At a Spiritual Crossroads

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Tennyson
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At a Spiritual Crossroads

Post by Tennyson »

As the title of this post suggests, I've reached a spiritual crossroads and am unsure how to proceed, if at all, down one path or the other.

For most of my teenage and college years, I was an atheist. Dad was a preacher, got divorced multiple times, and I left the church after realizing I was bisexual. Once I went to college, I began taking courses in philosophy and religious traditions. Notably I found that Greek philosophy opened up a new way of seeing and interpreting the world, soon to be followed by Daoism, Buddhism, and Christian mysticism. My greatest spiritual influences have been Socrates/Plato, the Buddha, and Jesus. Yet I feel that I cannot combine what I have learned from these paths and live a proper spiritual life. If I could snap my fingers and be simultaneously a Platonist, a Buddhist, and a Christian, then I would by all means; however, it seems to me that such an outcome is not possible. There are concepts and intimations of truth which I've gleaned from all three paths--I think that out of all the world's religions Buddhism and Christianity have got the nature of the world and the path towards virtue all right--yet I cannot bring myself to unite them without feeling a sense of hypocrisy or outright ineptitude or failure.

I'm at a very important and perilous point in my life, personally and spiritually, and I didn't know where else to put this. If there is any advice at all that you could give me, it would be very much appreciated. With metta for all beings. :anjali:
DiamondNgXZ
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Re: At a Spiritual Crossroads

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

Tennyson wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 4:27 am As the title of this post suggests, I've reached a spiritual crossroads and am unsure how to proceed, if at all, down one path or the other.

For most of my teenage and college years, I was an atheist. Dad was a preacher, got divorced multiple times, and I left the church after realizing I was bisexual. Once I went to college, I began taking courses in philosophy and religious traditions. Notably I found that Greek philosophy opened up a new way of seeing and interpreting the world, soon to be followed by Daoism, Buddhism, and Christian mysticism. My greatest spiritual influences have been Socrates/Plato, the Buddha, and Jesus. Yet I feel that I cannot combine what I have learned from these paths and live a proper spiritual life. If I could snap my fingers and be simultaneously a Platonist, a Buddhist, and a Christian, then I would by all means; however, it seems to me that such an outcome is not possible. There are concepts and intimations of truth which I've gleaned from all three paths--I think that out of all the world's religions Buddhism and Christianity have got the nature of the world and the path towards virtue all right--yet I cannot bring myself to unite them without feeling a sense of hypocrisy or outright ineptitude or failure.

I'm at a very important and perilous point in my life, personally and spiritually, and I didn't know where else to put this. If there is any advice at all that you could give me, it would be very much appreciated. With metta for all beings. :anjali:
Look to atheist works to debunk God. Buddhism is the one with the more consistent theory of how samsara works, why is there suffering etc. As well as look for reincarnation evidences research, peer reviewed papers on kids who remember past lives and real world details matches their story.

Christianity's spiritual attainments are just stepping stones in Buddhism. Some map it to Jhanas means meeting or union with God, but it's not the ultimate according to Buddhism.

Read No self no problem: How Neuropsychology Is Catching Up to Buddhism by Chris Niebauer. How the soul concept is problematic in Philosophy in Identity philosophy etc.
Alino
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Re: At a Spiritual Crossroads

Post by Alino »

Look closely at your own experience ofvthe life, pay close attention to the nature of things, and make your choice from this direct experience point of view. Not from what you likes or dislikes, but from the facts, as it is.


PS personal anecdote about the matter... when i decided to learn more about religions, i took Bible, Coran, Torah and Buddhism for dummies and put the before me for making a choice of first reading. I knew that the book l will choose the first will influence me for the reading of other ones... Intuitively i took Buddhism for dummies... and more than 10 years latter i still not finished the other three books ^^
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
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Sam Vara
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Re: At a Spiritual Crossroads

Post by Sam Vara »

Tennyson wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 4:27 am ...
This post raises lots of different questions for me. Is it possible that your posting it on a Theravadan forum suggests that you have already moved in one direction rather than another, as you might have anticipated the sort of advice you are going to get here?

