Path of "Right Endurance" of Ven. Nyanamoli (from Hillside Hermitage) incompatible with the Noble Eightfold Path

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Lucilius
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Path of "Right Endurance" of Ven. Nyanamoli (from Hillside Hermitage) incompatible with the Noble Eightfold Path

Post by Lucilius »

Ven. Nyanamolis "path of 'right endurance'" seems to be against right effort and therefore incompatible with the noble eightfold path (as laid out in the suttas).

Excerpt from "The Right Endurance" from Ven. Nyanamolis book "Dhamma Within Reach - A Guide to Endurance, Patience and Wisdom" (download: https://www.hillsidehermitage.org/new-book/):
Q: What is the middle way between asceticism and sensual indulgence? Is it the practice of enduring (neither giving in to or denying) thoughts?

Nyanamoli: That’s the way to cultivate the middle way.
Acting out of sensual thoughts, accepting them without reflection, not enduring them with sense restraint—that is what Sensuality is. [...]
Once you realize that acting out of sensual thoughts is bad, you will probably naturally jump to the conclusion that you mustn’t have those thoughts to begin with. That you must get rid of them and prevent them from manifesting. That is how you go to the other extreme: denial of thoughts.
You need to differentiate between “withstanding arisen thoughts” (enduring) and trying to “get rid of the presence of arisen thoughts” (denying).
The latter way is equally ignoble to the habitual giving in to sensual thoughts. That way can take you into that other extreme of self-mortification and extreme denials.
Physical endurance is hard, but it’s not as hard as enduring a presence of a sensual thought without acting out of it or trying to deny its presence.
[...] Allowing thoughts to endure without acting out of them, would be the beginning of the Middle Way.
From Hillside Hermitages video "Escape from the Body":
{15:46} [Nyanamoli:] The mind of lust is there, that needs to be endured. So the mind of lust is there, I must not act out of it. And if you're jumping into practice of asubha [i.e. the contemplation of the unattractiveness of the body in order to get rid of that lust] immidiately, you're acting out of it. You're not allowing it to be for what it is, that is the phenomenon of lust, the mind affected with lust; you're trying to get rid of it.
{16:05} And which is exactly the motion of sensuality. Lust is present, you jump into the sensuality to get rid of that painful
'itch'.
Compare this to:

MN 2: which āsava are to be abandoned by enduring/tolerating? which ones are to be abandoned by destroying/removing?

SN 45.8:
And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen.
(ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen.
(iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen. This, monks, is called right effort.
(transl. Ven. Thānissaro Bhikkhu, https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN45_8.html)

And how can one remove unskillful thoughts such as sensual desire?
MN 20 shows 5 ways to get rid of unskillful thoughts; some of which are what Ven. Nyanamoli would call "denying" thoughts (e.g. replacing it with another, skillful thought)
(ironically, he even quotes the sutta in the article..).
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Re: Path of "Right Endurance" of Ven. Nyanamoli (from Hillside Hermitage) incompatible with the Noble Eightfold Path

Post by robertk »

Or it might align with this sutta:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place."[1]

"But how, dear sir, did you cross over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place?"

"When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place.
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Re: Path of "Right Endurance" of Ven. Nyanamoli (from Hillside Hermitage) incompatible with the Noble Eightfold Path

Post by Lucilius »

robertk wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 4:04 pm "I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place."
I don't find your argument very compelling, I must say, because:

1) your argument uses a very cryptic/ambigous sutta-passage, that could have many meanings or interpretations.
Sure, one could interpret it in the way you did, however one could come up with other interpretations, which are equally plausible.
One such interpretation might be that the Buddha is in, lets say, the 4th jhāna (in the night of his awakening). He then "crossed over the flood" "without pushing forward" to the dimension of infinitude of space or higher, "without staying in place" i.e. staying in the 4th jhāna.
I'm not saying that this interpretation is necessarily correct, just, that this is a very ambigous passage, which allows many interpretations.

