Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 3:48 pm
Dear Pulsar. In my incomplete and imperfect understanding I think contact cannot possibly arise when the holy life has been lived. Craving is the source of the nutriment contact but we've learned Arahants have destroyed craving for good.
Conditionality is far more complex than your apparently linear and simplistic view of it. This body originates due to craving, yes. The Buddhas and Arahants still also have a body and experience contact. Those aren't mutually incompatible positions.
I think that dependent origination explains how everything comes to be
Do you think the star Epsilon Eridani or black holes come to be because of craving? In the 12-link formula only the sense bases or listed, not the external forms, sounds etc.
Even free from the formless because feelings have ceased for good. Contact and craving have ceased.
Craving has ceased for the Buddhas and Arahants, yes. Contact and feelings cease totally at their death, for good. Until then there is still the burden, the dying embers of a wandering for untold eons.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mjaviem
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 5:38 pm ...
Do you think the star Epsilon Eridani or black holes come to be because of craving? In the 12-link formula only the sense bases or listed, not the external forms, sounds etc.
...
SN 35.82 Bodhi wrote: Then a certain bhikkhu approached the Blessed One … and said to him: “Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the world, the world.’ In what way, venerable sir, is it said ‘the world’?”

“It is disintegrating, bhikkhu, therefore it is called the world. And what is disintegrating? The eye, bhikkhu, is disintegrating, forms are disintegrating, eye-consciousness is disintegrating, eye-contact is disintegrating, and whatever feeling arises with eye-contact as condition … that too is disintegrating. The ear is disintegrating … The mind is disintegrating … Whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition … that too is disintegrating. It is disintegrating, bhikkhu, therefore it is called the world.”
SN 12.44 Bodhi wrote: At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, I will teach you the origin and the passing away of the world. Listen to that and attend closely, I will speak.”

“Yes, venerable sir,” the bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this:

“And what, bhikkhus, is the origin of the world? In dependence on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be; with feeling as condition, craving; with craving as condition, clinging; with clinging as condition, existence; with existence as condition, birth; with birth as condition, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. This, bhikkhus, is the origin of the world.

“In dependence on the ear and sounds … In dependence on the nose and odours … In dependence on the tongue and tastes … In dependence on the body and tactile objects … In dependence on the mind and mental phenomena, mind-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be; with feeling as condition, craving; with craving as condition, clinging … existence … birth; with birth as condition, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. This, bhikkhus, is the origin of the world.
...
SN 35.23 Bodhi wrote: At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, I will teach you the all. Listen to that….

“And what, bhikkhus, is the all? The eye and forms, the ear and sounds, the nose and odours, the tongue and tastes, the body and tactile objects, the mind and mental phenomena. This is called the all.

“If anyone, bhikkhus, should speak thus: ‘Having rejected this all, I shall make known another all’—that would be a mere empty boast on his part. If he were questioned he would not be able to reply and, further, he would meet with vexation. For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, that would not be within his domain.”
SN 35.33 Bodhi wrote: At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, all is subject to birth. And what, bhikkhus, is the all that is subject to birth? The eye is subject to birth. Forms … Eye-consciousness … Eye-contact … Whatever feeling arises with eye-contact as condition … that too is subject to birth.

“The ear … The tongue … The body … The mind … Whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition … that too is subject to birth.

“Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple experiences revulsion towards the eye, towards forms, towards eye-consciousness, towards eye-contact … He understands: ‘… there is no more for this state of being.’”
...
SN 35.92 Bodhi wrote: “Bhikkhus, I will teach you the dyad. Listen to that….

“And what, bhikkhus, is the dyad? The eye and forms, the ear and sounds, the nose and odours, the tongue and tastes, the body and tactile objects, the mind and mental phenomena. This is called the dyad.

“If anyone, bhikkhus, should speak thus: ‘Having rejected this dyad, I shall make known another dyad’—that would be a mere empty boast on his part. If he was questioned he would not be able to reply and, further, he would meet with vexation. For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, that would not be within his domain.”
SN 35.22 Bodhi wrote: “Bhikkhus, the arising, continuation, production, and manifestation of forms is the arising of suffering, the continuation of disease, the manifestation of aging-and-death. The arising of the sounds … odours … tastes … tactile objects … mental phenomena is the arising of suffering, the continuation of disease, the manifestation of aging-and-death.