It's quite difficult to know what you mean by living a "proper spiritual life". Given that you have unresolved questions about the different traditions you refer to, what is to stop you just living your life and maintaining an interest in them all? It's not as if by doing so you burn your boats and make irrevocable decisions. Aspects of doctrine or intellectual ideas from the different traditions might be incompatible, but incompatibility doesn't equate to suffering. What makes us suffer is the strong desire to make them compatible, or the feeling that such incompatibility is somehow wrong. "I want to be the sort of person who has it all worked out, who has a clear path ahead of me, and who knows what to do!" Maybe for you, the spiritual life currently involves simply enduring any mental discomfort caused by not knowing certain things, or even relaxing and dissolving that discomfort completely.

If you were to make a "decision" to favour Buddhism, what would that actually amount to? Would you accept absolutely everything that the suttas and commentaries said, or would you still have reservations about some aspects? What about where the Buddha is portrayed doing things we think of as being scientifically impossible? How would you resolve dilemmas within Buddhism, such as "If there is no self, what gets reborn?" and which interpretation of Dependent Origination to favour? There will of course be plenty of people here on DW and elsewhere to declare the "right" answer to you, but such answers will always be based on their very limited understanding of the issues. The same applies to your prior question about the different paths. Is there anyone who has perfect apprehension of the realm of pure forms, has attained the Beatific Vision, and is an Arahant? They might be able to help you with the "truth" of such matters, but until then I suspect that this might be more an issue of the heart, rather than the head. My advice is to go with what feels right, maintain the precepts if you can, don't worry about apparent intellectual inconsistency, and accept things on a provisional basis. :anjali: :heart:
Spiny Norman
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Re: At a Spiritual Crossroads

Post by Spiny Norman »

Tennyson wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 4:27 am As the title of this post suggests, I've reached a spiritual crossroads and am unsure how to proceed, if at all, down one path or the other.

For most of my teenage and college years, I was an atheist. Dad was a preacher, got divorced multiple times, and I left the church after realizing I was bisexual. Once I went to college, I began taking courses in philosophy and religious traditions. Notably I found that Greek philosophy opened up a new way of seeing and interpreting the world, soon to be followed by Daoism, Buddhism, and Christian mysticism. My greatest spiritual influences have been Socrates/Plato, the Buddha, and Jesus. Yet I feel that I cannot combine what I have learned from these paths and live a proper spiritual life. If I could snap my fingers and be simultaneously a Platonist, a Buddhist, and a Christian, then I would by all means; however, it seems to me that such an outcome is not possible. There are concepts and intimations of truth which I've gleaned from all three paths--I think that out of all the world's religions Buddhism and Christianity have got the nature of the world and the path towards virtue all right--yet I cannot bring myself to unite them without feeling a sense of hypocrisy or outright ineptitude or failure.

I'm at a very important and perilous point in my life, personally and spiritually, and I didn't know where else to put this. If there is any advice at all that you could give me, it would be very much appreciated. With metta for all beings. :anjali:
I've come across people who managed to combine Buddhism and Christianity, though it sounds like an uncomfortable mix in some ways.
What religious practices do you find most useful, or most rewarding? It might be good to focus on what you do, rather than on what you think or believe.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Ontheway
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Re: At a Spiritual Crossroads

Post by Ontheway »

I have been that way too. Been exploring Asian mysticism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Mahayana, contemporary western buddhism, then Vibhajjavada.

And now I settled down with Buddha's teachings. It has been a perplexing journey but rewarding one.
chaththamanawaka-buddha-image-into-post.jpg
I suggest you can read Apannaka Sutta from Majjhima Nikaya.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Aloka
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Re: At a Spiritual Crossroads

Post by Aloka »

Dear Tennyson ,

Don't worry too much. Life is short, we can't be all things at all times. Perhaps you could investigate methods and teachings connected to how you can learn to just relax completely, and still practice the Dhamma.

. Stay safe & well.

