in the puthujjana.
In the Vedic understanding it is not.
Salayatana Samyutta, Dhatusamyutta plus SN 12.63 offer evidence.
CD Patton noted on page 1 of this thread, followers used the word 'body/form" according to their understanding or preference. I think Buddhist sects are created by such means, vibajjavadins for instance.
Patton Wrote
Pulsar wrote: ↑Thu May 26, 2022 12:31 pm
It is impossible to convince the believers in MN 10 that kaya/rupa/form/color (the last is how Chinese describe first foundation). Or it is how the first aggregate is translated in Chinese, as color.
Chinese were on to something??
Color is only one meaning of 色. It's actually a very apt translation of Skt. rūpa, meaning "appearance, form, color." It can also mean a person's face, countenance, or looks (as in a woman's attractiveness to men) in ordinary Chinese idioms outside of Buddhist translations. So, it was a good choice for a translation of the rūpa. Of course, Buddhists extended its meaning to refer to the external objects that the eye sees, and it took on the meaning of material things.
I will elaborate on SN 12.63, Son's Flesh when I have the time.
With love :candle:
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by l_rivers »

The Buddha said
When name-and-form is fully understood, I say, there is nothing further that a noble disciple needs to do.”
I read this and then I realized this implies describing the way to understand name-and-form would be a description of the Path or Marga. Then I thoight "naw, that can't be right." Then I thought "well maybe."

Am I getting ahead of my skies here? Please elaborate.
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by mjaviem »

l_rivers wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 4:00 pm The Buddha said
When name-and-form is fully understood, I say, there is nothing further that a noble disciple needs to do.”
I read this and then I realized this implies describing the way to understand name-and-form would be a description of the Path or Marga. Then I thoight "naw, that can't be right." Then I thought "well maybe."

Am I getting ahead of my skies here? Please elaborate.
To fully understand isn't just about intellectual understanding. It isn't either about some measure of insight. It means the destruction of lust, hatred, and delusion. What I understand as cessation.
SN 22.23 Bodhi wrote:...
“And what, bhikkhus, is full understanding? The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion. This is called full understanding.”
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by BrokenBones »

l_rivers wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 4:00 pm The Buddha said
When name-and-form is fully understood, I say, there is nothing further that a noble disciple needs to do.”
I read this and then I realized this implies describing the way to understand name-and-form would be a description of the Path or Marga. Then I thoight "naw, that can't be right." Then I thought "well maybe."

Am I getting ahead of my skies here? Please elaborate.
Repeat, repeat and repeat. Assimilate, assimilate and assimilate... it becomes our 'View'.

Think about the view of a sex addict and how their thoughts imbue their very fibre until it's their 'indestructible' view of the world and they live accordingly. It's the same process.

What method works in the unwholesome direction also works in the wholesome direction... it would have to be that way.

The Right eightfold path and the wrong eightfold path.

The only thing that sets us apart from other species on earth is our intellect and ability to think/reason... we should probably use it rather than await a magical drop of intuitive enlightenment. How are lust and hatred to be destroyed without calm reflective meditation on the truths? The deeper their assimilation the deeper our samadhi becomes and the deeper our understanding.
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by Pulsar »

I_rivers wrote
The Buddha said
When name-and-form is fully understood, I say, there is nothing further that a noble disciple needs to do.”
I read this and then I realized this implies describing the way to understand name-and-form would be a description of the Path or Marga. Then I thoight "naw, that can't be right." Then I thought "well maybe."

Am I getting ahead of my skies here? Please elaborate.
You appear to be genuinely curious, which I find, refreshing. The answer to your question is "NO you are not getting ahead of your skis".
You are on the right track, as long as you have interpreted name-and-form correctly according to Paticca Samuppada. If you have misinterpreted it, all bets are off.
Text critical studies come to the forefront.
In the earliest buddhism we do not find Vibajjavada (Theravada) nor Mahayana. When all the obscurations introduced by later schools are lifted, we find Buddha in plain sight, in a profound simplicity.
A link to Jhana and Buddhist Scholasticism, by Martin Stuart Fox co-author of "Reconstructing Early Buddhism" by Dr. Roderick S. Bucknell
http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documen ... x_1989.pdf
Give it a read, it is very helpful. He is the co-author of Reconstructing Early Buddhism by Dr. Roderick S. Bucknell
With love :candle:
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by Pulsar »

Sadat wrote on another thread ...when I mentioned Samudaya Sutta. I brought the discussion here, since anything to do with SN 47.42, I like to do it here.
Pulsar. Would you be able to provide a simple example of how SN 47.42 is implemented in practice?
I can give you a simple example, provided you have a profound understanding of "How Suffering originates"
Imagine you are in a romantic relationship, in such a case, you tend to think of the other person when she/he is not with you. Right?
Everytime you think of the person your craving mind (full of asava or thirst) brings forth a picture of the person.
Now that mental picture your eye consciousness retrieves is marked by nimittas, or features and signs peculiar to your asava.
No one else not even her/his brother would retrieve a picture of that person as you do.
Your thirst is intense. Your thirsting mind simultaneously identifies the image with love, longing etc. Rupa of hers gets identified based on the nimittas your underlying tendency has marked this image.
This is all mental, the person is not with you at the moment. With that naming or identification of what arose (in the visual consciousness, the rupa) a new consciousness is created. If you are practicing SN 47.42 you are good at blocking the rupa emerging, so there is no need for naming (Nama-rupa).
If there is no Nama rupa, no new consciousness arises regarding this person. You have removed one tiny obsession/ papanca regarding your loved person. Are you with me so far?
Now what caused the arising of that rupa that got named? Can you give me an answer? The answer is in the first verse of SN 47.42. I will give you a hint, it has to do with feeding, or how consciousness feeds.
You wrote
I can give a Lets say someone indulges in a pleasure of romantic relationships. What would it mean to renounce it from the perspective of this sutta?