2) you use that one interpretation that fits your narrative to argue against/discredit sutta-passages that are very clear, straightforward and non-ambigous, such as MN 2:
[6] “And what are the effluents to be abandoned by destroying? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, doesn’t tolerate [or: "endure", "allow to persist"] an arisen thought of sensuality. He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, & wipes it out of existence.

“Reflecting appropriately, he doesn’t tolerate an arisen thought of ill will…

“Reflecting appropriately, he doesn’t tolerate an arisen thought of harmfulness…

“Reflecting appropriately, he doesn’t tolerate arisen evil, unskillful qualities. He abandons them, destroys them, dispels them, & wipes them out of existence. The effluents, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to destroy these things do not arise for him when he destroys them. These are called the effluents to be abandoned by destroying.
(transl. Ven Thānissaro Bhikkhu, https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN2.html)

3) As the "4 great standards" in DN 16 point out, internal consistency is key when deciding whether to accept a teaching one has heard as saddhamma or whether to reject it.
This means that if SN 1.1 really had only one interpretation, that being yours, and would thus be contradicting other suttas (MN 19, SN 48.5 etc.) then we would have to reject SN 1.1.
Luckily, there are other interpretations that are consistent with the other parts of the canon, which means that we should only reject that inconsistent interpretation, or at least, there is no compelling reason to adopt it.
Adopting your interpretation of SN 1.1 and using it to argue against or ignore other suttas (which are contradicting that interpretation), would just be cherry-picking what fits ones narrative.
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Re: Path of "Right Endurance" of Ven. Nyanamoli (from Hillside Hermitage) incompatible with the Noble Eightfold Path

Post by SDC »

There is a difference between a dhamma (mental object/thought/mental image) and vitakka of MN 20, which is more of the direction of thought being either wholesome or unwholesome, or dangerous and unworthy.

For instance, if you had a thought about harming someone, it would be unwholesome to entertain the signs that contributed to greed, hate or delusion. That image of you harming someone is not vitakka. Picking up the sign of unwholesome or wholesome in regard to that thought is vitakka. It is movement on account of perception.

Ajahn Nyanamoli seems to be advocating for not overly denying or overly accepting the image, and even if it comes again and again, not to entertain the signs that would bend the mind towards unwholesome, and not to entertain dealing with the content directly. As MN 20 states, don’t go in the direction of unwholesome.
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Re: Path of "Right Endurance" of Ven. Nyanamoli (from Hillside Hermitage) incompatible with the Noble Eightfold Path

Post by Lucilius »

I'm not sure what your argument is..

I would be grateful if you could clarify it a bit more..
SDC wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:24 pm There is a difference between a dhamma (mental object/thought/mental image) and vitakka of MN 20, which is more of the direction of thought being either wholesome or unwholesome, or dangerous and unworthy.
you mean nimitta?? or sañña? or something else..? with "dhamma", "mental image"?
(mental) image = nimitta?
For instance, if you had a thought about harming someone [=akusala vitakka?], it would be unwholesome to entertain the signs [e.g. memories of injustice done to oneself by that person] that contributed to [gave rise to?] greed, hate [in this case: that vitakka of harming that someone as an act of vengeance] or delusion [in the first place?].
I filled in some thoughts by myself to make sense of it.. I hope it doesn't change the meaning of what you were intending to say.
That image [nimitta??] of you harming someone is not vitakka. Picking up the sign [nimitta?] of unwholesome or wholesome in regard to that thought is vitakka. It is movement on account of perception.
The thought you harming someone is a akusala vitakka, not a nimitta (if thats what you wanted to say??); sure, the original nimitta that lead to the arising of that akusala vitakka (e.g. memory of injustice) is not the akusala vitakka itself..
Ajahn Nyanamoli seems to be advocating for not overly denying or overly accepting the image [nimitta??], and even if it comes again and again, not to entertain the signs [=images??] that would bend the mind towards unwholesome, and not to entertain dealing with the content [vitakka??] directly. As MN 20 states, don’t go in the direction of unwholesome.
....As I understand the teaching of Ven. Nyanamoli, one should not try to destroy or abandon the {thoughts of desire (the example given in the video)/thoughts of harming someone} = akusala vitakka by e.g. replacing the nimitta {attractiveness of body/memories of injustice} with the nimitta {unattractiveness of body (asubha)/memories of the good things that person has also done} as that would be "acting out of it (it = the akusala vitakka of {sensual desire/thought of doing harm} and the unpleasant 'pressure' that it entails)". As he says in the video, don't jump into the practice of asubha (which would be changing the nimitta).
This, of course, is contradicting the instruction to do exactly that (replace the nimitta) in MN 20.