With metta,

Aloka :anjali:
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Dhamma Chameleon
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Re: At a Spiritual Crossroads

Post by Dhamma Chameleon »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 10:49 am This post raises lots of different questions for me. Is it possible that your posting it on a Theravadan forum suggests that you have already moved in one direction rather than another, as you might have anticipated the sort of advice you are going to get here?

It's quite difficult to know what you mean by living a "proper spiritual life". Given that you have unresolved questions about the different traditions you refer to, what is to stop you just living your life and maintaining an interest in them all? It's not as if by doing so you burn your boats and make irrevocable decisions. Aspects of doctrine or intellectual ideas from the different traditions might be incompatible, but incompatibility doesn't equate to suffering. What makes us suffer is the strong desire to make them compatible, or the feeling that such incompatibility is somehow wrong. "I want to be the sort of person who has it all worked out, who has a clear path ahead of me, and who knows what to do!" Maybe for you, the spiritual life currently involves simply enduring any mental discomfort caused by not knowing certain things, or even relaxing and dissolving that discomfort completely.

If you were to make a "decision" to favour Buddhism, what would that actually amount to? Would you accept absolutely everything that the suttas and commentaries said, or would you still have reservations about some aspects? What about where the Buddha is portrayed doing things we think of as being scientifically impossible? How would you resolve dilemmas within Buddhism, such as "If there is no self, what gets reborn?" and which interpretation of Dependent Origination to favour? There will of course be plenty of people here on DW and elsewhere to declare the "right" answer to you, but such answers will always be based on their very limited understanding of the issues. The same applies to your prior question about the different paths. Is there anyone who has perfect apprehension of the realm of pure forms, has attained the Beatific Vision, and is an Arahant? They might be able to help you with the "truth" of such matters, but until then I suspect that this might be more an issue of the heart, rather than the head. My advice is to go with what feels right, maintain the precepts if you can, don't worry about apparent intellectual inconsistency, and accept things on a provisional basis. :anjali: :heart:
:goodpost:

Being at a crossroads here is more of a feeling than objectively true. All you need to know is your next step. Then you will experience the results of that which will inform your next step. You may decide to then go in a different direction. You don't need to know your route yet, just carefully take your next step each time and your path will reveal itself.
santa100
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Re: At a Spiritual Crossroads

Post by santa100 »

Tennyson wrote:I'm at a very important and perilous point in my life, personally and spiritually, and I didn't know where else to put this. If there is any advice at all that you could give me, it would be very much appreciated. With metta for all beings.
World religions are a lot closer to one another than their typically portrayed images. All encourage one to start with observing the precepts and develop moral virtues. And when it comes to Sila, they're all pretty much the same: "Thou shall not kill" or "Abstain from taking life", "Thou shall not covet thy neighbor's wife" or "Abstain from sexual misconduct", etc. Once one's built a solid foundation with their Sila and ready to move on to cultivate Samadhi and Sanna, then it'd be the appropriate time to start concentrating on the religion that resonates with them the most. Unfortunately at this point, no one on the internet would be to help you since it's you and only you yourself would have to experiment with what rhymes with you the most. But even at this stage, I'd think world religions still share a lot of the same principles, as eloquently put by the Buddha in AN 8.53:
AN 8.53 wrote:"As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome': You may categorically hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction.'"
pegembara
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Re: At a Spiritual Crossroads

Post by pegembara »

I have heard of people who found the happy marriage between Christianity and Buddhism in the study of
"A Course in Miracles". Might be worth taking a look.

Some quotes-

“The world is only in the mind of its maker. Do not believe it is outside of yourself.”

“Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists. Herein lies the peace of God.”

“I am affected only by my thoughts.”

“In quietness are all things answered,”

“What you think you are is a belief to be undone.”

“It is impossible to seek for pleasure through the body and not find pain.”

“There is no one who does not feel that he is imprisoned in some way. If this is the result of his own free will he must regard his will as not free, or the circular reasoning in this position would be quite apparent. Free will must lead to freedom.”

“Forgiveness is the healing of the perception of separation.”

