Walking back and forth in Jhana (AN3.63)

[Alex123]

Strictly speaking sounds can’t be heard whilst in any Jhana.

Sounds are rupa, and they, along with their diversity is overcomed in base of infinite space.

One can hear them, according to the suttas.

I guess my reading of “sound is a thorn” is different to yours, as is my understanding of rupa.

My understanding of rupa is that it includes 5 sense objects. If it doesn't, then there is no need for arupa states, as 4 jhanas would be all there is.

[Ceisiwr]

Sounds are rupa, and they, along with their diversity is overcomed in base of infinite space.

One can hear them, according to the suttas.

I guess my reading of “sound is a thorn” is different to yours, as is my understanding of rupa.

My understanding of rupa is that it includes 5 sense objects. If it doesn't, then there is no need for arupa states, as 4 jhanas would be all there is.

Rupa can refer the physical directly as well as a mental representation of the physical, as per MN 28.

“But when internally the mind is intact and external mind-objects come into its range and there is the corresponding conscious engagement, then there is the manifestation of the corresponding section of consciousness.

“The form produced in what has thus come to be is included in the form aggregate affected by clinging.”

The formless are without form. The Jhana are with a form of form and, IMO, without the 5 senses. In other words it’s the abandoning of the mental image of form that marks the transition between the Jhanas and the formless. What the old masters called the nimitta.

[NAD]

I guess my reading of “sound is a thorn” is different to yours, as is my understanding of rupa.

My understanding of rupa is that it includes 5 sense objects. If it doesn't, then there is no need for arupa states, as 4 jhanas would be all there is.

Rupa can refer the physical directly as well as a mental representation of the physical, as per MN 28.

“But when internally the mind is intact and external mind-objects come into its range and there is the corresponding conscious engagement, then there is the manifestation of the corresponding section of consciousness.

“The form produced in what has thus come to be is included in the form aggregate affected by clinging.”

The formless are without form. The Jhana are with a form of form and, IMO, without the 5 senses. In other words it’s the abandoning of the mental image of form that marks the transition between the Jhanas and the formless. What the old masters called the nimitta.

Sorry to jump in here but this is something I’d like to understand and how the arguments affect the understanding of Jhana.

Are you saying that the 5 senses or the body are transcended in Jhana? Then, the only ‘form’ in Jhana is a mental representation, ie Nimmita, of one of the four elements or a form derived from them is present up to 4th Jhana and this form is included in the form aggregate of clinging? This would be the side of the hard-Jhana followers

Whereas the other argument from soft, or Sutta-Jhana followers is that the body or five senses are still present in Jhana upto the 4th before form is transcended in the Arupa Jhanas?

Then I guess this argument is important as both cannot be right for attaining the Jhanic states?

[Alex123]

Rupa can refer the physical directly as well as a mental representation of the physical, as per MN 28.

NO. Rupa has two meanings: either visible object cognized by the eye (cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati viññāṇaṃ, cakkhuviññāṇanteva), or as matter/form. Most of that matter can be seen with eyes.

“But when internally the mind is intact and external mind-objects come into its range and there is the corresponding conscious engagement, then there is the manifestation of the corresponding section of consciousness.

“The form produced in what has thus come to be is included in the form aggregate affected by clinging.”

The 2nd paragraph is not about the 1st paragraph. It is a start of new point.
Form includes 5 sense bases & their objects.

The formless are without form. The Jhana are with a form of form and, IMO, without the 5 senses. In other words it’s the abandoning of the mental image of form that marks the transition between the Jhanas and the formless. What the old masters called the nimitta.

Precisely because jhanas are not arupa, they include form which belongs to Rūpakkhandha.

If we are talking about MENTAL object, it would have been mano, not rupa.


Furthermore, MN28 suggests to me that some sort of subtle derivative form remains in base of infinite space

“Friends, just as when—in dependence on timber, vines, grass, & clay—space is enclosed and is gathered under the term ‘house,’ in the same way, when space is enclosed in dependence on bones, tendons, muscle, & skin, it is gathered under the term, ‘form.’