...As I said, I'm not really sure what your argument is..?
That Ven. Nyanamoli is actually saying, "don't deal with the unskillful thought (akusala vitakka) directly, but change or ignore/don't pay attention to the nimitta that gives rise to the akusala vitakka"?

Is that what you were trying to say??
But then again, he says, "don't jump into the practice of asubha" to get rid of the unskillful thought (vitakka?) of lust, because that itself is a type of sensuality according to him(?)

With metta.
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Re: Path of "Right Endurance" of Ven. Nyanamoli (from Hillside Hermitage) incompatible with the Noble Eightfold Path

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Lucilius,
Lucilius wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 3:23 pm
Nyanamoli wrote: Once you realize that acting out of sensual thoughts is bad, you will probably naturally jump to the conclusion that you mustn’t have those thoughts to begin with. That you must get rid of them and prevent them from manifesting. That is how you go to the other extreme: denial of thoughts.
Buddha wrote:And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen.
(ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen.
(iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen. This, monks, is called right effort.
I don't see a contradiction. I think it comes down to a matter of how to implement the instructions in the suttta. What will be most effective to achieve that abandoning, non-arising, etc? That's something to investigate. Does it work to immediately "stamp out" the thought? Or does it work better to investigate it, see it fade away, and have a better understanding of how to to cultivate oneself so those thoughts don't arise in the future?

The long-term achievement of abandoning and non-arising is the message I get from this, and other, suttas. I think Ven Nyanamoli is pointing out that a whac-a-mole approach [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whac-A-Mole] is usually not particularly useful.

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Re: Path of "Right Endurance" of Ven. Nyanamoli (from Hillside Hermitage) incompatible with the Noble Eightfold Path

Post by Sasha_A »

Lucilius wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 3:23 pm Ven. Nyanamolis "path of 'right endurance'" seems to be against right effort...
Without the endurance he is talking about it is impossible to even understand not only what the right effort is, but what is dukkha really is - impossible to get the right view. It's about the very basis and the beginning of the development of the Noble Eightfold Path, it's about the difference between managing dukkha and uprooting dukkha.

From the same chapter of the book:
When the Buddha spoke about “getting rid” of the sensual thoughts, he explained how that is done: by not welcoming, not delighting, enduring them and not acting out. That’s how those thoughts go away. Leave you alone, so to speak. Thus, you have “got rid” of them.

It’s important for people to recognize that acceptance or denial of one’s states of mind is where the problem is. Not in the states of mind arising in themselves. And when the Suttas talk about the two ignoble ways of “sensual indulgence” and “self mortification”, this is where those ways are rooted. The casual practitioner nowadays might be too quick to dismiss these two “extremes” by believing they are these coarse forms of misconduct and self-torture. But they are not. Sure, they can be, but they are rooted at a much more subtle level. The level of simply saying “yes” to the joy of one’s desire, or trying to deny the appearance of it. It’s crucial to regard it as subtle as this, because only then the true subtlety of the Middle Way can become apparent. (Middle Way that is also quickly conflated and misconceived as a mere practice of moderation in regard to everything, including sensuality).

Enduring patiently allows for wisdom. The Right discernment begins by allowing thoughts to endure without welcoming, denying or ignoring them. Thoughts manifest on their own. That’s the fundamental point. Thinking that you can deny them already implies a wrong view, whereby you think that you are in charge of those thoughts, or that you are responsible for their arising. What you are responsible for is your acceptance of them. You are responsible for delighting and acting out of them.

If you manage to allow them to endure, and not act out of the pressure these thoughts put on you, you will then naturally try to get rid of them. Why? Because allowing them to endure, without acting out, is very unpleasant. That’s why “self-mortification” is a natural response by one who has tried to endure sensuality: doubling down and trying to take control of that unpleasantness by intentionally increasing it.

