Brahmajāla Sutta Jhāna

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Brahmajāla Sutta Jhāna

Post by Coëmgenu »

No juicy Illuminati tidbits for you until you disclose AV. If you won't, you are invited to return to the OP topic, as you've exhausted what you have to offer on terms of alternative semantics.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
ToVincent
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Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: Brahmajāla Sutta Jhāna

Post by ToVincent »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 4:55 pm No juicy Illuminati tidbits for you until you disclose AV. If you won't, you are invited to return to the OP topic, as you've exhausted what you have to offer on terms of alternative semantics.
Again, we hardly say "a bunch of smarts".

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This is not alternative semantics. This is just the semantics of the process leading to the" this is mine".

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O, by the way, I know exactly who you are. I'm dealing with that everyday. No need to tell.
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Last edited by ToVincent on Wed Jun 01, 2022 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Brahmajāla Sutta Jhāna

Post by Coëmgenu »

ToVincent wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 4:51 pmAll my family belongs to it (but me) — and I have a couple of moronic cousins who made it to the academy, because of the real intelligence of their father.

We hardly say "a bunch of smarts".
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:shrug:
Obviously I'm not a Freemason, ToVincent. Why would I promise you "illuminati tidbits" if I were? The Masons are a bunch of codgers who play shuffleboard and euchre. I also come from a Masonic family. We're of the de Montgomeries. Weird trivia, my grandfather was essentially expelled from the Ramses Shrine in Etibicoke for being an alcoholic wreck. The wages of war veterancy, but excuses are excuses.

There's no point in us talking further. Obviously you've no intention of disclosuring your source.

:focus:
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Wed Jun 01, 2022 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
ToVincent
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: Brahmajāla Sutta Jhāna

Post by ToVincent »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 5:11 pm :shrug:
Obviously I'm not a Freemason, ToVincent. Why would I promise you "illuminati tidbits" if I were? The Masons are a bunch of codgers who play shuffleboard and euchre. I also come from a Masonic family. We're of the de Montgomeries. Weird trivia, my grandfather was essentially expelled from the Ramses Shrine in Etibicoke for being an alcoholic wreck. The wages of war veterancy, but excuses are excuses.

There's no point in us talking further. Obviously you've no intention of disclosuring your source.
Freemasons, illuminati, scientology, mafia, blabla, blabla. — same Holding — Mara & C°
I go on none of their domains.
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Last edited by ToVincent on Wed Jun 01, 2022 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
User avatar
Coëmgenu
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Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
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Re: Brahmajāla Sutta Jhāna

Post by Coëmgenu »

:focus:

If you think the Masons control the world or are Satanic or Māric, it just shows you to be a fool who is prone to conspiracy theories.

:focus:
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User019336
Posts: 188
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:24 am

Re: Brahmajāla Sutta Jhāna

Post by User019336 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 4:03 pm Are you going to disclose the AV source and give us the citation or not?
Just google it https://kosha.sanskrit.today/word/en/co ... t+with/iso

https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/samgam
ToVincent
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Re: Brahmajāla Sutta Jhāna

Post by ToVincent »

User019336 wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 5:17 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 4:03 pm Are you going to disclose the AV source and give us the citation or not?
Just google it https://kosha.sanskrit.today/word/en/co ... t+with/iso

https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/samgam
Atharva Veda.
https://sanskrit.inria.fr/MW/275.html#sa.mgam
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Brahmajāla Sutta Jhāna

Post by Coëmgenu »

A Vedic Sanskrit example, and one with anomalous archaic Sanskrit to boot. I could have guessed. Either way, we'll just go back to topic.

:focus:
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
ToVincent
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: Brahmajāla Sutta Jhāna

Post by ToVincent »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 5:16 pm :focus:

If you think the Masons control the world or are Satanic or Māric, it just shows you to be a fool who is prone to conspiracy theories.

:focus:
You derailed that thread.

_____

And Mara as the master of the world, is buddha's concept.
No conspiracy attached.
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Last edited by ToVincent on Wed Jun 01, 2022 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8151
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Brahmajāla Sutta Jhāna

Post by Coëmgenu »

You brought up Masonry, not I, when you assumed I was talking about the Masons.

