Path of "Right Endurance" of Ven. Nyanamoli (from Hillside Hermitage) incompatible with the Noble Eightfold Path

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Lucilius
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2022 11:41 am

Re: Path of "Right Endurance" of Ven. Nyanamoli (from Hillside Hermitage) incompatible with the Noble Eightfold Path

Post by Lucilius »

SDC wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:58 pm At this point, I think I have shown that your concerns are emerging from a gray area resulting from Ajahn Nyanamoli taking for granted that the listener was already familiar with his views and usage of these terms (or that they would eventually get to the point of familiarity). Indeed, he did not start from scratch in the video from the OP, and therefore the listener is at a slight disadvantage - especially if they want to make a broad judgement of his views at that point. Though, even in your appendix we see three or four different words that can all be rendered "thought" when properly qualified. If someone relatively unfamiliar with such qualifications were to go to work on the suttas in question, they would also pick up on potential incompatibility between them. What I pointed out, in the very least, should induce some uncertainty in your position solely based in the fact that many different words are being used interchangeably. All in all, in one of the videos I posted it is clear that Ajahn Nyanamoli sees MN 20 as ways to cut off the energy for the continuing of thinking rooted in greed, ill will and delusion, and that if the effort was successful the mind would calm down. That alone should be a sign that what you gathered from the OP video may not be the whole story.
Fair enough.
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Path of "Right Endurance" of Ven. Nyanamoli (from Hillside Hermitage) incompatible with the Noble Eightfold Path

Post by Alex123 »

I really like the Venerable's Dhamma talks. I've also read some of his interesting essays. He seems very bright and I like how he emphasizes morality and sense restraint. Something that tends to be overlooked in the west.

I do wonder about his Right Endurance teaching.
mikenz66 wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:44 pm I don't see a contradiction. I think it comes down to a matter of how to implement the instructions in the suttta. What will be most effective to achieve that abandoning, non-arising, etc? That's something to investigate.
Yes, that is what I am thinking could be the justification for such views.
Does it work to immediately "stamp out" the thought? Or does it work better to investigate it, see it fade away, and have a better understanding of how to to cultivate oneself so those thoughts don't arise in the future?
It might be both. The more often you suppress the presently arisen akusala thoughts, the more you condition the mind not to tolerate them. It becomes habit of your mind. Eventually they will arise less and less. It is like knocking down (or hitting hard) an opponent in the boxing ring. Sure he might take a lot of punishment and still manage to get up many times. But eventually he will get tired, and then knocked out permanently.

Of course the eradication of akusala is the goal. But it is hard to do if you only depend upon a "knock-out blow" (maggaphala) to use a boxing simile.

In addition to MN#2 sutta quotes that I've seen, there is also this sutta quote:
Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, relentlessness, mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head; in the same way, the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, relentlessness, mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... tml#turban

IMHO.
keller
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun May 09, 2021 2:10 am

Re: Path of "Right Endurance" of Ven. Nyanamoli (from Hillside Hermitage) incompatible with the Noble Eightfold Path

Post by keller »

Lucilius wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:46 pm @keller
keller wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:06 pmVenerable Nyanamoli is not advocating that one unilaterally "do nothing" as they paradoxically advance in some schools of Zen. This would indeed be the abandoning of Right Effort.
I'm not saying that he is advocating "doing nothing at all"; "enduring" is indeed "doing something", just not "doing something" about the akusala thoughts that have arisen.
It is a subtle thing, but for the spiritual practitioner who is unwittingly and unwillingly consumed in lust, the desire to be free from that lustful state becomes their sensuality. [...]

Whether it is asubha or intentional dissociation through bringing up perceptions of the three characteristics or any other conventional "skillful" means, any attempt to perceptually modify the state of lust will necessarily be based in sensuality, because that is the very modality of a lustful mind.

As such, the only thing one can really skillfully do in that situation is not give in to the impetus to either act out of the thoughts at the gross level or to actively maintain the train of thought at the subtle level.
I strongly disagree.

It seems you have already adopted Ven. Nyanamolis re-definition of sensuality...
Your whole argument here relies upon adopting/accepting Ven. Nyanamolis re-definition of "sensuality", which (to my knowledge) has no basis in the suttas whatsoever; thus there is no compelling reason to adopt it for me. Especially when it in fact skewes the meaning and understanding of what is said in the suttas, imo.