Here is interesting correlation. Jhanic states are described in terms of kaya (the one with bones, tendons, muscles and skin). It looks like in base of infinite space, one shifts attentions from this kaya to what is between them, - space. With non-attention to limiting physical objects, one perceives boundless, infinite space.

he enters and remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity and mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness, so that there is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness.

"Just as if a man were sitting wrapped from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating his body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Wow, it makes much more sense now. Interesting correlation.

[Ceisiwr]

NO. Rupa has two meanings: either visible object cognized by the eye (cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati viññāṇaṃ, cakkhuviññāṇanteva), or as matter/form. Most of that matter can be seen with eyes.

Or a mental image, as per MN 28. The forms we see in the mind.

The 2nd paragraph is not about the 1st paragraph. It is a start of new point.
Form includes 5 sense bases & their objects.

I find that to be a strange claim. The sutta is talking about how there is a gathering of the aggregates.

Reverends, though the eye is intact internally, so long as exterior sights don’t come into range and there’s no corresponding engagement, there’s no manifestation of the corresponding type of consciousness. Though the eye is intact internally and exterior sights come into range, so long as there’s no corresponding engagement, there’s no manifestation of the corresponding type of consciousness. But when the eye is intact internally and exterior sights come into range and there is corresponding engagement, there is the manifestation of the corresponding type of consciousness.

The form produced in this way is included in the grasping aggregate of form. The feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness produced in this way are each included in the corresponding grasping aggregate.

Here the visible form is included in the form aggregate, the feeling based on that the feeling aggregate and so on. This is repeated for the other senses up to and including the mind base and it's objects

Though the mind is intact internally and exterior thoughts come into range, so long as there’s no corresponding engagement, there’s no manifestation of the corresponding type of consciousness. But when the mind is intact internally and exterior thoughts come into range and there is corresponding engagement, there is the manifestation of the corresponding type of consciousness.

The form produced in this way is included in the grasping aggregate of form.

It is clearly referring to the first paragraph. The forms we sometimes see in the mind, which are representations of the physical world.

Precisely because jhanas are not arupa, they include form which belongs to Rūpakkhandha.

If we are talking about MENTAL object, it would have been mano, not rupa.

Yes, they include form. The mental image of the physical world which one is absorbed into, usually a light but it can take other forms

Furthermore, MN28 suggests to me that some sort of subtle derivative form remains in base of infinite space

I don't see the connection with infinite space.

Here is interesting correlation. Jhanic states are described in terms of kaya (the one with bones, tendons, muscles and skin). It looks like in base of infinite space, one shifts attentions from this kaya to what is between them, - space. With non-attention to limiting physical objects, one perceives boundless, infinite space.

Sounds like mentally visualising the body to me, i.e. a mental representation of form. The 4 elements and body parts practice are practiced in this way. Through visualisations.

[Ceisiwr]

...

[Ceisiwr]

Sorry to jump in here but this is something I’d like to understand and how the arguments affect the understanding of Jhana.

Are you saying that the 5 senses or the body are transcended in Jhana? Then, the only ‘form’ in Jhana is a mental representation, ie Nimmita, of one of the four elements or a form derived from them is present up to 4th Jhana and this form is included in the form aggregate of clinging? This would be the side of the hard-Jhana followers

Yes. The Jhāna are states where there is temporary freedom from the burden of the 5 senses, including the body.

Then I guess this argument is important as both cannot be right for attaining the Jhanic states?

From my perspective those practicing a non-absorbed Jhāna will achieve access concentration, which is to say a pretty good level of attainment. Enough for entering the stream, or once-return. From the perspective of most of those (not all) who put forward a non-absorbed view of Jhāna, transcending the 5 senses is still a good thing to do. It's just what we "hard Jhāna" folks are doing is something in between Jhāna and the formless.