:focus:
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Wed Jun 01, 2022 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
ToVincent
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: Brahmajāla Sutta Jhāna

Post by ToVincent »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 5:23 pm A Vedic Sanskrit example, and one with anomalous archaic Sanskrit to boot. I could have guessed. Either way, we'll just go back to topic.

:focus:
Why archaic, why anomalous.
Still derailing.

_____

You started derailing that thread page 1:
viewtopic.php?p=678669#p678669
with your misunderstanding of the two fallacies quoted.
The former had already been covered.

_____

And when you write ambiguously "Pali can be related to Sanskrit" - the scholars (some of which you quote) , say "Pali is closely related to Sanskrit".
That's a huge nuance.
So no, you never said "Pali is closely related to Sanskrit" - Ever - that where the lie is.

_____

I'm off with you.
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Last edited by ToVincent on Wed Jun 01, 2022 5:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8151
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Brahmajāla Sutta Jhāna

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 8:36 pmIt's interesting because according to the Dharmaguptakas Abhidharma text, the Śāriputrābhidharma, the kāmā are wishes for things, rather than being the things wished for. I think this shows there was some confusion amongst ancient masters, of different schools, regarding if kāmā were external desired things or simply the wish for things.
Another way to consider this difference is on terms of the difference in pedagogy as to how one supposedly eliminates these "wishes" for external things. It is through a fundamentally different modality of experience of these things, such as in non-Theravādin "embodied jhāna" that is sometimes called "jhāna-light" by detractors, that the yogin eliminates wishes for the 5 kāmaguṇas; or is this "wishing" eliminated via an experience of something utterly foreign to the objects of the kāmaguṇas and not a different modality of them: one that is so foreign that the normal experience of "external things" is basically absent? That's another way we can frame this: on terms of the method by which the "wishing" is eliminated, versus on terms of confusion with regards to what a "jhāna" even is.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User019336
Posts: 188
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:24 am

Re: Brahmajāla Sutta Jhāna

Post by User019336 »

A person can be presented with exquisite or disagreeable food and resolve on eating it.

A person with a passion for his resolve will be either elated or depressed depending on what food he gets.

A person without passion for his resolve will merely resolve on eating, maintaing equamimity, whether the food is good or not.

Therefore anger & sensual craving are removed together attaining Anagami.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Brahmajāla Sutta Jhāna

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 5:43 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 8:36 pmIt's interesting because according to the Dharmaguptakas Abhidharma text, the Śāriputrābhidharma, the kāmā are wishes for things, rather than being the things wished for. I think this shows there was some confusion amongst ancient masters, of different schools, regarding if kāmā were external desired things or simply the wish for things.
Another way to consider this difference is on terms of the difference in pedagogy as to how one supposedly eliminates these "wishes" for external things. It is through a fundamentally different modality of experience of these things, such as in non-Theravādin "embodied jhāna" that is sometimes called "jhāna-light" by detractors, that the yogin eliminates wishes for the 5 kāmaguṇas; or is this "wishing" eliminated via an experience of something utterly foreign to the objects of the kāmaguṇas and not a different modality of them: one that is so foreign that the normal experience of "external things" is basically absent? That's another way we can frame this: on terms of the method by which the "wishing" is eliminated, versus on terms of confusion with regards to what a "jhāna" even is.
I don't think it's the blissful bodily experience that eliminates the desire for sensual pleasures in the old non-absorbed teachings. Rather vitakka-vicāra seem to play that role, even for all of the hindrances it seems at times
“« [51] What is reasoning (vitarka)? It is mental debating (manojalpa) which seeks, deriving from volition (cetana) or intellect (prajiia), and it is mental coarseness (cittasyaiidarikata).

« [52] What is deliberation (vicara)? It is mental debating which reflects (pratyaveksaka), deriving from volition (cetana) and intellect (prajna), and it is mental subtlety (cittasyasuksmata). The function of both consists of supplying a basis to states of ease or uneasiness (sparsasparsavihara).

« Moreover, the function of favourable things {kusala dharma) consists of eliminating whatever is hostile {uipaksa) to them, and the function of the major and minor defilements (klesopaklesa) consists of counteracting their opposites (pratipaksa).”

- Abhidharma-samuccaya

“In the first quietened-thought, the object-of-link is acquired through investigation and analysis, samādhi is its dependency, joy is the state experienced, and pleasure is the removal of gross heaviness

Question: Why are there investigation and analysis in the first quietened thought?

