Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
auto
Posts: 4583
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 8:49 pm ..
So from the perspective of this sutta, if you practice it accordingly, in the times of your meditation, you are not obsessing over that person. There is no need to sit cross legged to meditate so. You can do it anytime of the day, discipline your mind, so that her/his rupa does not appear in your mind. If you succeed like this, you don't have to worry about further feelings arising due to the person. Once contact is blocked no related feeling arises.
The suffering ceases at least during that meditation. ..
I think not so easy.
The rupa what arises(as you put it) prolly is the actual physcal body, which nearness is responsible for the contact to happen. When you are thinking of the person, there is no contact to be spoken of, but namarupa.
Two excluding matters, if you have the object as its real physical form nearby affecting, there happens the contact, not the namarupa.

just a discussion starter pack on sn47.42

Also the blocking of rupa(form) or contact(phassa) sounds wrong. Concentration would be called suppression and that is fabrication. Nirodha is about not making an intent to continue bhava(existence) or end bhava.

Can you bring a term for blocking? you mean it is the meaning of nirodha?
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by confusedlayman »

auto wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:19 pm
Pulsar wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 8:49 pm ..
So from the perspective of this sutta, if you practice it accordingly, in the times of your meditation, you are not obsessing over that person. There is no need to sit cross legged to meditate so. You can do it anytime of the day, discipline your mind, so that her/his rupa does not appear in your mind. If you succeed like this, you don't have to worry about further feelings arising due to the person. Once contact is blocked no related feeling arises.
The suffering ceases at least during that meditation. ..
I think not so easy.
The rupa what arises(as you put it) prolly is the actual physcal body, which nearness is responsible for the contact to happen. When you are thinking of the person, there is no contact to be spoken of, but namarupa.
Two excluding matters, if you have the object as its real physical form nearby affecting, there happens the contact, not the namarupa.

just a discussion starter pack on sn47.42

Also the blocking of rupa(form) or contact(phassa) sounds wrong. Concentration would be called suppression and that is fabrication. Nirodha is about not making an intent to continue bhava(existence) or end bhava.

Can you bring a term for blocking? you mean it is the meaning of nirodha?
end of existing tgought and no arising of new thought
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
auto
Posts: 4583
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by auto »

confusedlayman wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:09 pm end of existing tgought and no arising of new thought
does one end thoughts by using ones own willpower?
Pulsar
Posts: 2641
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by Pulsar »

Auto wrote
I think not so easy.

It is not so easy for those who think rupa is an actual body. And as for me, I just don't have the time to walk through dependent origination as taught by Buddha.
But I think once Retro had a post where he discussed this stuff, and in multiple places on DW I have presented suttas from Samyutta nikaya and Samyukta agama to support this.
I will look for the Retro post I am thinking of.
  • This thread is useful just for those with the conviction that rupa is an activity of the consciousness.
For those who are have reached the conclusion that rupa of DO is the physical body, I apologise, I am not capable of performing miracles. in the sense it would be a miracle if I succeeded in convincing you that rupa is an activity of the mind filled with craving, tanha or thirst.
Or that in the mind of Arahant "Rupa does not arise"
As for the verse you pulled from SN 4.11 to defend Niddesa viewpoint, (NIbbana of two kinds) that is stuff that originated with abhidhamma, I cannot find it in the Chinese version of Kalaha Vivada.
For the Buddha there was only one nibbana or one cooling.
When all the fires of rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana are blown out, that is nibbana.
Read the Fire Sermon once more, found in Mahavavagga of Vinaya, or in three different places in Samyuta Nikaya.
I have taken the trouble to compare each and every verse of Kalaha Vivada with each and every verse of its Chinese tranalstion.
I have neither the time nor energy to go over it like a teacher, step by step. But one day when I Have the time and in the mood, I will just try to post the relevant verses one against the other.
You write
Also the blocking of rupa(form) or contact(phassa) sounds wrong

To who? not to me.
Concentration would be called suppression and that is fabrication. Nirodha is about not making an intent to continue bhava(existence) or end bhava.
This is auto thinking, not Buddha's teaching.
You wrote
Can you bring a term for blocking? you mean it is the meaning of nirodha?
This chat is getting tiresome. Term for blocking? can you give me a term for blocking of craving, or the cessation of thirst? When thirst is blocked, contact is blocked.
Of course the cessation of thirst would be Nibbana.
  • What else is Nibbana, but the cessation of fires?
With love :candle:
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by confusedlayman »

auto wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:20 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:09 pm end of existing tgought and no arising of new thought
does one end thoughts by using ones own willpower?
No.. if u use will power.. u are willing thoughtless state.. anything willed is impermanent.. instead u "give up" .. give up is not willing.. when u see thoughtsare suffering, mind automatically switch off thoughts and go to resting phase... but if u dont see thoughts as scam, fake, suffering, no core etc and instead try to will and create new thoughtless experience, it is temporary...
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
auto
Posts: 4583
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:43 pm Auto wrote
I think not so easy.