It is easier to either act towards sensuality or deny it. Patiently enduring it, without acting out or denying it, is the hardest thing of all. The Middle Way is the hardest thing of all. It’s much easier to get angry or lustful at things, and just to say yes or no, act and express yourself quickly. Rather than to deal with the pressurizing thought and enduring it for as long as it wants to be there.

If you want to deal with the pain of an enduring thought, when you are not acting out of it, you need to allow it to endure so that you can understand it. The problem is not that unwholesome thoughts are manifesting. The problem is in that you cannot endure their presence. It pressures you. So you go either towards or against them. Either way, you are affirming the grip that such thoughts have over you. You are feeding it.
It is merely dukkha that comes into being, dukkha that stands and disappears,
Nothing apart from dukkha comes into being, nothing other than dukkha ceases.
- SN5.10
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Re: Path of "Right Endurance" of Ven. Nyanamoli (from Hillside Hermitage) incompatible with the Noble Eightfold Path

Post by Lucilius »

mikenz66 wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:44 pm I don't see a contradiction. I think it comes down to a matter of how to implement the instructions in the suttta. What will be most effective to achieve that abandoning, non-arising, etc? That's something to investigate. Does it work to immediately "stamp out" the thought? Or does it work better to investigate it, see it fade away, and have a better understanding of how to to cultivate oneself so those thoughts don't arise in the future?
The goal is to abandon these unskillful thoughts nevertheless.
You shouldn't tolerate them, or just "endure" them, without trying to do something about it.
Whether it is effective to just look at them/investigate them with equanimity, or whether one "exerts a fabrication", that is something we have to find out case by case, by trying different approaches and looking what works to abandon these thoughts.
Nevertheless, both approaches are trying to do something about the unskillful thoughts. There is the skillful desire of right effort to abandon unskillful thoughts.
It's not just letting them be there in the mind and waiting for them to leave.

The important part is, we have to try to abandon them, it doesn't matter in what way we do so. It should be effective, thats it..

As the Buddha says in MN 101, there are unskillful thoughts that you can abandon only by "exerting a fabrication" (≈actively doing something about it -> see approaches in MN 20):
And how is striving fruitful, how is exertion fruitful? There is the case where a monk, when not loaded down, does not load himself down with pain, nor does he reject pleasure that accords with the Dhamma, although he is not infatuated on that pleasure. He discerns that ‘When I exert a fabrication against this cause of stress, then from the fabrication of exertion there is dispassion. When I look on with equanimity at that cause of stress, then from the development of equanimity there is dispassion.’ So he exerts a fabrication against the cause of stress for which dispassion comes from the fabrication of exertion, and develops equanimity with regard to the cause of stress for which dispassion comes from the development of equanimity. Thus the stress coming from the cause of stress where there is dispassion from the fabrication of exertion is exhausted, and the stress coming from the cause of stress where there is dispassion from the development of equanimity is exhausted.
(transl. Ven. Thānissaro Bhikkhu, https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN101.html
)

We shouldn't, however, tolerate unskillful thoughts, or letting them "endure", or allow them to persist, as Ven. Nyanamoli says.
The problem is that if you simply watch the unskillful thought with "correct sense restraint", by "not acting out of it", with equanimity, and if it doesn't subside, Ven. Nyanamoli isn't giving/permitting you any other tools (e.g. "jumping into 'asubha practice'") other than that.

He is saying that you shouldn't actively try to get rid of it.
By "enduring" it, it will go away on it's own (hopefully... sometime..). But you shouldn't actively try to get rid of it according to him (which contradicts the suttas mentioned in my original post). Even when just looking at unskillful thoughts with equanimity, the motivation is still to get rid of them, but this motivation would count as sensuality when going by Ven. Nyanamolis re-definition of sensuality (i.e. he thinks trying to get rid of sensuality = part of sensuality/(sensual) desire; therefore you can never abandon sensuality/sensual desire this way).
I think Ven Nyanamoli is pointing out that a whac-a-mole approach [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whac-A-Mole] is usually not particularly useful.
One can learn a lot from stopping unskillful thoughts in their tracks.. how they arise (or: how we make them arise/how we fabricate them), what are its reasonings, why are we "going for" these thoughts.. etc.
Just as you learn more from an experiment where you actively manipulate things, rather than just observing..