May i again remind you of SN 45.8 and the definition of right effort:
“And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. (iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen. This, monks, is called right effort.”
Notice how he generates desire and upholds his intent for the sake of abandoning unskillful dhammas that have arisen.
In other words, one has to want to and try to get rid of them; which is in direct contradiction to what Ven. Nyanamoli is advocating with his practice of "endurance".

It doesn't even matter what the results of whatever one is doing is, if there is not generating desire (etc.) for the abandoning of akusala dhamma, one is not doing right effort.

Sidenote: there must be a reason why this, specifically is right effort. I can only speculate, but it seems that only this (generating desire etc.) is actually effective, adequate and sufficient (for abandoning akusala dhamma).

Thus, one factor of the path is not followed by adopting the practice of "endurance".
Without following and developing all eight factors of the path, there is no liberation (on any level).
In a more general sense the desire to not have lustful states of mind is obviously wholesome and integral to the path. Venerable Nyanamoli indicates as much by stating that the time to engage in asubha is when one is not already in the midst of lust.
Sure, that can be a appropriate time to contemplate asubha. But you can contemplate asubha even when and especially when there is lust in the mind. Trying to get rid of sensuality is not sensuality itself, according to the definition of sensuality in the suttas.

...
And here's the kicker: focusing on this nimitta of endurance is, in a lustful situation, actually fulfilling the first four strategies for the removal of unwholesome thoughts in MN 20!
Few objections:
...Even if the practice of endurance would somehow fit MN 20 somehow, if it doesn't fit SN 45.8 (which it doesn't, see above), then it's still not right effort.
Also, one has to find a interpretation of MN 20 etc. that fits SN 45.8...

...So the following considerations are somewhat superfluous imo. Nevertheless:
It is directing the mind towards a skilfull theme that is not connected with greed, aversion, or delusion;
Doesn't the "theme of enduring" include what it is "enduring", in this case, akusala thoughts? So akusala thoughts are still present (and therefore not removed) while "enduring", even if one doesn't welcome them or delight in them.
it is recognizing the unwholesomeness of the thoughts in a manner even beyond basic conceptualization by not acting out of them or emotionally indulging in them further.
If you actually saw their unskillfulness, you would not tolerate even their presence (even when not "acted out of", i.e. delighted in and "given in to"), You would try to destroy, extinguish, wipe them out of existence asap. It's not just acting out of them that is problematic, but also their presence per se.
How else does one attempt to forget something other than by not giving the topic any further emotionally-charged attention, by remaining indifferent to it?
According to MN 20, you are not just not-giving "emotionally-charged" attention to akusala thoughts, you are not paying them attention at all..
Just as the man when he looks away, looks away (completely) or even closes his eyes. He isn't looking without emotionally-charged attention (but still looking); he is not looking.
Also, you cannot scrutinize the drawback of a akusala thought while paying it no attention. These are 2 seperate approaches.
And how else do sankharas become stilled other than by just being still, immovable, unshakable, enduring.
..Through appropriate attention, investigation and questioning. You see that what you are doing is unneccessary and causing stress, so you simply stop it.
The sutta illustrates this with asking oneself: "Why am I running?" -> exhausting/stressful and unneccessary -> so he walks. "Why am I walking?" -> exhausting/stressful and unneccessary -> so he stands, and so on..
In the same way, you ask youself: e.g. "why am I fabricating this thought?"-> you see that it is stressful and unneccessary -> relaxation of that thought-fabrication.

Also, as long as that akusala thought persists, as long as you have to endure it, its' ongoing/continous fabrication is obviously not stilled.
Of course, as Ajahn Geoff says, there are times when you need to be humble, get out the sledgehammer and use the fifth method.
Sure. But he isn't saying your options are either "practice of 'endurance'" or the "sledgehammer".
He us also not advocating enduring/tolerating/not destroying/not doing something about arisen akusala thoughts.

The five methods are five different methods.