Whereas the other argument from soft, or Sutta-Jhana followers

I have to say I disagree with this phrasing of "hard Jhāna vs sutta Jhāna". Sujato's view of Jhāna is that of "hard Jhāna" and is nearly identical to that of the Visuddhimagga, yet all he relies upon are the early suttas. The same for Venerable Anālayo. When people phrase it like that it's usually just a sly way of framing it so it looks like people like me are proposing something that is later, and so should be treated as being suspiciously non-Buddhist. Not to say you were doing that though.

[Alex123]

Yes. The Jhāna are states where there is temporary freedom from the burden of the 5 senses, including the body.

No, that was a non-Buddhist teaching that didn't lead to Nibbana. Buddha when he was un-awakened tried that and it didn't work. He also tried to restrict his breathing, that didn't work either. The Buddha also ridiculed "don't see, don't hear" teaching .

"That being the case, Uttara, then a blind person will have developed faculties, and a deaf person will have developed faculties, according to the words of the brahman Parasiri. For a blind person does not see forms with the eye, and a deaf person does not hear sounds with the ear."
MN152

Also the anapanasati which leads to 4 jhanas refute the notion of 5 senses ceasing. One is supposed to feel the body, the feelings and mind. The breath is felt in ALL 16 steps. After all, it is anapanasati.

For example the 4th step (which supposedly correspond to 4th Jhana) says:
" [4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.'[3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.'" MN118

If by "bodily fabrication" we take it to mean the breath, and its cessation, then it would be:

He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming breathing.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming breathing.'"

"I thought: 'Suppose I were to become absorbed in the trance of non-breathing.' So I stopped the in-breaths & out-breaths in my nose & mouth. As I did so, there was a loud roaring of winds coming out my earholes, just like the loud roar of winds coming out of a smith's bellows... So I stopped the in-breaths & out-breaths in my nose & mouth & ears. As I did so, extreme forces sliced through my head, just as if a strong man were slicing my head open with a sharp sword... Extreme pains arose in my head, ...
MN36

It seems very strange that He would ask his students to do what he tried and what didn't work for him!

[NotMe]

Yes. The Jhāna are states where there is temporary freedom from the burden of the 5 senses, including the body.

No, that was a non-Buddhist teaching that didn't lead to Nibbana. Buddha when he was un-awakened tried that and it didn't work. He also tried to restrict his breathing, that didn't work either. The Buddha also ridiculed "don't see, don't hear" teaching .

"That being the case, Uttara, then a blind person will have developed faculties, and a deaf person will have developed faculties, according to the words of the brahman Parasiri. For a blind person does not see forms with the eye, and a deaf person does not hear sounds with the ear."
MN152

Also the anapanasati which leads to 4 jhanas refute the notion of 5 senses ceasing. One is supposed to feel the body, the feelings and mind. The breath is felt in ALL 16 steps. After all, it is anapanasati.

For example the 4th step (which supposedly correspond to 4th Jhana) says:
" [4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.'[3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.'" MN118

If by "bodily fabrication" we take it to mean the breath, and its cessation, then it would be:

He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming breathing.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming breathing.'"

"I thought: 'Suppose I were to become absorbed in the trance of non-breathing.' So I stopped the in-breaths & out-breaths in my nose & mouth. As I did so, there was a loud roaring of winds coming out my earholes, just like the loud roar of winds coming out of a smith's bellows... So I stopped the in-breaths & out-breaths in my nose & mouth & ears. As I did so, extreme forces sliced through my head, just as if a strong man were slicing my head open with a sharp sword... Extreme pains arose in my head, ...
MN36

It seems very strange that He would ask his students to do what he tried and what didn't work for him!

edit to add: Alex123!

[Pondera]

The fetter between sound and ear, eye and sights, etc. is the associated sense consciousness of that faculty.

In jhana, we are not lifeless logs. Our faculties do not shut down and we do not become unconscious.

Yes, we are freed from the burden of all the senses and feelings in jhana. But that is in a very conscious way. In what other sense would jhana be pleasurable, if not through conscious experience?

It reminds me of two mendicants. I wish I could find the sutta, but alas. The gist of the sutta is that they are comparing their attainments.