With Metta.
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Re: Path of "Right Endurance" of Ven. Nyanamoli (from Hillside Hermitage) incompatible with the Noble Eightfold Path

Post by Joe.c »

Lucilius wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 3:23 pm Ven. Nyanamolis "path of 'right endurance'" seems to be against right effort and therefore incompatible with the noble eightfold path (as laid out in the suttas).
Just briefly look at the excerpt. Look like you are right.

For a trainer, one needs to selectively choose kind of thoughts in your mind. If a bad thiught arise, one needs to get rid of it asap. Otherwise it will manifest to become dukkha. Enduring bad thoughts will lead to bad results most of the time.

Once the mind is calm, then one needs to reflect on why the bad thoughts arise. Then from this reflection a wisdom for good thoughts can arise so bad thoughts can't arise anymore.

But this practice take a long time to master. One needs to have right view and good morality to begin with.
Nyanamoli: That’s the way to cultivate the middle way.
Acting out of sensual thoughts, accepting them without reflection, not enduring them with sense restraint—that is what Sensuality is. [...]
Once you realize that acting out of sensual thoughts is bad, you will probably naturally jump to the conclusion that you mustn’t have those thoughts to begin with. That you must get rid of them and prevent them from manifesting. That is how you go to the other extreme: denial of thoughts.
The bold statement is incorrect.

One should get rid of them asap and switch to good thoughts asap & maintain good thoughts/behavior for 24/7. This is right effort (samma vayama). When one maintain good behavior 24/7, eventually bad behaviors will be abandoned due to wisdom.

Nice quote on MN 20 and MN 2.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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Re: Path of "Right Endurance" of Ven. Nyanamoli (from Hillside Hermitage) incompatible with the Noble Eightfold Path

Post by Sasha_A »

Small but it seems an important additional remark: the "thought" here is the same as a smell or a view - it's a perception, object of the mind, and this is not "thinking" as an intentional activity of the mind, kamma. "Acting out of the thought" - this is intentional activity on account of the "thought". The right effort is about actions, not perceptions.
It is merely dukkha that comes into being, dukkha that stands and disappears,
Nothing apart from dukkha comes into being, nothing other than dukkha ceases.
- SN5.10
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Re: Path of "Right Endurance" of Ven. Nyanamoli (from Hillside Hermitage) incompatible with the Noble Eightfold Path

Post by mikenz66 »

Lucilius wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:37 pm The goal is to abandon these unskillful thoughts nevertheless.
You shouldn't tolerate them, or just "endure" them, without trying to do something about it.
Whether it is effective to just look at them/investigate them with equanimity, or whether one "exerts a fabrication", that is something we have to find out case by case, by trying different approaches and looking what works to abandon these thoughts.
Nevertheless, both approaches are trying to do something about the unskillful thoughts. There is the skillful desire of right effort to abandon unskillful thoughts.
It's not just letting them be there in the mind and waiting for them to leave.

The important part is, we have to try to abandon them, it doesn't matter in what way we do so. It should be effective, thats it..
Of course. The problem is that some seems to think that "abandoning" can be best achieved by denying and pushing away. That's what Ven NN is talking about.

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Re: Path of "Right Endurance" of Ven. Nyanamoli (from Hillside Hermitage) incompatible with the Noble Eightfold Path

Post by BrokenBones »

mikenz66 wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 10:23 pm
Lucilius wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:37 pm The goal is to abandon these unskillful thoughts nevertheless.
You shouldn't tolerate them, or just "endure" them, without trying to do something about it.
Whether it is effective to just look at them/investigate them with equanimity, or whether one "exerts a fabrication", that is something we have to find out case by case, by trying different approaches and looking what works to abandon these thoughts.
Nevertheless, both approaches are trying to do something about the unskillful thoughts. There is the skillful desire of right effort to abandon unskillful thoughts.
It's not just letting them be there in the mind and waiting for them to leave.