It is not the case (im the suttas) that the "practice of endurance" covers methods 1~4; and if it doesn't work, you should use the "sledgehammer" (method 5).
You use 1, then 2, if 1 doesn't work, then 3, if 2 doesn't work and so on..
Recognizing the limits of one's endurance is important.
I don't think Ven. Nyanamoli would agree with you that there would be a limit to the practice "endurance" (i.e. cases/times when it is insufficient or inadequate; when it doesn't work), it seems to be basically the only thing he teaches (at least until you reach sotapatti).. which seems to replaces the noble eightfold path (or at least the samādhi-khandha (sammā-vayama, sammā-sati, sammā-samādhi) of it)...(?)
But in the ways I previously mentioned, endurance is a powerful tool for engaging in Right Effort in all but the most dire of sensual states.
As I said above, it's not right effort. Right effort is wanting to get rid of akusala thoughts and actively trying to get rid of them. Not allowing akusala thoughts to persist/exist/be present..
One can, through enduring, fulfill what is prescribed by the Buddha in MN 2 and the injunction in MN 20 to destroy arisen thoughts of sensuality.
Indeed, the sensuality of the thought is obliterated every moment that one holds it within the context of unwelcoming yet unreactive endurance.
As long as you endure the presence of sensuality, you have not obliterated it (i.e. brought it to absence), or else there would be no sensuality present which is to be endured.

.....
Just my 2 cents.
With mettā.

PS: This reply should be mostly consistent with my reply to @SDC, above. If it isn't; this reply was written before it, so I might have evolved my understanding a bit more there...
So I recommend reading that reply also..
@Lucilius

I was going through some old Hillside Hermitage videos and Ajahn Nyanamoli actually addresses precisely this issue of not tolerating and abandoning unskillful thoughts as discussed in MN 20, starting around 17:15 in the video below. The whole video is a good presentation of the fundamental nature of sensuality and, if it means anything to you, I have in my own practice come to a place where, for example, the arising of sexual fantasies does not necessarily entail lust. The images and even the pull of the pleasure arise but at this point I have now cultivated such an aggregate of restraint, contentment, and composure that such thoughts constitute an almost negligible danger to my mind, to the point that I now view them as rather comical. It has become so unthinkable for me to act out of such things, I now identify and resonate so little with that entire framework of existence that even when the thoughts do arise they are pathetically ineffective and hold only the most remote risk of sensuality for me. A beautiful naked body is not sensual: it is your attitude that makes it so. Sensuality is not in the content of the thoughts. The "content" of your mind and even your life is irrelevant: it's the context of your attitudes, habits, and understanding that makes all the difference.

User avatar
justpractice
Posts: 123
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:49 pm

Re: Path of "Right Endurance" of Ven. Nyanamoli (from Hillside Hermitage) incompatible with the Noble Eightfold Path

Post by justpractice »

keller wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 12:58 pm I was going through some old Hillside Hermitage videos and Ajahn Nyanamoli actually addresses precisely this issue of not tolerating and abandoning unskillful thoughts as discussed in MN 20, starting around 17:15 in the video below. The whole video is a good presentation of the fundamental nature of sensuality and, if it means anything to you, I have in my own practice come to a place where, for example, the arising of sexual fantasies does not necessarily entail lust. The images and even the pull of the pleasure arise but at this point I have now cultivated such an aggregate of restraint, contentment, and composure that such thoughts constitute an almost negligible danger to my mind, to the point that I now view them as rather comical. It has become so unthinkable for me to act out of such things, I now identify and resonate so little with that entire framework of existence that even when the thoughts do arise they are pathetically ineffective and hold only the most remote risk of sensuality for me. A beautiful naked body is not sensual: it is your attitude that makes it so. Sensuality is not in the content of the thoughts. The "content" of your mind and even your life is irrelevant: it's the context of your attitudes, habits, and understanding that makes all the difference.
Inspiring to read about the aggregate of virtue and restraint you have cultivated. Indeed, seeing over and over that immovability of mind in regards to that which used to move it can make much of those formerly pressuring situations seem quite comical. Not giving attention to a petulant child will eventually result in the child calming down on its own.
"Whoever avoids sensual desires
— as he would, with his foot,
the head of a snake —
goes beyond, mindful,
this attachment in the world." - Sn 4.1
Suddh
Posts: 186
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2023 8:57 am

Re: Path of "Right Endurance" of Ven. Nyanamoli (from Hillside Hermitage) incompatible with the Noble Eightfold Path

Post by Suddh »

Lucilius wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 3:23 pm Ven. Nyanamolis "path of 'right endurance'" seems to be against right effort and therefore incompatible with the noble eightfold path (as laid out in the suttas).

Excerpt from "The Right Endurance" from Ven. Nyanamolis book "Dhamma Within Reach - A Guide to Endurance, Patience and Wisdom" (download: https://www.hillsidehermitage.org/new-book/):
Q: What is the middle way between asceticism and sensual indulgence? Is it the practice of enduring (neither giving in to or denying) thoughts?