One mendicant recalls that he was in samadhi when an entourage of kings, royalty and elephants came by him in all their hustle and bustle making quite a noise. But as he sat by the roadside he did not notice.

The second mendicant says that he was in samadhi when a lightening and thunder storm began. Lightening scorched his surroundings, and yet he did not notice.

That is the point. You can ask a person in Jhana, what is that sound? And they will reply, “well, I was not paying any attention to perceptions and feelings at all, but now that you mention it, that sound was a crow cawing.”

How is that possible? Well, look. They’re so far removed from the consciousness requisite that connects sense faculty with sense media that they happily ignore the thorns of perception. On the other hand, the intellect is in tact. They are not so stupid that they can’t recollect the nature of the sense perceptions around them.

On another note: jhana is pain relief. Pure and simple. The first jhana provides moderate pain relief. The fourth jhana can numb the entire body. A lot can be said about natural pain relief in the body and the meditative practices which calm body and mind to the point where pain is numbed. To be sure, those effects wear off. And the reality that pain and suffering can only be stemmed in the material world is at the foremost concern of the meditator. It is the goal of the Buddhist to transcend the aggregates and never return to a material or fine material state. They bring little pleasure and much dissatisfaction.

As the fourth jhana stock phrase states:

“With the abandonment of pain and pleasure (as with the earlier disappearance of distress and elation) he enters into and remains in the fourth jhana - neither pain nor pleasure …”

This is the teaching. Start small and learn pain management techniques. Go further and learn very, very potent pain management techniques. Then realize that regardless of how well you can release factors which numb pain, that effect always wears off, and the pain returns. Ie. learn to transcend pain and pleasure (ie. enter the fourth jhana).

Jhana is the equivalent of a harsh opioid addiction in which you are using your body’s hidden endorphins to mask the signs of pains. The benefit being that you cannot get addicted to Jhana. Ultimately, the practice is transcendent. And in that sense - esoteric.

[NotMe]

The fetter between sound and ear, eye and sights, etc. is the associated sense consciousness of that faculty.
…..
In jhana, we are not lifeless logs.
…..
Yes, we are freed
….
That is the point. You can ask a person in Jhana, what is that sound? And they will reply, “well, I was not paying any attention to perceptions and feelings at all, but now that you mention it, that sound was a crow cawing.”

How is that possible?

On another note: jhana is pain relief. Pure and simple. The first jhana provides moderate pain relief.

That reminds me, in training to become a musician a professor told us to go to social events, where everyone stands around in little circles and chats. He said listen to your group, and add to the conversation judiciously. Then, open your ears to the conversation next to you While maintaining your place in the first conversation. Eventually, add judiciously to each. Add a third group, rinse and repeat.

A musician in an Orchestra has to listen to each members contribution and blend to make one voice. Or even just in a duet.

Man you have really grown Pandera! No ‘wobble’ in that post! <grin>
But you say moderate pain relief? I guess you don’t get complete pain relief until the final release, oh I get it!

Metta

[Ceisiwr]

No, that was a non-Buddhist teaching that didn't lead to Nibbana. Buddha when he was un-awakened tried that and it didn't work. He also tried to restrict his breathing, that didn't work either. The Buddha also ridiculed "don't see, don't hear" teaching .

I assume you are referring to the formless here? The Buddha included the formless as an option for those practicing the Dhamma. This calls into question your claim that the Buddha flat out ridiculed meditations that are without the 5 senses. The Buddha ridiculed Uttara, a person who's meditation we know nothing about, because of his claims regarding developing the faculties. You do not develop the faculties in that way. You develop them via sense restraint. Eventually however the development of equanimity based on a diversity of contacts must be given up for the equanimity based on unity, in other words absorption

"Evametaṁ yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya disvā yāyaṁ upekkhā nānattā nānattasitā taṁ abhinivajjetvā, yāyaṁ upekkhā ekattā ekattasitā yattha sabbaso lokāmisūpādānā aparisesā nirujjhanti tamevūpekkhaṁ bhāveti.