So from the perspective of this sutta, if you practice it accordingly, in the times of your meditation, you are not obsessing over that person. There is no need to sit cross legged to meditate so. You can do it anytime of the day, discipline your mind, so that her/his rupa does not appear in your mind. If you succeed like this, you don't have to worry about further feelings arising due to the person. Once contact is blocked no related feeling arises.
The suffering ceases at least during that meditation.

You wrote
BTW, it seems to me that a very critical piece in the sutta you shared is "it is impossible that prince Jayasena, living in the midst of sensual pleasure ...could know, could see, or realize that which must be known by renunciation"
This is true, if you are obsessed by sensual thought, you cannot meditate as outlined in SN 47.42.
You wrote
This reminds of some other suttas where Buddha says that the more people engage in pleasures, the more they want pleasures. So the first step has to be to simply abstain from pleasures. Then one can start building on it further. At least this is my current understanding.
Have you read MN 36? It has an amazing simile about 3 fire sticks. The first time I read it, this simile just jumped out at me and I thought "These are definitely Tathagata's words"
How does that simile strike you?
With love :candle:
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by l_rivers »

This is a wonderful thread. A bouquet deep blue summer skies to everyone.

Leo :toast:
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by Sadat »

Pulsar wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 8:49 pm Sadat wrote on another thread ...when I mentioned Samudaya Sutta. I brought the discussion here, since anything to do with SN 47.42, I like to do it here.
Pulsar. Would you be able to provide a simple example of how SN 47.42 is implemented in practice?
I can give you a simple example, provided you have a profound understanding of "How Suffering originates"
Imagine you are in a romantic relationship, in such a case, you tend to think of the other person when she/he is not with you. Right?
Everytime you think of the person your craving mind (full of asava or thirst) brings forth a picture of the person.
Now that mental picture your eye consciousness retrieves is marked by nimittas, or features and signs peculiar to your asava.
No one else not even her/his brother would retrieve a picture of that person as you do.
Your thirst is intense. Your thirsting mind simultaneously identifies the image with love, longing etc. Rupa of hers gets identified based on the nimittas your underlying tendency has marked this image.
This is all mental, the person is not with you at the moment. With that naming or identification of what arose (in the visual consciousness, the rupa) a new consciousness is created. If you are practicing SN 47.42 you are good at blocking the rupa emerging, so there is no need for naming (Nama-rupa).
If there is no Nama rupa, no new consciousness arises regarding this person. You have removed one tiny obsession/ papanca regarding your loved person. Are you with me so far?
Now what caused the arising of that rupa that got named? Can you give me an answer? The answer is in the first verse of SN 47.42. I will give you a hint, it has to do with feeding, or how consciousness feeds.
You wrote
I can give a Lets say someone indulges in a pleasure of romantic relationships. What would it mean to renounce it from the perspective of this sutta?

So from the perspective of this sutta, if you practice it accordingly, in the times of your meditation, you are not obsessing over that person. There is no need to sit cross legged to meditate so. You can do it anytime of the day, discipline your mind, so that her/his rupa does not appear in your mind. If you succeed like this, you don't have to worry about further feelings arising due to the person. Once contact is blocked no related feeling arises.
The suffering ceases at least during that meditation.

You wrote
BTW, it seems to me that a very critical piece in the sutta you shared is "it is impossible that prince Jayasena, living in the midst of sensual pleasure ...could know, could see, or realize that which must be known by renunciation"
This is true, if you are obsessed by sensual thought, you cannot meditate as outlined in SN 47.42.
You wrote
This reminds of some other suttas where Buddha says that the more people engage in pleasures, the more they want pleasures. So the first step has to be to simply abstain from pleasures. Then one can start building on it further. At least this is my current understanding.
Have you read MN 36? It has an amazing simile about 3 fire sticks. The first time I read it, this simile just jumped out at me and I thought "These are definitely Tathagata's words"
How does that simile strike you?
With love :candle:
Dear Pulsar, thanks for taking time to explain.

Blocking contact as soon as possible makes sense. It matches real life experience. But is there any other way that people do?

If I understand your approach to DO correctly, the strength of craving depends on the amount of "feeding" done in the past. Is this correct?

Regarding MN36, I have only briefly looked at it so unfortunately cannot comment much.

Do you have any posts where you explain how to practice proper meditation with practical instruction? This would really help me better understand your approach to the the teachings in Pali. I checked many of your old posts, but there is quite a few of them :)
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