Nyanamoli: That’s the way to cultivate the middle way.
Acting out of sensual thoughts, accepting them without reflection, not enduring them with sense restraint—that is what Sensuality is. [...]
Once you realize that acting out of sensual thoughts is bad, you will probably naturally jump to the conclusion that you mustn’t have those thoughts to begin with. That you must get rid of them and prevent them from manifesting. That is how you go to the other extreme: denial of thoughts.
You need to differentiate between “withstanding arisen thoughts” (enduring) and trying to “get rid of the presence of arisen thoughts” (denying).
The latter way is equally ignoble to the habitual giving in to sensual thoughts. That way can take you into that other extreme of self-mortification and extreme denials.
Physical endurance is hard, but it’s not as hard as enduring a presence of a sensual thought without acting out of it or trying to deny its presence.
[...] Allowing thoughts to endure without acting out of them, would be the beginning of the Middle Way.
From Hillside Hermitages video "Escape from the Body":
{15:46} [Nyanamoli:] The mind of lust is there, that needs to be endured. So the mind of lust is there, I must not act out of it. And if you're jumping into practice of asubha [i.e. the contemplation of the unattractiveness of the body in order to get rid of that lust] immidiately, you're acting out of it. You're not allowing it to be for what it is, that is the phenomenon of lust, the mind affected with lust; you're trying to get rid of it.
{16:05} And which is exactly the motion of sensuality. Lust is present, you jump into the sensuality to get rid of that painful
'itch'.
Compare this to:

MN 2: which āsava are to be abandoned by enduring/tolerating? which ones are to be abandoned by destroying/removing?

SN 45.8:
And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen.
(ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen.
(iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen. This, monks, is called right effort.
(transl. Ven. Thānissaro Bhikkhu, https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN45_8.html)

And how can one remove unskillful thoughts such as sensual desire?
MN 20 shows 5 ways to get rid of unskillful thoughts; some of which are what Ven. Nyanamoli would call "denying" thoughts (e.g. replacing it with another, skillful thought)
(ironically, he even quotes the sutta in the article..).
Agreed. The Buddha calls one who endures a sensual thought "lazy" and thoroughly praises those who immediately destroy them.

The teaching in question is thus encouraging laziness. Therefore it is not Dhamma.
Suddh
Posts: 186
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2023 8:57 am

Re: Path of "Right Endurance" of Ven. Nyanamoli (from Hillside Hermitage) incompatible with the Noble Eightfold Path

Post by Suddh »

“If, while he is walking, monks, there arises in a monk a thought of sensuality, a thought of ill-will, or a thought of harmfulness, and he does not quickly abandon, dispel, demolish, or wipe that thought out of existence, then a monk walking with such a lack of ardency & compunction is called continually & continuously lethargic & low in his persistence.
Repeat for all postures.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/KN/Iti/iti110.html
McQueen
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2023 5:03 pm
Location: Tenessee, USA

Re: Path of "Right Endurance" of Ven. Nyanamoli (from Hillside Hermitage) incompatible with the Noble Eightfold Path

Post by McQueen »

Nyanamoli is not speaking against the dhamma.
Let's be friends.
Suddh
Posts: 186
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2023 8:57 am

Re: Path of "Right Endurance" of Ven. Nyanamoli (from Hillside Hermitage) incompatible with the Noble Eightfold Path

Post by Suddh »

I'm not looking for discussion but just want to highlight this point made earlier by a supporter of the monk in question. He says:
"It is a subtle thing, but for the spiritual practitioner who is unwittingly and unwillingly consumed in lust, the desire to be free from that lustful state becomes their sensuality."
Let's just be clear: the desire to be free from lust is not sensuality. That's about as big a distortion of the Dhamma as I can imagine.
Venerable Nyanamoli indicates as much by stating that the time to engage in asubha is when one is not already in the midst of lust.
There couldn't be a more appropriate time to engage in asubha when one's mind is afflicted by lust.

This is like a martial arts trainer telling his apprentices never to use their skills when they're under attack.
McQueen
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2023 5:03 pm
Location: Tenessee, USA

Re: Path of "Right Endurance" of Ven. Nyanamoli (from Hillside Hermitage) incompatible with the Noble Eightfold Path

Post by McQueen »

There is a larger amount of craving that happens when actively trying to destroy craving using a removal. Craving produced by seeing the process and not responding to it is less than what is produced by actively trying to eliminate it.
Let's be friends.
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 5614
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Path of "Right Endurance" of Ven. Nyanamoli (from Hillside Hermitage) incompatible with the Noble Eightfold Path

Post by robertk »

Suddh wrote: Thu Feb 29, 2024 11:58 am

Agreed. The Buddha calls one who endures a sensual thought "lazy" and thoroughly praises those who immediately destroy them.

