Walking back and forth in Jhana (AN3.63)

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Walking back and forth in Jhana (AN3.63)

Post by Ceisiwr »

Alex123 wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 11:02 pm
I am not an expert in pali, so I have to go with belief that they were correct in what the pali literally said "while walking".
A literal reading would, as far as I can see, conform to Sylvester's analysis. True however that it could somehow mean instead "while walking", but this brings me back to the issue I raised earlier. The sutta then becomes nonsensical IMO.
The Buddha ridiculed "don't see, don't hear" practice of brahman Pārāsiri, taught that the way is in proper understanding of 6 sense perception as it occurs, and then later in the sutta tell "go do jhana". It is hard for me to reconcile with that idea being part of Buddhist Jhana.
Yes he did, but that doesn't then mean the Jhānas occur with the 5 senses.
If jhana-s required cessation of 5 senses, etc, then why none of the standard formulas say so?

It would have been so clear if the stock formulas said something (I've coloured my example):

""There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, after merging with nimitta, and with 5 sense perceptions totally ceased, enters and remains in the first jhana".
According to the commentators and some modern monks and nuns, "vivicceva kāmehi" means "absolutely secluded from external sensual pleasures" and is bodily seclusion, whilst "vivicca akusalehi dhammeh" is seclusion from the hindrances and so is mental seclusion. There being absolute bodily seclusion and mental seclusion, in conjunction with directed and sustained thought and one-pointedness of mind towards a nimitta, it's hard to see how the other senses are being experienced. I'll grant that nimitta aren't described in the suttas. We do get hints at them IMO, with the samathanimittaṁ & abyagganimittaṁ, but still nothing definitive. I don't see that as an issue though. I don't because I do not think the suttas contain everything required. I think they are very important, of course, but that Buddhism is also a living meditation tradition. Some things are passed on from master to pupil, down the ages, which wouldn't be recorded in suttas. I think nimittas then are a normal part of developing deed states of tranquility, calm and one-pointedness. For example we obviously see them in the Theravādin literature, but they also occur in northern meditation texts too such as the Dhyāna sutras
Question: How can one recognize the signs of single-mindedness?

Answer: When the mind dwells on an image, the body would be soft, gentle, and blissful. All anger, anxiety, grief, and other afflictive mental dharmas are ceased.174 The mind acquires swift blissfulness never before experienced, which surpasses the five desires. Because the mind is pure without any defilement, the body will shine brightly. It is like a pure and clean mirror [shining] the light externally, or like the shining light of bright pearl that appears, illumines, and manifests in the pure water. After having seen these signs, the cultivator‘s mind is calm, tranquil, joyful, and delightful...

Question: What are the marks of attaining the first dhyāna?

Answer: At first, one uses proper mindfulness to admonish and halt five desires. Although one has not attained the ground [of the first dhyāna], the mind is joyful, delightful, soft, harmonious, and gentle; the body has bright light. When one attains the first dhyāna, its mark is that it continuously changes, increases, and excels [than before]. Because the four elements of the Desire Realm spread fully all over the body, which is soft, harmonious, gentle, and joyful signs, and the mind leaves bad desire and unwholesome deed, then the samādhi of single-minded thought can cause one having joy and happiness.183 Forms created in the Form Realm have the feature of bright light. Hence, the cultivator sees the wonderful and bright light emitting from the body internally and externally. The mind of the cultivator changes differently. Within the angry situation, one does not get angry. Within the joyful situation, one does not have [much] joy. The eight kinds of worldly dharmas cannot move the cultivator.184 Faith, respect, shame, and conscience largely change and multiply. As for the clothes, food, and drink, one does not crave and attach to them. One only considers various wholesome deeds and meritorious morality as valuable, and others are worthless. One does not attach to even the five celestial desires, how much more the five impure desires of the secular world. For those who have attained the first dhyāna, these are the features.
That was taken from the Chán fǎ yào jiě (Essential Explanation of The Method of Dhyāna) by Venerable Kumārajīva. Now this piece of text comes from the Dārṣṭāntika sub-school of Sarvāstivāda. For them sukha in Jhāna is a bodily feeling, and so there is an experience of the body whilst in Jhāna. What is interesting to note though is that even here we see nimittas, as highlighted above. They also make an appearance in the Upanishads too

‘When yoga is being performed, the forms that come first, producing apparitions in Brahman, are those of misty smoke, sun, fire, wind, fire-flies, lightnings, and a crystal moon.”

- Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad
And avoid all the physical body similes like: "He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal."
Kāya can also be used in the sense of "personally", though I believe this is usually in it's instrumental form.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Alex123
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Re: Walking back and forth in Jhana (AN3.63)

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Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:45 pm According to the commentators and some modern monks and nuns, "vivicceva kāmehi" means "absolutely secluded from external sensual pleasures" and is bodily seclusion, whilst "vivicca akusalehi dhammeh" is seclusion from the hindrances and so is mental seclusion.
1st) Being secluded from five sense pleasures can mean that one goes into a secluded place, rather than tries to meditate in a busy kitchen or a strip club.