It is not so easy for those who think rupa is an actual body. And as for me, I just don't have the time to walk through dependent origination as taught by Buddha.
But I think once Retro had a post where he discussed this stuff, and in multiple places on DW I have presented suttas from Samyutta nikaya and Samyukta agama to support this.
I will look for the Retro post I am thinking of.
  • This thread is useful just for those with the conviction that rupa is an activity of the consciousness.
For those who are have reached the conclusion that rupa of DO is the physical body, I apologise, I am not capable of performing miracles. in the sense it would be a miracle if I succeeded in convincing you that rupa is an activity of the mind filled with craving, tanha or thirst.
Or that in the mind of Arahant "Rupa does not arise"
I use images(scenes, what affect me) as a supplementary cause for to induce desire(chanda), to then focus on this desire. The purpose of it is to induce the burning desire(tanha). That burning desire what causes symptoms manifesting or affect(paṭigha) on the physical body.
For example hearing a bird sing: the sound strikes the ear, it has affect what streams into the physical body.

While at it, i can investigate my attention, when i put it on the object, also when i don't put it on the object; various ways, etc. Eventually i get the code right to move onto next things on the menu.

If i imagine an object or scene to arise, it is real, because it can happen for real.
auto
Posts: 4583
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by auto »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:10 pm
auto wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:20 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:09 pm end of existing tgought and no arising of new thought
does one end thoughts by using ones own willpower?
No.. if u use will power.. u are willing thoughtless state.. anything willed is impermanent.. instead u "give up" .. give up is not willing.. when u see thoughtsare suffering, mind automatically switch off thoughts and go to resting phase... but if u dont see thoughts as scam, fake, suffering, no core etc and instead try to will and create new thoughtless experience, it is temporary...
That's why i asked. If intrusive mental image arises, then if one simply removes it to then enjoy the absence of it, seem you just then cultivate the absence of it.
auto
Posts: 4583
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:43 pm This chat is getting tiresome. Term for blocking? can you give me a term for blocking of craving, or the cessation of thirst? When thirst is blocked, contact is blocked.
Of course the cessation of thirst would be Nibbana.
  • What else is Nibbana, but the cessation of fires?
With love :candle:
ok, one is watching football and yells at players they being so noob. It is possible to zone out of this and become conscious. Its possible to do it on body level, making the heart cold.
Artist when they see something funny in the audience, have their own methods, like biting the lip or something to stop the desire to giggle.

Is that what you speaking about?
auto
Posts: 4583
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:43 pm
Also the blocking of rupa(form) or contact(phassa) sounds wrong

To who? not to me.
I remember i can block the seminal outflow. So, yes perhaps you are right on some respects. Sorry.
auto
Posts: 4583
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:43 pm
Concentration would be called suppression and that is fabrication. Nirodha is about not making an intent to continue bhava(existence) or end bhava.
This is auto thinking, not Buddha's teaching.
i wrote it as a response to the word block you used. If it is suppression, then it is fabrication. I said fabrication in contrast to the meaning of nirodha.
auto
Posts: 4583
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 8:49 pm Sadat wrote on another thread ...when I mentioned Samudaya Sutta. I brought the discussion here, since anything to do with SN 47.42, I like to do it here.
Pulsar. Would you be able to provide a simple example of how SN 47.42 is implemented in practice?
I can give you a simple example, ..
i like your detailed analysis tho.
auto
Posts: 4583
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 8:49 pm This is all mental, the person is not with you at the moment. With that naming or identification of what arose (in the visual consciousness, the rupa) a new consciousness is created. If you are practicing SN 47.42 you are good at blocking the rupa emerging, so there is no need for naming (Nama-rupa).
If you block the rupa and thus the passions cease, you can continue the activity as before? wouldn't it be a kāma you speaking of?

kāma in ariyan discipline is a saṅkapparāga. It is used as a meditation object. Other words when there is desire one will focus on it. The rupa is what it is, it is personally associated with what stimulate the craving.

These things are bad when you come attached to them. If you avoid that happen and still get to know the future result(attachment) then the passions cease.
Once again, i don't see how simply blocking the object what stimulates you would stop it to stimulate you in the future. I think you need know the result firsthand to then when the desire arises you can use knowledge of the future result. And i think future refer to ayatana, sense bases. As you may try block the object get rest from passions, but it will still stimulate the eyes.
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by confusedlayman »

auto wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:29 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:10 pm
auto wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:20 pm
does one end thoughts by using ones own willpower?
No.. if u use will power.. u are willing thoughtless state.. anything willed is impermanent.. instead u "give up" .. give up is not willing.. when u see thoughtsare suffering, mind automatically switch off thoughts and go to resting phase... but if u dont see thoughts as scam, fake, suffering, no core etc and instead try to will and create new thoughtless experience, it is temporary...
That's why i asked. If intrusive mental image arises, then if one simply removes it to then enjoy the absence of it, seem you just then cultivate the absence of it.
removing how?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22404
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by Ceisiwr »

The idea that nibbāna is the removal of all mental images was the path of Āḷāra Kālāma and Uddaka Rāmaputta. Fine if you want to pursue that, but the Buddha’s path is different to that and much more profound.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by cappuccino »

confusedlayman wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:09 pm end of existing thought and no arising of new thought
you can’t end thought
Post Reply