Answer: Through them, one can arouse disgust with the sensual desire realm and enter first quietened thought. In addition, in first quietened thought, one is still not able to observe the faults of investigation and analysis”

- Yogācārabhūmi-Śāstra
Both of those from from a "bodily experience" perspective. The following is the Abhidharma section of the Mahāprajñāpāramitā-Śāstra. I don't think bodily experience is held in mind there, but the role of vitakka-vicāra is similar
Answer. – By being based on the gates of absorption such as the meditation on the disgusting (aśubhabhāvana) and mindfulness of breathing (ānāpānasmṛti), etc. Thus, it is said in the explanatory stanzas of the Tch’an king (Dhyānasūtra):

Avoiding desires and bad dharmas
A person enters into the first dhyāna,
Furnished with examination (savitarka) and judgment (savicāra),
Coming from detachment (vivekaja), which is joy (prīti) and happiness (sukha).

Avoiding the flames of lust,
He is endowed with clear cool absorption.
Happy like a person who, tormented by the heat,
Enters into a cold pool.

As in the poor man who has found a treasure,
Vitarka of a great joyfulness moves his mind.
He analyses it: this is vicāra.
This is how he enters the first dhyāna.

According to the Buddha’s definition: “Having avoided desires and the bad dharmas, the bhikṣu enters into the first, furnished with examination, furnished with judgment, coming from detachment, which is joy and happiness.” (Dhyānasūtra, l.c.: Viviktaṃ kāmair viviktaṃ pāpakair akuśalair dharmaiḥ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ prītisukhaṃ prathamaṃ dhymanam upasaṃpadya viharati).

‘Desires’ (kāma) are the five sense objects (pañca kāmaguṇa), colours (rūpa), etc., to which one becomes attached. By means of reflection and analysis, these desires are condemned, as has been said above.

The ‘wicked bad dharmas’ (pāpaka, akuśaladharma) are the five obstructions (pañca nīvaraṇa), greed (kāmacchanda), etc. By becoming detached from these two categories, of which the one is external (bāhya) and the other internal (ādhyātmika), the first dhyāna is acquired.

The [five] characteristics of the first dhyāna are: examination (vitarka), judgment (vicāra), joy (prīti), happiness (sukha) and one-pointedness of the mind (cittaikāgrata).

It is ‘savitarka and savicāra’: by acquiring the good dharmas (kuśaladharma) and the qualities (guṇa) not previously acquired, in the first dhyāna the mind experiences great fear. When [a person] who has ceaselessly been burned by the fires of desire attains the first dhyāna, it is as if he were entering a pool of cold water. Or else he is like a poor man (daridra) who suddenly finds a treasure: the ascetic, who has meditated and analysed the disadvantages of kāmadhātu and who sees the importance of the benefits and qualities of the first dhyāna, feels great joy (prīti): this is why it is called savitarka and savicāra.
Personally I agree that there are grosser and more subtle hindrances. I think the gross hindrances are sensual desire and ill-will and need to be tackled before any serious meditation aimed at Jhāna. This comes back to sense-restraint but also mindfulness of the drawbacks of sensual pleasures, loving-kindness, foulness and so on. Let's say all this has been covered though and the meditator sits down to meditate, which I think is ideally mindfulness of breathing. The remaining hindrances then are subtle sensual desire, subtle ill-will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & worry and doubt. Worry really shouldn't be there if one's virtue is solid, so it's now narrowed down to subtle sensual desire, subtle ill-ill, sloth & torpor, restlessness and doubt. Doubt is combated by attention to dhamma-vicaya, sloth & torpor by energy whilst restlessness by applied and sustained thought (vitakka-vicāra) and one-pointedness of mind. As for subtle sensual desire or ill-will, mindfulness that they are there comes into play, analysis that they are unwholesome comes next followed by energy to remove them.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Brahmajāla Sutta Jhāna

Post by Coëmgenu »

When I said "fundamentally different modality of experience," I was referring to the experience of the meditation object, an item from the phenomenal world experienced with the eyes and mind (and/or ears and/or body in some traditions), that is experienced in the luminous modality of rūpa characteristic of the rūpadhātu, versus a mental nimitta experienced only through the mind that is "something utterly foreign to the objects of the kāmaguṇas." Does that clear up what I meant?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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