2nd)

External sense objects are NOT fetters:
Sariputta wrote: The eye is not the fetter of forms, nor are forms the fetter of the eye. Whatever desire & passion arises in dependence on the two of them: That is the fetter there. The ear is not the fetter of sounds... The nose is not the fetter of aromas... The tongue is not the fetter of flavors... The body is not the fetter of tactile sensations... The intellect is not the fetter of ideas, nor are ideas the fetter of the intellect. Whatever desire & passion arises in dependence on the two of them: That is the fetter there. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Furthermore the sensuality is the desire for objects, not objects themselves:
The passion for his resolves is a man's sensuality, not the beautiful sensual pleasures found in the world. The passion for his resolves is a man's sensuality.

The beauties remain as they are in the world, while the wise, in this regard, subdue their desire. AN6.63
Also interestingly, the perceptions (of 6 sense objects) are different, different from sensuality:
"There are these six kinds of perception:[3] the perception of form, the perception of sound, the perception of aroma, the perception of flavor, the perception of tactile sensation, the perception of ideas. AN6.63
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Walking back and forth in Jhana (AN3.63)

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Alex123 wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 10:35 pm
1st) Being secluded from five sense pleasures can mean that one goes into a secluded place, rather than tries to meditate in a busy kitchen or a strip club.
Sure but the commentators, the one's you earlier suggested knew Pāli better than us, say that it means absolutely secluded. So secluded that one does not hear sounds.
External sense objects are NOT fetters:
The problem is lust, yes.
Furthermore the sensuality is the desire for objects, not objects themselves:
According to your quote, the kāmā are external objects. This would then agree with the Visuddhimagga reading where there is absolute seclusion from the external pleasures (bodily seclusion) and the desire for them (mental seclusion). One abandons both the objective field and the subjective desires of the kāma-loka. However it should be noted that the Visuddhimagga allows for a reading where kāmā are desires for things as opposed to the things we desire, but that is based on the Vibhaṅga.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Walking back and forth in Jhana (AN3.63)

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When discussing the Jhanas we seem to suggest that all the factors are perfect on each and every occasion for each concentration. There is a Vinaya passage where Mogallana describes to other monks how he heard elephants bathing while in the imperturbable concentration (minimum 4th Jhana).

The Buddha replied to the monks that although it wasn’t pure, it was still classed as an the impurturbable concentration.This implies a degree of flexibility which could apply to each Jhana. Maybe the perfect 4th Jhana would have no perceptible breathing, but one where the factors are not pure could allow one to walk whilst in the attainment. The Buddha could switch between Jhanas at will, so I doubt he would enter the 4th whilst walking up the hills to Gayá’s Head, but maybe when walking on level ground if he wanted to.
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Re: Walking back and forth in Jhana (AN3.63)

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NAD wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 4:59 pm When discussing the Jhanas we seem to suggest that all the factors are perfect on each and every occasion for each concentration. There is a Vinaya passage where Mogallana describes to other monks how he heard elephants bathing while in the imperturbable concentration (minimum 4th Jhana).

The Buddha replied to the monks that although it wasn’t pure, it was still classed as an the impurturbable concentration.This implies a degree of flexibility which could apply to each Jhana. Maybe the perfect 4th Jhana would have no perceptible breathing, but one where the factors are not pure could allow one to walk whilst in the attainment. The Buddha could switch between Jhanas at will, so I doubt he would enter the 4th whilst walking up the hills to Gayá’s Head, but maybe when walking on level ground if he wanted to.
In other versions he was in the formless attainments.
The Buddha could switch between Jhanas at will, so I doubt he would enter the 4th whilst walking up the hills to Gayá’s Head, but maybe when walking on level ground if he wanted to.
That would contradict the standard reading of the sutta. I think it's very unlikely that the Buddha or anyone else would be walking around whilst in the 4th Jhāna. Whilst in any Jhāna IMO.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Walking back and forth in Jhana (AN3.63)

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Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:02 pm
NAD wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 4:59 pm When discussing the Jhanas we seem to suggest that all the factors are perfect on each and every occasion for each concentration. There is a Vinaya passage where Mogallana describes to other monks how he heard elephants bathing while in the imperturbable concentration (minimum 4th Jhana).

