Theravada vs Mahayana

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Saaz
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Re: Theravada vs Mahayana

Post by Saaz »

Thank you for your answers!

I get these feelings from some of the Mahayana sutras (not all of them) and surely from teachings of some sects, like Zen. I didn't want to state anything specific with my post, but trying to see if I can find a common groud beetween some "truths" that I have found in both Zen and the Theravada tradition. I didn't say that "because of the emphasis on sudden realization, there is no importance given to ethics, cultivating wholesome qualities". What I'm actually keen to believe is that all the emphasis that is put in the concept of emptiness is because it would spontaneously lead to a right ethics, wholesome qualities, etc. In my experences with Zen I definetly found much more focus on Zazen rather than the cultivation of wholesome qualities (that is not to say that are not there or shouldn't be).
PeterC86
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Re: Theravada vs Mahayana

Post by PeterC86 »

DNS wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 12:13 am
cappuccino wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 12:04 am
DNS wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:09 pm There is no permanent soul, self or essence in anything.
Find where this is stated, anywhere at all

:shrug:
Sabbe dhammā anattā
Here is where you go wrong, because sabbe dhamma anatta doesn't mean that there is no permanent soul, self or essence in anything, it means that there is no soul, self or essence in anything. Your understanding of the three marks of existence is wrong, therefore your understanding of the buddhadhamma is wrong. So whatever it is that you're practicing, based on this wrong understanding, it will not lead you to Nibbana.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Theravada vs Mahayana

Post by Coëmgenu »

PeterC86 wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 11:57 amsabbe dhamma anatta doesn't mean that there is no permanent soul
"The Attā" or "Ātman" is necessarily permanent. Please go learn real Buddhism. Don't just make up stuff on this forum like how you make up stuff for your book. What you are peddling on this website has been best described as "a feeble version of Krishnamurti's Vedantic maundering."
Saaz wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 10:32 amIn my experences with Zen I definetly found much more focus on Zazen rather than the cultivation of wholesome qualities (that is not to say that are not there or shouldn't be).
Zen sometimes has an antinomian streak running through it. There's a famous Zen saying, "Obey the precepts, and you are like the animals. Break them, and you are human." It is a sort of "turn it all upside down" mentality, and it reminds me of the sentiment "To err is human" that we encounter in the West.

Unfortunately, in reality, outside of the purview of this platitude, the animals break the precepts all the time. They don't obey the precepts at all, and if they tried, they would fail. It is humans who do things like "keep precepts," generally speaking. I think that the saying likely IMO comes from the period of Japanese history when the Imperium was trying to crush vinaya-observance as part of the "discard the Buddha and break Śākyamuni" (廃仏毀釈) initiative. This initiative was designed to all but destroy institutional Buddhism in Japan and replace it with a new cooked-up state religion in the form of an emperor-worshipping cult that is known today as "State Shinto." That's just a guess though as to what historical context might cause such an odd saying to become popular.

Not all Zen is like that at all. We can go cherry-picking for "bad Zen," such as the "Samurai Zen" of the past, when soldiers were taught to kill without remorse because, in truth, no one was killing or being killed, or even WWII Zen that taught that Japan would conquer the world and usher in a glorious golden age of Buddhism, starting with the "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere." We can also go cherry-picking for bad Christians if we want to say that Christianity is bad, or bad Muslims, or bad Hindus, bad Jews, bad Daoists, bad whatever. There's always a negative example that someone can find.

So there's some Zen that basically says "Only rubes follow the Buddha's precepts" and there's some Zen where the Buddha's precepts are very important. There's some Zen where scripture is shunned as if it were filled with dirty words. There's some Zen where they read the Buddha's sutras. There's even Zen where they read almost exclusively the Pali Canon, with a sprinkling of the Diamond and Heart Sutras here and there.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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cappuccino
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Re: Theravada vs Mahayana

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 1:44 pm There's a famous Zen saying, "Obey the precepts, and you are like the animals. Break them, and you are human."
The precepts are the requirement to be human


Breaking the precepts leads to the lower realms


This is basic stuff
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Theravada vs Mahayana

Post by Coëmgenu »

Well, we agree for once! That's a refreshing change.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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DNS
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Re: Theravada vs Mahayana

Post by DNS »

PeterC86 wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 11:57 am Here is where you go wrong, because sabbe dhamma anatta doesn't mean that there is no permanent soul, self or essence in anything, it means that there is no soul, self or essence in anything. Your understanding of the three marks of existence is wrong, therefore your understanding of the buddhadhamma is wrong. So whatever it is that you're practicing, based on this wrong understanding, it will not lead you to Nibbana.
So you believe there is a permanent soul or self? Or you believe there is none? Your post is a jumbled mess. And telling someone "you are wrong" is not an argument, not logical or illogical, it's just a non-starter. Additionally, threats of karmic retribution (your "will not lead you to Nibbana") are violations of the terms of service and also make no point, either by way of logic or any other means.
PeterC86
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Re: Theravada vs Mahayana