The important part is, we have to try to abandon them, it doesn't matter in what way we do so. It should be effective, thats it..
Of course. The problem is that some seems to think that "abandoning" can be best achieved by denying and pushing away. That's what Ven NN is talking about.

:heart:
Mike
As a last resort... yes.

“If, while he is giving attention to stilling the thought-formation of those thoughts, there still arise in him evil unwholesome thoughts connected with desire, with hate, and with delusion, then, with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth, he should beat down, constrain, and crush mind with mind. When, with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth, he beats down, constrains, and crushes mind with mind, then any evil unwholesome thoughts connected with desire, with hate, and with delusion are abandoned in him and subside. With the abandoning of them his mind becomes steadied internally, quieted, brought to singleness, and concentrated."

https://suttacentral.net/mn20/en/bodhi? ... ight=false
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Re: Path of "Right Endurance" of Ven. Nyanamoli (from Hillside Hermitage) incompatible with the Noble Eightfold Path

Post by Lucilius »

Sasha_A wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:16 pm Without the endurance he is talking about it is impossible to even understand not only what the right effort is [...you can actually understand it sufficiently by reading/hearing the instructions/suttas.. and actually doing/trying those instructions youself], but what dukkha really is [i.e. fully seeing the first noble truth ≈ sotapatti]- impossible to get the right view [i.e. of an sotapañña]. It's about the very basis and the beginning of the development of the Noble Eightfold Path, it's about the difference between managing dukkha and uprooting dukkha.
Comments by me in [brackets], in line with how I understood your statement. I hope I didn't change/miss the meaning of what you intended to say.

1. If that right view of an sotapañña (deeply and directly comprehending dukkha, and having uprooted it, not just managing it) is necessary for starting on the noble eightfold path (by understanding the path-factors) one would need to be a sotapañña before one can embark on the noble eightfold path, and the Buddha would have taught two different paths; one of "right endurance" until one reaches sotapatti and one comprehends dukkha and the noble eightfold path and it's factors, and the noble eightfold path from there to arahatta..

...which is not the case.
the path is always the same; the noble eightfold path he taught.

The Buddha didn't say "do 'sense restraint' and 'right endurance' until you are a sotapañña and gain right view/knowledge, and then you can start with the noble eightfold path" (because you only now understand it sufficiently (to be able to follow it/to start on it) according to Ven. Nyanamoli..?); he taught one single path, which is exactly this noble eightfold path.

This means that when the Buddha talks about how right view comes first (in MN 117), this is not the right view of an sotapañña, but "initial" right view, i.e. "maps"/"instructions" of what you should do and shouldn't do.. which is pretty straightforward.
You keep these "instructions" in mind with right sati, and this informs right effort on what to do (at all times). This is how right view comes first and circles around all the remaining path factors.

..Anyhow, right view of an sotapañña/sotapatti is still reached by following the noble eightfold path, not some "path of 'right endurance'" (which is contradicting it, see my original post).

2.
Thoughts manifest on their own. That’s the fundamental point. Thinking that you can deny them already implies a wrong view, whereby you think that you are in charge of those thoughts, or that you are responsible for their arising.
This misses the important point that we are actually fabricating thoughts (even if often not consciously). We are making them arise and pass away through our actions.
Now, you don't have to/shouldn't identify with this action/fabrication (when the time is ripe); but still; thoughts are fabricated.
"We" can influence them, control them..

We have to see how and why "we" fabricate these things to be able to be free from them. And also how "we" relate to these things, "cling" to these things as mine..

I doubt that one can really see fabrication when one thinks that things/thoughts just "manifest on their own".. (is there a random thought generator somewhere?? XD)
We are not just (passively) "thrown into the world" as the existentialists claim(?), but we actively fabricate it... which is why we can stop (doing it) in the first place.
Thoughts don't just happen to us, we actively fabricate them..
The problem is not that unwholesome thoughts are manifesting. The problem is in that you cannot endure their presence.
Well, for arahants, unwholesome thoughts don't even "manifest"(because it is an action they stopped doing once and for all..). They don't even have to "endure"..