“The one wholly true thought one can hold about the past is that it is not here. To think about it at all is therefore to think about illusions.”

“God is in everything I see because God is in my mind.”
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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mjaviem
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Re: At a Spiritual Crossroads

Post by mjaviem »

Tennyson wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 4:27 am ... Buddhism and Christianity have got the nature of the world and the path towards virtue all right...
It depends on what you are after: Redepmtion and the Christian heaven?

Or the Buddhist liberation?:
AN 3.18 Bodhi wrote: “Bhikkhus, if wanderers of other sects were to ask you thus: ‘Friends, do you lead the spiritual life under the ascetic Gotama for the sake of rebirth in the deva world?’ wouldn’t you be repelled, humiliated, and disgusted?”

“Yes, Bhante.”

“Thus, bhikkhus, since you are repelled, humiliated, and disgusted with a celestial life span, celestial beauty, celestial happiness, celestial glory, and celestial authority, so much more then should you be repelled, humiliated, and disgusted with bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, and mental misconduct.”
Tennyson wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 4:27 am ... I've reached a spiritual crossroads and am unsure how to proceed, if at all, down one path or the other.
Choose right, and follow the Noble eightfold path.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Deadelectronics
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Re: At a Spiritual Crossroads

Post by Deadelectronics »

Tennyson wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 4:27 am Yet I feel that I cannot combine what I have learned from these paths and live a proper spiritual life. If I could snap my fingers and be simultaneously a Platonist, a Buddhist, and a Christian, then I would by all means; however, it seems to me that such an outcome is not possible. There are concepts and intimations of truth which I've gleaned from all three paths--I think that out of all the world's religions Buddhism and Christianity have got the nature of the world and the path towards virtue all right--yet I cannot bring myself to unite them without feeling a sense of hypocrisy or outright ineptitude or failure.

I'm at a very important and perilous point in my life, personally and spiritually, and I didn't know where else to put this. If there is any advice at all that you could give me, it would be very much appreciated. With metta for all beings. :anjali:
You should create a burner email and post this topic in Christian forums. It is not fair to get one answer from a site with a clear Buddhist bias.
You are right, you ultimately cannot combine these two religions because one will be dominant and the other will be seen as bits of wisdom.
Let's take a common issue that would lead people to these 2 paths: Bad things happening to good people
This is a Catholic priest's answer to that question.

tldw: Do not say it is god's plan. God has perfect will, and these are good events he directly wants to happen in your life. He also has permissive will and these are bad events he allows to happen. Again, this is not gods plan because he is not a tyrant. Most of these bad events are for a greater good.
Now, here is a Sri Lankan monk's answer to the question.

tldw: Anatta. Life is unpredictable and not under your control. Same with Karma. Ultimately life and karma does not care about your deeds. We believe we are good people, so we expect good things to happen to us. Life is unfair. Instead of dwelling on these bad events we should think of happy memories.

Look at the comment sections of the video. Under the catholic one, there are people talking about their bad events and people questioning their faith in God. There are also people whose faith is reinforced by the video. In the Buddhist video is just agreement and further explanation like Sanisa's comment saying that people do not recognize the first noble truth. There is even a roman catholic commenting, which is important. They see buddhas teaching as motivation, as a philosophy. This is only how those with dual beliefs can make sense.

You say they both have the right path to virtue, so why add the unnecessary burden of believing in a god? Look at the priest talking about gods different type of wills instead of just admitting its part of his plan. Why would God allow something bad happens if he doesn't want it to happen? Look at the monk admitting that ultimately you cannot control life.

How would you comfort the people in the car?


Also, why won't God heal amputees?
Weird, how the priest didn't bring up satan. It's disappointing for the monk to not bring up metta meditation and suggest looking for ways to get out of a rut instead of escapism that could lead to maladaptive daydreaming.
Joy at last to know there is no happiness in the world!
Tennyson
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Re: At a Spiritual Crossroads

Post by Tennyson »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 10:49 am
This post raises lots of different questions for me. Is it possible that your posting it on a Theravadan forum suggests that you have already moved in one direction rather than another, as you might have anticipated the sort of advice you are going to get here?
I haven't moved in either direction. Initially I was going to post it on Dharmawheel but I didn't see if they had a specific section for connections to other paths like this site does. I do appreciate all the responses, though.
It's quite difficult to know what you mean by living a "proper spiritual life".

