Sasha_A wrote: ↑Wed Jun 08, 2022 5:59 pmSo, in my opinion, what was said in SN56.30, can only be true and not be in direct contradiction with many other suttas in case of arahant, because only arahant "truly arrived at this Dhamma" by "discerning stress, the origination of stress, the cessation of stress, and the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress".
Sotopanna is still a discipline, there is still something, that he or she do not understand about the four noble truth - and that's why sotopanna is still not an arahant in the first place.
This ignores a few important issues:
1. diṭṭhi-sampanna (consummate in/endowed with view) is an epiphet for a sotapañña.
SN 13.1:
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery. Then the Blessed One, picking up a little bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monks, “What do you think, monks? Which is greater: the little bit of dust I have picked up with the tip of my fingernail, or the great earth?”
“The great earth is far greater, lord. The little bit of dust the Blessed One has picked up with the tip of his fingernail is next to nothing. It’s not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth—this little bit of dust the Blessed One has picked up with the tip of his fingernail—when compared with the great earth.”
“In the same way, monks, for a disciple of the noble ones who is consummate in view, an individual who has broken through (to stream-entry), the suffering & stress totally ended & extinguished is far greater. That which remains in the state of having at most seven remaining lifetimes is next to nothing: It’s not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth, when compared with the previous mass of suffering. That’s how great the benefit is of breaking through to the Dhamma, monks. That’s how great the benefit is of obtaining the Dhamma eye.”
(transl. Ven. Thānissaro Bhikkhu,
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN13_1.html)
2. There are numerous suttas showing that a sotapañña has right view, i.e. knowledge in terms of the 4 noble truths.
SN 55.5:
“Sāriputta, ‘The stream, the stream’: Thus it is said. And what, Sāriputta, is the stream?”
“This noble eightfold path, lord, is the stream: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.”
“Excellent, Sariputta! Excellent! This noble eightfold path—right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration—is the stream.
“Sāriputta, ‘A streamwinner, a streamwinner’: Thus it is said. And what, Sāriputta, is a streamwinner?”
“Anyone endowed with this noble eightfold path, lord, is a streamwinner.”
“Excellent, Sariputta! Excellent! Anyone endowed with this noble eightfold path [including right view!] is a streamwinner.”
(transl. Ven. Thānissaro Bhikkhu,
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN55_5.html)
SN 45.8:
“And what, monks, is right view? Knowledge with regard to [or: in terms of] stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the stopping of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the stopping of stress: This, monks, is called right view.”
(transl. Ven. Thānissaro Bhikkhu,
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN45_8.html)
The aforementioned SN 48.53:
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Kosambī at Ghosita’s monastery. There he addressed the monks, “Monks, is there a manner of reckoning whereby a monk who is a learner [i.e., a person who has attained at least stream-entry, but has not yet reached arahantship], standing at the level of a learner, can discern that ‘I am a learner,’ and whereby a monk who is an adept [i.e., an arahant], standing at the level of an adept, can discern that ‘I am an adept’?” [...]
The Blessed One said, “There is a manner of reckoning whereby a monk who is a learner, standing at the level of a learner, can discern that ‘I am a learner,’ and whereby a monk who is an adept, standing at the level of an adept, can discern that ‘I am an adept.’
“And what is the manner of reckoning whereby a monk who is a learner, standing at the level of a learner, can discern that ‘I am a learner’? There is the case where a monk is a learner. He discerns, as it has come to be, that ‘This is stress… This is the origination of stress… This is the cessation of stress… This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.’ This is a manner of reckoning whereby a monk who is a learner, standing at the level of a learner, can discern that ‘I am a learner.’
[...]
(transl. Ven. Thānissaro Bhikkhu,
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN48_53.html)
So, if anything, MN 9 would be the outlier that contradicts the other suttas when adopting your interpretation of it, i.e. that only an arahant has right view and knowledge in terms of the 4 noble truths.
Now, MN 9 and the passage you quoted of it are very interesting.
Ven. Bhikkhu Anālayo writes in BUDDHIST STUDIES REVIEW, Volume 22, Part 1, page 5 (2005):
At times the absence of a particular statement or passage in the Chinese version helps to highlight that its occurrence in the Pali version does not fit the context very well. Such a case occurs in the Sammādiṭṭhi Sutta [MN 9], a discourse expounding various ways of having right view. This discourse has parallels in the Madhyama Āgama, the Saṃyukta Āgama and in a Sanskrit fragment. The Pali version of this discourse concludes each exposition of how to have right view by bringing up the abandoning of the underlying tendencies to lust, irritation, and the conceited view ‘I am’, together with overcoming ignorance and making an end of dukkha. This passage does not occur at all in the Chinese and Sanskrit versions. A closer consideration shows this statement to be out of context, since to overcome ignorance and to make an end of dukkha represent full awakening [i.e. arahatta], whereas the topic of having right view is concerned with stream-entry. The Pali discourse follows each reference to overcoming ignorance and making an end of dukkha by declaring that ‘to that extent’ (ettāvatā) a noble disciple is endowed with right view and has gained perfect confidence in the teaching. Yet such right view and perfect confidence are already gained with stream-entry, at which stage the underlying tendencies are far from being abandoned, ignorance has not yet been fully overcome and the making an end of dukkha is still to be accomplished. Hence the expression ‘to that extent’ does not tally with the content of the passage to which it refers. This suggests that the Chinese and Sanskrit versions of this discourse, which do not have this passage at all, present a more convincing reading in this instance.
Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi renders the "ettāvatā pi kho" as "in that way, too" in the second refrain in each section, which I think resolves these apparent contradictions; it is not only an arahant that has right view, but the arahant has also arrived at right view (obviously).
Section on the 4 noble truths in MN 9:
[1st refrain:]
“When, friends, a noble disciple understands suffering, the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the way leading to the cessation of suffering, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has unwavering confidence in the Dhamma and has arrived at this true Dhamma.” [-> This would then refer to a sotapañña (~arahant).]
[...]
[2nd refrain:]
“When a noble disciple has thus understood suffering, the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the way leading to the cessation of suffering, he entirely abandons the underlying tendency to lust, he abolishes the underlying tendency to aversion, he extirpates the underlying tendency to the view and conceit ‘I am,’ and by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge he here and now makes an end of suffering. [-> This would be referring to the arahant, specifically.] In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view whose view is straight, who has unwavering confidence in the Dhamma and has arrived at this true Dhamma.”
(transl. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi,
https://suttacentral.net/mn9/en/bodhi?r ... ight=false)
.....
With metta.
through experience. He knows what he’s saying.