The Buddha replied to the monks that although it wasn’t pure, it was still classed as an the impurturbable concentration.This implies a degree of flexibility which could apply to each Jhana. Maybe the perfect 4th Jhana would have no perceptible breathing, but one where the factors are not pure could allow one to walk whilst in the attainment. The Buddha could switch between Jhanas at will, so I doubt he would enter the 4th whilst walking up the hills to Gayá’s Head, but maybe when walking on level ground if he wanted to.
In other versions he was in the formless attainments.
The Buddha could switch between Jhanas at will, so I doubt he would enter the 4th whilst walking up the hills to Gayá’s Head, but maybe when walking on level ground if he wanted to.
That would contradict the standard reading of the sutta. I think it's very unlikely that the Buddha or anyone else would be walking around whilst in the 4th Jhāna. Whilst in any Jhāna IMO.
Can sounds be heard in the formless attainments? Nevertheless, the Buddha classed it as the said attainment without it being pure. This implies a flexibility the Buddha applied to Jhana according to this Sutta.
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Re: Walking back and forth in Jhana (AN3.63)

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NAD wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:15 pm

Can sounds be heard in the formless attainments? Nevertheless, the Buddha classed it as the said attainment without it being pure. This implies a flexibility the Buddha applied to Jhana according to this Sutta.
Strictly speaking sounds can’t be heard whilst in any Jhana.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Walking back and forth in Jhana (AN3.63)

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Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:36 pm
NAD wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:15 pm

Can sounds be heard in the formless attainments? Nevertheless, the Buddha classed it as the said attainment without it being pure. This implies a flexibility the Buddha applied to Jhana according to this Sutta.
Strictly speaking sounds can’t be heard whilst in any Jhana.
Yes, strictly speaking. Do you think there is any degree of flexibility when in any of the Jhana’s? If not, how do you describe this Vinaya rendering by the Buddha?
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Re: Walking back and forth in Jhana (AN3.63)

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NAD wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:50 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:36 pm
NAD wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:15 pm

Can sounds be heard in the formless attainments? Nevertheless, the Buddha classed it as the said attainment without it being pure. This implies a flexibility the Buddha applied to Jhana according to this Sutta.
Strictly speaking sounds can’t be heard whilst in any Jhana.
Yes, strictly speaking. Do you think there is any degree of flexibility when in any of the Jhana’s? If not, how do you describe this Vinaya rendering by the Buddha?
I think sound can be heard in access to the 1st Jhana, when the Jhana factors and the meditation is weak.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Walking back and forth in Jhana (AN3.63)

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Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:54 pm
NAD wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:50 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:36 pm

Strictly speaking sounds can’t be heard whilst in any Jhana.
Yes, strictly speaking. Do you think there is any degree of flexibility when in any of the Jhana’s? If not, how do you describe this Vinaya rendering by the Buddha?
I think sound can be heard in access to the 1st Jhana, when the Jhana factors and the meditation is weak.
As there is no reference to access concentration in the Suttas, do you think it’s possible then that access concentration is what the Buddha was describing as an impure attainment?

An interesting Sutta describes when the Buddha was beset with perceptions of sensuality (AN 9.41). This would then be deemed an impure concentration, but a Jhana nonetheless.

“ I entered and dwelled in the first jhāna. While I was dwelling in this state, perception and attention accompanied by sensuality occurred in me and I felt it as an affliction. Just as pain might arise for one feeling pleasure only to afflict him, so too, when perception and attention accompanied by sensuality occurred in me, I felt it as an affliction.”
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Re: Walking back and forth in Jhana (AN3.63)

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NAD wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 6:04 pm
As there is no reference to access concentration in the Suttas, do you think it’s possible then that access concentration is what the Buddha was describing as an impure attainment?
I think it was, since I don’t think suttas contain everything. Buddhism is a living meditative tradition too.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Walking back and forth in Jhana (AN3.63)

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Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 6:07 pm
NAD wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 6:04 pm
As there is no reference to access concentration in the Suttas, do you think it’s possible then that access concentration is what the Buddha was describing as an impure attainment?
I think it was, since I don’t think suttas contain everything. Buddhism is a living meditative tradition too.
Thankyou Ceisiwr.
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Re: Walking back and forth in Jhana (AN3.63)

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NAD wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 6:11 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 6:07 pm
NAD wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 6:04 pm
As there is no reference to access concentration in the Suttas, do you think it’s possible then that access concentration is what the Buddha was describing as an impure attainment?
I think it was, since I don’t think suttas contain everything. Buddhism is a living meditative tradition too.
Thankyou Ceisiwr.
You’re welcome
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Walking back and forth in Jhana (AN3.63)

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Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:36 pm Strictly speaking sounds can’t be heard whilst in any Jhana.
Sounds are rupa, and they, along with their diversity is overcomed in base of infinite space.

One can hear them, according to the suttas.
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Re: Walking back and forth in Jhana (AN3.63)

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Alex123 wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:48 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:36 pm Strictly speaking sounds can’t be heard whilst in any Jhana.
Sounds are rupa, and they, along with their diversity is overcomed in base of infinite space.

One can hear them, according to the suttas.
I guess my reading of “sound is a thorn” is different to yours, as is my understanding of rupa.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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