“The cessation, subsiding, and passing away of forms … mental phenomena is the cessation of suffering, the subsiding of disease, the passing away of aging-and-death.”
SN 35.95 Mālukyaputtasutta wrote:...
“Having seen a form with mindfulness muddled,
Attending to the sign of a dear thing,
One experiences it with infatuated mind
And remains tightly holding to it.

“Many feelings flourish within,
Originating from the visible form,
Covetousness and annoyance as well
By which one’s mind becomes disturbed.
For one who accumulates suffering thus
Nibbāna is said to be far away.

“Having heard a sound with mindfulness muddled …

“Having smelt an odour with mindfulness muddled …

“Having enjoyed a taste with mindfulness muddled …

“Having felt a contact with mindfulness muddled …

“Having known an object with mindfulness muddled …
For one who accumulates suffering thus
Nibbāna is said to be far away.
...
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Pulsar
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by Pulsar »

Dearest mjaviem: Your selections are wise. There is not a single sutta here in this list,
written by Pali compilers under the influence of Abhidhamma, not even partial influence. I have very little time to spare right now.
You are making great strides towards Nibbana. Lucky you! or good karma should we say?
With love :candle:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 7:54 pm ...
You didn't answer the question.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mjaviem
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 4:40 pm You didn't answer the question.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 5:38 pm ...
Do you think the star Epsilon Eridani or black holes come to be because of craving?
...
Sure they do. And with the cessation of craving the star epsilon Eridani or black holes cease to be. This all happens in the very present.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by Coëmgenu »

The cessation of who's craving? Gautama Buddha ceased craving, yet there they all are: the suns, stars, quasars, and even a puslar. Do you think that, for Gautama Buddha, there was no sun or moon? He just couldn't see them?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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mjaviem
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by mjaviem »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:07 pm The cessation of who's craving? Gautama Buddha ceased craving, yet there they all are: the suns, stars, quasars, and even a puslar. Do you think that, for Gautama Buddha, there was no sun or moon? He just couldn't see them?
There are people who understand in terms of beings and selves, and persons, and ask about who. And there are other people who can start understanding differently. In case you are part of the second group I will say that there's no one craving, it's just craving. Also will ask you to consider the difference between the stars and suns you see up in the sky and the stars and suns you see up in the sky with desire, with interest, delighting or perhaps seeking delight but not finding it, or admiring or finding beautiful or unattractive, being an observer of something which stands there. Do you think that upon awakening the sky goes dark and the bone chilling cold of the night goes away or is it that perhaps as we can learn from the suttas it's all about not craving, not clinging and ceasing to be. Do you think upon awakening there is still a world that is out there? An out and an in? A mine and a not mine? I encourage you to pay attention and study the suttas or keep doing it, I trust this is very beneficial to straigthen our understanding.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:17 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 4:40 pm You didn't answer the question.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 5:38 pm ...
Do you think the star Epsilon Eridani or black holes come to be because of craving?
...
Sure they do. And with the cessation of craving the star epsilon Eridani or black holes cease to be. This all happens in the very present.
I think that’s a tad too Idealistic for the Buddha. He never suggests that the external earth element etc are part of dependent origination. In modern lingo, that stars and the like don’t come to be dependent upon craving.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mjaviem
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:59 pm I think that’s a tad too Idealistic for the Buddha. He never suggests that the external earth element etc are part of dependent origination. In modern lingo, that stars and the like don’t come to be dependent upon craving.
That is your understanding as well as Buddhaghosa's I guess.

Please read again the suttas I provided for you in the post before.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 12:04 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:59 pm I think that’s a tad too Idealistic for the Buddha. He never suggests that the external earth element etc are part of dependent origination. In modern lingo, that stars and the like don’t come to be dependent upon craving.
That is your understanding as well as Buddhaghosa's I guess.