(But this is what happens when one thinks that the buddhist goal is merely the stoic "tranquilitas animi" and equanimity based on multiplicity..)

So the fundamental problem is, why are we doing things that cause dukkha?

With metta.
Lucilius
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Re: Path of "Right Endurance" of Ven. Nyanamoli (from Hillside Hermitage) incompatible with the Noble Eightfold Path

Post by Lucilius »

BrokenBones wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 10:42 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 10:23 pm
Lucilius wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:37 pm The goal is to abandon these unskillful thoughts nevertheless.
You shouldn't tolerate them, or just "endure" them, without trying to do something about it.
Whether it is effective to just look at them/investigate them with equanimity, or whether one "exerts a fabrication", that is something we have to find out case by case, by trying different approaches and looking what works to abandon these thoughts.
Nevertheless, both approaches are trying to do something about the unskillful thoughts. There is the skillful desire of right effort to abandon unskillful thoughts.
It's not just letting them be there in the mind and waiting for them to leave.

The important part is, we have to try to abandon them, it doesn't matter in what way we do so. It should be effective, thats it..
Of course. The problem is that some seems to think that "abandoning" can be best achieved by denying and pushing away. That's what Ven NN is talking about.

:heart:
Mike
As a last resort... yes.

“If, while he is giving attention to stilling the thought-formation of those thoughts, there still arise in him evil unwholesome thoughts connected with desire, with hate, and with delusion, then, with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth, he should beat down, constrain, and crush mind with mind. When, with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth, he beats down, constrains, and crushes mind with mind, then any evil unwholesome thoughts connected with desire, with hate, and with delusion are abandoned in him and subside. With the abandoning of them his mind becomes steadied internally, quieted, brought to singleness, and concentrated."

https://suttacentral.net/mn20/en/bodhi? ... ight=false
...The thing is, Ven. Nyanamoli seems to "forbid"/discourage even the first measure one should take according to MN 20.. which is replacing the unskillful thought (this is a form of pushing away the unskillful thought, just as one drives out a large peg with small one..).

With metta.
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SDC
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Re: Path of "Right Endurance" of Ven. Nyanamoli (from Hillside Hermitage) incompatible with the Noble Eightfold Path

Post by SDC »

Lucilius wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:21 pm I'm not sure what your argument is..

I would be grateful if you could clarify it a bit more..
SDC wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:24 pm There is a difference between a dhamma (mental object/thought/mental image) and vitakka of MN 20, which is more of the direction of thought being either wholesome or unwholesome, or dangerous and unworthy.
you mean nimitta?? or sañña? or something else..? with "dhamma", "mental image"?
(mental) image = nimitta?
For instance, if you had a thought about harming someone [=akusala vitakka?], it would be unwholesome to entertain the signs [e.g. memories of injustice done to oneself by that person] that contributed to [gave rise to?] greed, hate [in this case: that vitakka of harming that someone as an act of vengeance] or delusion [in the first place?].
I filled in some thoughts by myself to make sense of it.. I hope it doesn't change the meaning of what you were intending to say.
That image [nimitta??] of you harming someone is not vitakka. Picking up the sign [nimitta?] of unwholesome or wholesome in regard to that thought is vitakka. It is movement on account of perception.
The thought you harming someone is a akusala vitakka, not a nimitta (if thats what you wanted to say??); sure, the original nimitta that lead to the arising of that akusala vitakka (e.g. memory of injustice) is not the akusala vitakka itself..
Ajahn Nyanamoli seems to be advocating for not overly denying or overly accepting the image [nimitta??], and even if it comes again and again, not to entertain the signs [=images??] that would bend the mind towards unwholesome, and not to entertain dealing with the content [vitakka??] directly. As MN 20 states, don’t go in the direction of unwholesome.
....As I understand the teaching of Ven. Nyanamoli, one should not try to destroy or abandon the {thoughts of desire (the example given in the video)/thoughts of harming someone} = akusala vitakka by e.g. replacing the nimitta {attractiveness of body/memories of injustice} with the nimitta {unattractiveness of body (asubha)/memories of the good things that person has also done} as that would be "acting out of it (it = the akusala vitakka of {sensual desire/thought of doing harm} and the unpleasant 'pressure' that it entails)". As he says in the video, don't jump into the practice of asubha (which would be changing the nimitta).
This, of course, is contradicting the instruction to do exactly that (replace the nimitta) in MN 20.