I guess I mean a life that is spiritually fulfilling. I was an atheist for years, and that kind of life just wasn't enough for me, in mind and spirit. I wanted something better, something more profound, something worth pursuing, a way of living with a clean mind and clean spirit. I hope this makes sense.
Given that you have unresolved questions about the different traditions you refer to, what is to stop you just living your life and maintaining an interest in them all? It's not as if by doing so you burn your boats and make irrevocable decisions. Aspects of doctrine or intellectual ideas from the different traditions might be incompatible, but incompatibility doesn't equate to suffering. What makes us suffer is the strong desire to make them compatible, or the feeling that such incompatibility is somehow wrong. "I want to be the sort of person who has it all worked out, who has a clear path ahead of me, and who knows what to do!" Maybe for you, the spiritual life currently involves simply enduring any mental discomfort caused by not knowing certain things, or even relaxing and dissolving that discomfort completely.
How would you define an "interest"? I wondered if I could be a baptized, practicing Christian and also a practicing Buddhist simultaneously, but I don't know if that's truly possible, given that, while there are points on which Buddhism and Christianity touch in a strikingly similar way, there are many points they disagree on. I suppose this is what the desire to make them compatible or to cohere means, and that is part of what suffering is.
If you were to make a "decision" to favour Buddhism, what would that actually amount to? Would you accept absolutely everything that the suttas and commentaries said, or would you still have reservations about some aspects? What about where the Buddha is portrayed doing things we think of as being scientifically impossible? How would you resolve dilemmas within Buddhism, such as "If there is no self, what gets reborn?" and which interpretation of Dependent Origination to favour? There will of course be plenty of people here on DW and elsewhere to declare the "right" answer to you, but such answers will always be based on their very limited understanding of the issues. The same applies to your prior question about the different paths. Is there anyone who has perfect apprehension of the realm of pure forms, has attained the Beatific Vision, and is an Arahant?
I don't know if I would wholeheartedly accept everything said in the suttas and commentaries, at least not right away. That, I think, would be foolish. I don't accept everything said in the Bible, either. I think of the many miraculous stories in the Bible as being myths which contain truths within them, truths disguised as stories in order to give them staying power in the narrative of a people like the Israelites or the Christians. I don't imagine that the stories of the Buddha are interpreted the same way, though I could be wrong (please let me know whether this is the case or not). Some of the dilemmas within Buddhism, especially the more abstract questions, aren't invalid in my eyes but also don't seem relevant to the immediate tasks of practicing sila and meditation and so on. Didn't the Buddha have a series of questions which he would not answer because they were not relevant to the goal of awakening?
They might be able to help you with the "truth" of such matters, but until then I suspect that this might be more an issue of the heart, rather than the head.
How so?
My advice is to go with what feels right, maintain the precepts if you can, don't worry about apparent intellectual inconsistency, and accept things on a provisional basis. :anjali: :heart:
I suppose this is the best course of action for me, at least in the moment. Thanks. :-)
4GreatHeavenlyKings
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Re: At a Spiritual Crossroads

Post by 4GreatHeavenlyKings »

> I think of the many miraculous stories in the Bible as being myths which contain truths within them, truths disguised as stories in order to give them staying power in the narrative of a people like the Israelites or the Christians.

Who is to say, though, that those truths are really true? Buddhists and atheists would even dismiss as false the claim that the world was created by an uncreated creator god.

>I don't imagine that the stories of the Buddha are interpreted the same way, though I could be wrong (please let me know whether this is the case or not).

Commentaries are useful for this reason.

>Didn't the Buddha have a series of questions which he would not answer because they were not relevant to the goal of awakening?