Having truly seen this with right understanding [the drawbacks of sensual pleasures], they reject equanimity based on diversity and develop only the equanimity based on unity, where all kinds of grasping to the world’s material delights cease without anything left over." - MN 54

Also the anapanasati which leads to 4 jhanas refute the notion of 5 senses ceasing. One is supposed to feel the body, the feelings and mind. The breath is felt in ALL 16 steps. After all, it is anapanasati.

For example the 4th step (which supposedly correspond to 4th Jhana) says:
" [4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.'[3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.'" MN118

If by "bodily fabrication" we take it to mean the breath, and its cessation, then it would be:

He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming breathing.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming breathing.'"

According to the likes of the Dārṣṭāntika breathing can be experienced whilst in Jhāna (bar the 4th). According to Theravāda it is experienced in access, leading up to absorption where no breathing is experienced. One tranquilises the breath until Jhāna is achieved. The remaining stages are done when out of Jhāna. Either way, Dārṣṭāntika or Theravāda, I don't see how your criticism holds.

"I thought: 'Suppose I were to become absorbed in the trance of non-breathing.' So I stopped the in-breaths & out-breaths in my nose & mouth. As I did so, there was a loud roaring of winds coming out my earholes, just like the loud roar of winds coming out of a smith's bellows... So I stopped the in-breaths & out-breaths in my nose & mouth & ears. As I did so, extreme forces sliced through my head, just as if a strong man were slicing my head open with a sharp sword... Extreme pains arose in my head, ...
MN36
It seems very strange that He would ask his students to do what he tried and what didn't work for him!

No one is recommending breath control exercises.

[Pondera]

The fetter between sound and ear, eye and sights, etc. is the associated sense consciousness of that faculty.
…..
In jhana, we are not lifeless logs.
…..
Yes, we are freed
….
That is the point. You can ask a person in Jhana, what is that sound? And they will reply, “well, I was not paying any attention to perceptions and feelings at all, but now that you mention it, that sound was a crow cawing.”

How is that possible?

On another note: jhana is pain relief. Pure and simple. The first jhana provides moderate pain relief.

That reminds me, in training to become a musician a professor told us to go to social events, where everyone stands around in little circles and chats. He said listen to your group, and add to the conversation judiciously. Then, open your ears to the conversation next to you While maintaining your place in the first conversation. Eventually, add judiciously to each. Add a third group, rinse and repeat.

A musician in an Orchestra has to listen to each members contribution and blend to make one voice. Or even just in a duet.

Man you have really grown Pandera! No ‘wobble’ in that post! <grin>
But you say moderate pain relief? I guess you don’t get complete pain relief until the final release, oh I get it!

Metta

No wobbles for me

My personal opinion is, and certain suttas support this assertion, that Nirodha Samapatti is the complete ending of suffering. What is known as “nibbana with residue” is the state of the Arahant who is familiar with Nirodha Samapatti but cannot dwell there without interruption. Paranibbana is the total wasting away of the fetters and uninterrupted entrance in “the cessation of perception and feeling”. So, yes - the end of suffering is accompanied by “Unbinding”.

(Btw. I’m about 20 years your younger)

[NotMe]

...
(Btw. I’m about 20 years your younger)

Great post again. Yeah, rub it in, I'm old and bent now ~ The absolute worst part is *now* I am looking UP at you, young man! <grin>

You age gracefully sir. In America we'd say you have the Dick Clark aura.

[Alex123]

The fetter between sound and ear, eye and sights, etc. is the associated sense consciousness of that faculty.

So, to remove fetters we need to remove eye consciousness, ear consciousness, etc?

Yes, we are freed from the burden of all the senses and feelings in jhana. But that is in a very conscious way. In what other sense would jhana be pleasurable, if not through conscious experience?

The problem first of all is craving, not sense objects themselves. That is what brahmins tried to do. All their fasting, and breath-holding, helped to slow down the brain so that it would eventually stop. Hence why their meditation resulted in rebirth if not in highest two arupa planes, then in asannasati (mindless/unconscious) deva loka, a terrible waste of time.