Post by PeterC86 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 1:44 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 11:57 amsabbe dhamma anatta doesn't mean that there is no permanent soul
"The Attā" or "Ātman" is necessarily permanent.
But there is no atman, so it is neither permanent nor impermanent.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Theravada vs Mahayana

Post by Coëmgenu »

It doesn't matter whether it exists or not. The Buddha says there is no such thing. To those who believe in the Ātman, however, it is believed to be permanent or semi-permanent.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
PeterC86
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Re: Theravada vs Mahayana

Post by PeterC86 »

DNS wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 3:04 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 11:57 am Here is where you go wrong, because sabbe dhamma anatta doesn't mean that there is no permanent soul, self or essence in anything, it means that there is no soul, self or essence in anything. Your understanding of the three marks of existence is wrong, therefore your understanding of the buddhadhamma is wrong. So whatever it is that you're practicing, based on this wrong understanding, it will not lead you to Nibbana.
So you believe there is a permanent soul or self? Or you believe there is none? Your post is a jumbled mess. And telling someone "you are wrong" is not an argument, not logical or illogical, it's just a non-starter. Additionally, threats of karmic retribution (your "will not lead you to Nibbana") are violations of the terms of service and also make no point, either by way of logic or any other means.
You wrote that "There is no permanent soul, self or essence in anything," referring to sabbe dhamma anatta. Then I explained that sabbe dhamma anatta means that there is no self at all; neither permanent or impermanent.

Believing in an impermanent self is not according to sabbe dhamma anatta, therefore it is not buddhadhamma but wrong understanding. I don't make a threat of karmic retribution, I merely state that if you follow a practice based on believing that there is an impermanent self, this will not lead to Nibbana.
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DNS
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Re: Theravada vs Mahayana

Post by DNS »

PeterC86 wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 3:28 pm You wrote that "There is no permanent soul, self or essence in anything," referring to sabbe dhamma anatta. Then I explained that sabbe dhamma anatta means that there is no self at all; neither permanent or impermanent.
Well, cappuccino seemed to think I was too far toward no-self and apparently you feel I'm too far in the other direction; so maybe I'm somewhere in the middle. :tongue:

Everything exists: That is one extreme. Everything doesn't exist: That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications . . . (continues with Dependent Orgination formula). (Samyutta Nikaya 12.15)
But anyway, this is off-topic, continue in one of the many other anatta - no-self - not-self threads.
asahi
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Re: Theravada vs Mahayana

Post by asahi »

"Everything" according to other ascetics refers to what ? It seems other ascetics posits there is some external things to be regarded as concrete thing lying outside which Buddha doesnt .
According to Buddha , everything refers to the all , that which is happening in between sense bases and sense objects .
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wenjaforever
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Re: Theravada vs Mahayana

Post by wenjaforever »

Think avalokitesvara. The logic is not coherent with the tripitaka.
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Theravada vs Mahayana

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Within this recent LamRim of Path in Stages text from Wisdom pubs. Library of Tibet series, is the 5th Dalai Lama's famous Words of Manjusri. This is first English translation, I think. It is over 160pp itself.

https://wisdomexperience.org/product/st ... nsmission/
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Theravada vs Mahayana

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Nicholas Weeks wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 6:54 pm Within this recent LamRim of Path in Stages text from Wisdom pubs. Library of Tibet series, is the 5th Dalai Lama's famous Words of Manjusri. This is first English translation, I think. It is over 160pp itself.

https://wisdomexperience.org/product/st ... nsmission/
Here is the Preface to this valuable text:
It is a profound source of joy for me to be able to offer in English this
special anthology of teachings of the Geluk school of Tibetan Buddhism,
founded near Lhasa by the celebrated master Tsongkhapa in the early fifteenth
century. This volume, number 6 in The Library of Tibetan Classics,
contains fifteen texts on four key areas of practice: (1) the lamrim, or stages of
the path, based on instructions of the masters Atiśa and Tsongkhapa, (2) guru
yoga based on Tsongkhapa’s oral transmissions, (3) mahāmudra and guide
to the view, drawn on and inspired by Tsongkhapa’s oral teachings, and (4)
the three essential points, stemming from a unique instruction of the Indian
mystic Mitrayogi.
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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Pondera
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Re: Theravada vs Mahayana

Post by Pondera »

Mahayana is lacking the eight fold path. Mahayana is lacking the Jhanas - right concentration, right Liberation, right knowledge.

It has “sunyata” - and it disregards the eightfold path as a lesser path.

IMO - a bunch of monks who weren’t finding any success along the eightfold path decided to *convert* the original teachings to a more simplified, *loftier* *concept* of emptiness.

And moreover, make the claim that, instead of following 8FP, one should “postpone” it until *emptiness* has been developed.

This is sad, IMO.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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