You think about the Sabbāsava Sutta (MN 2), with its 16 questions:



Questions about the past:

Did I exist in the past?
Did I not exist in the past?
What was I in the past?
How was I in the past?
After being what, what did I become in the past?
Will I exist in the future?
Will I not exist in the future?
What will I be in the future?
How will I be in the future?
After being what, what will I become in the future?’

Questions about the present:

Am I?
Am I not?
What am I?
How am I?
This sentient being—where did it come from?
And where will it go?’

After presenting this list of questions in the sutta, the Buddha states:

When they attend improperly in this way, one of the following six views arises in them and is taken as a genuine fact. The view: ‘My self exists in an absolute sense.’ The view: ‘My self does not exist in an absolute sense.’ The view: ‘I perceive the self with the self.’ The view: ‘I perceive what is not-self with the self.’ The view: ‘I perceive the self with what is not-self.’ Or they have such a view: ‘This self of mine is he who speaks and feels and experiences the results of good and bad deeds in all the different realms. This self is permanent, everlasting, eternal, and imperishable, and will last forever and ever.’ This is called a misconception, the thicket of views, the desert of views, the trick of views, the evasiveness of views, the fetter of views. An uneducated ordinary person who is fettered by views is not freed from rebirth, old age, and death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress. They’re not freed from suffering, I say.
Rutimo
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Re: At a Spiritual Crossroads

Post by Rutimo »

Hi Tennyson and everybody else. I've been lurking this forum for a while, but thought to drop in as this is a topic I've been thinking a lot.

I've been Christian for most of my life, but a few years ago I felt that this religion just doesn't give me the answers I've been looking for and doesn't help to reduce the suffering. Also, the deeper you dived into the doctrine the more complicated the answers became.

I think there are two sides to Christianity. The one is the universal teaching that appeals to the conscience of every man. For example the story of the Good Samaritan is very intuitive for all people regardless of culture and faith. If you want to do good, help your neighbor in need.

Then there is the other side and that is how Christianity was formulated as an answer to the problems of Jewish people and Jewish faith. I believe Jesus came to help his own people who had got lost in religious practices that turned them away from the love of other people. Also, the wrathful God of Moses and the prophets needed atonement in order to be seen as a loving and compassionate God.

Apostle Paul seems to have found the answers he was seeking for as a pharisee in Christ and developed the theology further. However, the problems he seeks to address are not necessarily ones that are relevant for whole humankind, although that is what Christians usually preach. If you try to put this all into a coherent and congruent philosophical package you are to run into questions that are very difficult to answer and you just have to take them by faith.

Also, what is written in the Bible about Jesus and by the apostles is more like anecdotes than a systematic exposition of faith. This has given generations of theologians endless amount of work to bridge the gaps in the original teaching.

Buddhism on the other hand is very systematic in it's teaching. At least in the Theravada tradition there is little that you just need to take by faith. Certain things will happen if you start to practice, so you can see for yourself if the teachings are any good. No leap of faith needed in order to avoid eternal punishment in hell, but no shortcut to salvation either.

In their orthodox form these two religions are hardly reconcilable. However, I believe there is much in Christianity that can be inspiring for a Buddhist in how to practice compassion.

One of the difficult questions in bridging the gap between Christian and Buddhist views is the concept of monotheistic God. Vietnamese zen master Thich Nhat Hanh (not in Theravada tradition) teaches that God is everything and through meditation you can deepen your relationship with this universal being. You can read more about it here: https://plumvillage.app/thich-nhat-hanh-on-god/ This teaching has given me comfort. Even though my faith has changed a lot, I believe there was some legitimacy in the faith I used to have, even though there were many errors.

Regarding salvation, Buddhism and Christianity take different paths, although they both share the concept of karma to some extent. Strive to be good, in order to have a beneficial rebirth, whether it is in Heaven or on earth. Is nibbana same thing as union with God is a question that probably both Christian and Buddhist scholars will have fierce opinions on, but if you practice meditation and have good intents towards other beings, I think you can advance on the path without knowing the answer. Maybe the answer will become more clear at some stage and you don't need to feel anxious about it.

Thank you for the forum!
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