...As I said, I'm not really sure what your argument is..?
That Ven. Nyanamoli is actually saying, "don't deal with the unskillful thought (akusala vitakka) directly, but change or ignore/don't pay attention to the nimitta that gives rise to the akusala vitakka"?

Is that what you were trying to say??
But then again, he says, "don't jump into the practice of asubha" to get rid of the unskillful thought (vitakka?) of lust, because that itself is a type of sensuality according to him(?)

With metta.
Let’s try to find some middle ground on terminology first:

A mental image/thought (I use them interchangeably) is a dhamma. Manasā dhamma in terms of sixth sense base (mano and dhamma), and dhammasañña on the level of perception (sañña). The direction of thought (vitakka) based on the entire experience with that initial image can either be wholesome or unwholesome. Those directions are available based on “owing to the signs” (nimitta) that are available, i.e., giving attention to the indications of something additional to that image. Picking up the sign that leads to the intensification of greed, hate or delusion in terms of that first image is going to make the situation worse, so anything that intensifies should be left alone. MN 20 gives plenty of suggestions about what to do with the pressuring unwholesome direction. If certain signs are dragging the mind towards unwholesome then a different sign connected with wholesome should be picked up.

Are you familiar with the cook simile from SN 47.8? The experience is that of both the aspect of a cook and a master. The cook makes the choice of what to serve and the master decides what he likes and dislikes. Picking up the sign of the mind is to pick up the preference of the mind, and that is not always going to be a wholesome direction, i.e. the cook and master aren’t always going to get along. The cook is not obligated to accept his master’s every preference but he sure better understand how to identify them.

Having said that, presence of images (in terms of mano) is not choice. The six sense base is mara’s domain and “my” deliberate volition is not necessarily responsible for every image that arises. Same goes for the signs available in a given experience, and is why they are described as “distracting” in MN 20 - those vitakka are asserting themselves. What is a choice is how to deal with these images/thoughts, and that is achieved by understanding attention to the available signs. So, I would disagree with you that the initial image of violence is vitakka. What is vitakka is what directions are available on account of it. Keep in mind that vitakka-vicara is “thinking and pondering”. It’s movement. Directionality.

You seem to be taking vitakka in relation to perception, i.e. the content of the image, and are taking MN 20 and MN 2 as an exercise in direct adjusting the content of the image. I disagree with that reading. Both suttas are talking about vitakka (that direction) and how not to take it. Indeed, this will indirectly affect the images and the options, but not on account of some new image that you created to put there - but on account of the choice of attending to either wholesome or unwholesome. So, as I read them, MN 20 is about avoiding the unwholesome direction by those five different means, up to and including crushing the mind with mind, and MN 2 is about “removing” three directions of thought: that of sensuality, ill will and cruelty. It isn’t about replacing images with images. The image may remain unpleasant and uncomfortable the entire time, but as long as the unwholesome direction was not picked up, the mind will be held back from greed, hate and delusion.

That’s how I understand the terms in question. From that point of view there is the option for both endurance and removal. Endurance of the pressure to get rid of what is unpleasant, and the removal of the unwholesome directions of thought connected with greed, hate and delusion.

Edit: In reading your other posts, it seems you have very broad disagreements with Ajahn Nyanamoli’s entire approach, going far beyond the topic you mentioned in the OP, and it seems this thread is your means of inducing doubt for those who may be intrigued by his views. I’m not sure what you hope to gain by doing so. If you have what you believe to right and helpful views about the Dhamma, best spend your time introducing those instead of working to take down a whole interpretation as groundwork. Are you concerned about people being led astray? Then give them something to follow instead of something to ignore. Just a “thought” lol.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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