Please read again the suttas I provided for you in the post before.
Venerable Buddhaghosa rarely puts forward his own view, which makes him a bit unique amongst the famous elders of old. Rather he merely presents the views of the Abhidhamma and commentaries which are far older than him (some of the commentaries especially so). That said, I don’t think he would have disagreed. Regarding your quotes, it still remains to be seen how they support your claims.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mjaviem
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 12:14 am ... Regarding your quotes, it still remains to be seen how they support your claims.
All right, keep with your views in terms of existence and non-existence, keep with your way of studying as if the Buddha Dhamma were a scholar matter with claims and thesis to be debunked, etc. Perhaps that's the way that works for you. May you reach liberation in this or in the next life.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 12:22 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 12:14 am ... Regarding your quotes, it still remains to be seen how they support your claims.
All right, keep with your views in terms of existence and non-existence, keep with your way of studying as if the Buddha Dhamma were a scholar matter with claims and thesis to be debunked, etc. Perhaps that's the way that works for you. May you reach liberation in this or in the next life.
You can’t just make up any old claim you like and call it Dhamma. Undoubtedly you think those quotes support your view, so I’m just asking you to explain how so?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by Pulsar »

mjaviem wrote one of the most insightful comments I have read on DW.
There are people who understand in terms of beings and selves, and persons, and ask about who.
Reminds me of the teaching to Moliyaphagguna.
And there are other people who can start understanding differently. In case you are part of the second group I will say that there's no one craving, it's just craving.
Nicely said.
Also will ask you to consider the difference between the stars and suns you see up in the sky and the stars and suns you see up in the sky with desire, with interest, delighting or perhaps seeking delight but not finding it, or admiring or finding beautiful or unattractive,
In a way one can ask "the objects out there" do they come into existence, unless one's attention goes to them?
You wrote
Do you think that upon awakening the sky goes dark and the bone chilling cold of the night goes away or is it that perhaps as we can learn from the suttas it's all about not craving, not clinging and ceasing to be.
That is quite clever.
"ceasing to be" which pretty much means "not being" "not coming into being"
There is no "being" in the Arahant. Yet people think Buddha probably swore.
How little they understand the Buddha?
When asked "What happens to the Buddha upon death?" why did Buddha keep silent?
He must have got weary of being asked the same question by folks who failed to understand A, B, C of his teaching.
  • Buddha has ceased being.
But this is a dilemma to the ordinary person.
mjaviem wrote
Do you think upon awakening there is still a world that is out there? An out and an in? A mine and a not mine? I encourage you to pay attention and study the suttas or keep doing it, I trust this is very beneficial to straigthen our understanding.
Good point, My Dear mjaviem. Keep at it, perhaps your simpler way of stating things will carry the day.
Good Night :candle:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pulsar wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 12:31 am
In a way one can ask "the objects out there" do they come into existence, unless one's attention goes to them?
External objects are there. What comes into existence with attention is the consciousness of them. Without attention there is no visual consciousness etc, but the external objects are still there.
“Reverends, though the eye is intact internally, so long as exterior sights don’t come into range and there’s no corresponding engagement, there’s no manifestation of the corresponding type of consciousness. Though the eye is intact internally and exterior sights come into range, so long as there’s no corresponding engagement, there’s no manifestation of the corresponding type of consciousness. But when the eye is intact internally and exterior sights come into range and there is corresponding engagement, there is the manifestation of the corresponding type of consciousness.

The form produced in this way is included in the grasping aggregate of form. The feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness produced in this way are each included in the corresponding grasping aggregate.”
https://suttacentral.net/mn28/en/sujato ... ript=latin

The same is repeated for the other senses and their objects.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Sutta on Origination and concerns regarding Vitakka and vicara.

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 12:25 am You can’t just make up any old claim you like and call it Dhamma...
You are right. Allow me to call them the Dhamma as I understand it so far.
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 12:25 am ... Undoubtedly you think those quotes support your view, so I’m just asking you to explain how so?
They are meant to address your denial that the world is dependently originated as if it weren't dukkha. They explain the origin of the world.
Last edited by mjaviem on Fri Jun 03, 2022 12:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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