The teaching in question is thus encouraging laziness. Therefore it is not Dhamma.
Perhaps the venerable was approaching it from this aspect:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Dhamma is visible here-&-now, the Dhamma is visible here-&-now,' it is said. To what extent is the Dhamma visible here-&-now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the wise for themselves?"

"Very well, then, Sivaka, I will ask you a question in return. Answer as you see fit. What do you think: When greed is present within you, do you discern that 'Greed is present within me'? And when greed is not present within you, do you discern that 'Greed is not present within me'?"

"Yes, lord."

"The fact that when greed is present within you, you discern that greed is present within you; and when greed is not present within you, you discern that greed is not present within you: that is one way in which the Dhamma is visible in the here-&-now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the wise for themselves.

"What do you think: When aversion is present within you... When delusion is present within you... When a greedy quality[1] is present within you... When an aversive quality is present within you...
One way is to suppress greed. Another is to understand it.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19943
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Path of "Right Endurance" of Ven. Nyanamoli (from Hillside Hermitage) incompatible with the Noble Eightfold Path

Post by mikenz66 »

robertk wrote: Thu Feb 29, 2024 1:21 pm One way is to suppress greed. Another is to understand it.
I think that's the point. I personally to find Ven. Nyanamoli a bit one-dimensional in his approach to practice, but he does make some good points. This issue is definitely something to beware of and Ven. Nyanamoli and his followers are by no means original in noting this - many teachers have told me exactly the same thing:
"It is a subtle thing, but for the spiritual practitioner who is unwittingly and unwillingly consumed in lust, the desire to be free from that lustful state becomes their sensuality."
One could misread that sentence as encouraging laziness, but I think the point is that if the long-term goal is freedom from lust, aversion, and delusion, then simply squashing the lust whenever it arises, rather than understanding it, observing it, seeing it fade away, is not going to achieve the goal. It's just aversion to what is happening, and desire to be more comfortable. Note that Ven. Nyanamoli repeatedly uses the rather quaint expression "not acting out". There is certainly effort there. If he were advocating laziness he'd be advising to "just go with the lust..." :tongue:

Of course, there are times when lust or aversion are so overwhelming that one does has to do something about it, as in MN20 https://suttacentral.net/mn20. It depends on the context.
Suddh
Posts: 186
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2023 8:57 am

Re: Path of "Right Endurance" of Ven. Nyanamoli (from Hillside Hermitage) incompatible with the Noble Eightfold Path

Post by Suddh »

When the Buddha gives instructions to discern an unskilful mind state, note that he doesn't say "Just discern it and leave it as it is." Remember that accompanying every satipaṭṭhāna is the instruction to be "ardent, alert and mindful, subduing greed and distress with regard to the world."

He might not think he's teaching laziness, and it might not fit with ordinary understanding of what laziness is, but it's quite clearly the very definition of the Buddha's definition of laziness as quoted above.
Suddh
Posts: 186
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2023 8:57 am

Re: Path of "Right Endurance" of Ven. Nyanamoli (from Hillside Hermitage) incompatible with the Noble Eightfold Path

Post by Suddh »

Suddh wrote: Thu Feb 29, 2024 12:01 pm
“If, while he is walking, monks, there arises in a monk a thought of sensuality, a thought of ill-will, or a thought of harmfulness, and he does not quickly abandon, dispel, demolish, or wipe that thought out of existence, then a monk walking with such a lack of ardency & compunction is called continually & continuously lethargic & low in his persistence.
Repeat for all postures.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/KN/Iti/iti110.html
Just to emphasise: there's a group of practitioners out there, even monks, who hold the view that the Buddha's advice to destroy unskilful thoughts immediately is wrong practice. "Puthujjana" practice.

They say you have to"endure" arisen unskilful qualities. The Buddha however says quite literally that they are not to be endured "nādhivāseti" but to be eliminated - byantikaroti - as quickly as possible. Understanding how to stop them is part of his instruction - for him, learning to suppress, fight them and make them end is part and parcel of understanding them.

A fighter who doesn't know how to floor his opponent lacks the facet of understanding most crucial to his success.
Post Reply