What to do about negative feelings?

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Dhammapardon
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What to do about negative feelings?

Post by Dhammapardon »

Hello all,

I am grateful for the opportunity to share my beginner question with you and the willingness of this group to provide insights and wisdom.

I am experiencing some negative emotions and my limited understanding of the Dhamma has provided a few avenues to examine. I am having trouble understanding what to do.

When I feel a negative emotion because of some condition, do I sit with the feelings experiencing them fully while observing? Do I examine and process them through means of dependent arising and breaking them into their parts? Do I return to the present moment where the mental phenomena simply cease as they exist only in my mind and not in the present moment? Or something else?

Exploring all three through my limited understanding has yielded inconclusive results, more confusion, and more emotional discomfort.

I'm missing something here but unsure what.

Thank you in advance for spending time and effort on this confusion.
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
User019336
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Re: What to do about negative feelings?

Post by User019336 »

Dhammapardon wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:27 pm When I feel a negative emotion because of some condition, do I sit with the feelings experiencing them fully while observing? Do I examine and process them through means of dependent arising and breaking them into their parts? Do I return to the present moment where the mental phenomena simply cease as they exist only in my mind and not in the present moment? Or something else?
There is no point in tolerating unwholesome states, dispell them as soon as possible.
“And what, Ānanda, is the perception of abandoning? Here, a bhikkhu does not tolerate an arisen sensual thought; he abandons it, dispels it, terminates it, and obliterates it. He does not tolerate an arisen thought of ill will … an arisen thought of harming … bad unwholesome states whenever they arise; he abandons them, dispels them, terminates them, and obliterates them. This is called the perception of abandoning.
There are five primary ways
The Removal of Distracting Thoughts (Vitakka-Santhana Sutta) wrote:Five things should be reflected on from time to time, by the bhikkhu who is intent on the higher consciousness. What five?

When evil unskillful thoughts connected with desire, hate, and delusion arise in a bhikkhu through reflection on an adventitious object, he should, (in order to get rid of that), reflect on a different object which is connected with skill. Then the evil unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation).

Like an experienced carpenter or carpenter's apprentice, striking hard at, pushing out, and getting rid of a coarse peg with a fine one, should the bhikkhu in order to get rid of the adventitious object, reflect on a different object which is connected with skill. Then the evil unskillful thoughts connected with desire, hate and delusion are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation).
If the evil unskillful thoughts continue to arise in a bhikkhu, who in order to get rid of an adventitious object reflects on a different object which is connected with skill, he should ponder on the disadvantages of unskillful thoughts thus: Truly these thoughts of mine are unskillful, blameworthy, and productive of misery. Then the evil unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation).

Like a well-dressed young man or woman who feels horrified, humiliated and disgusted because of the carcass of a snake, dog, or human that is hung round his or her neck, should the bhikkhu in whom unskillful thoughts continue to arise in spite of his reflection on the object which is connected with skill, ponder on the disadvantages of unskillful thoughts thus: Truly, these thoughts of mine are unskillful, blameworthy, and productive of misery. Then the evil, unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation).
If evil, unskillful thoughts continue to arise in a bhikkhu who ponders on their disadvantageousness, he should in regard to them, endeavor to be without attention and reflection. Then the evil unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation).

Like a keen-eyed man shutting his eyes and looking away from some direction in order to avoid seeing visible objects come within sight, should the bhikkhu in whom evil, unskillful thoughts continue to arise in spite of his pondering on their disadvantageousness, endeavor to be without attention and reflection as regards them. Then the evil, unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation).
If evil, unskillful thoughts continue to arise in a bhikkhu in spite of his endeavor to be without attention and reflection as regards evil, unskillful thoughts, he should reflect on the removal of the (thought) source of those unskillful thoughts. Then the evil, unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation).

Just as a man finding no reason for walking fast, walks slowly; finding no reason for walking slowly, stands; finding no reason for standing, sits down; finding no reason for sitting down, lies down, and thus getting rid of a posture rather uncalm resorts to a restful posture, just so should the bhikkhu in whom evil, unskillful thoughts arise, in spite of his endeavor to be without attention and reflection regarding them, reflect on the removal of the (thought) source of those unskillful thoughts. Then the evil, unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation).
If evil, unskillful thoughts continue to arise in a bhikkhu in spite of his reflection on the removal of a source of unskillful thoughts, he should with clenched teeth and the tongue pressing on the palate, restrain, subdue and beat down the (evil) mind by the (good) mind. Then the evil, unskillful thoughts connected with desire, hate and delusion are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation).

Like a strong man holding a weaker man by the head or shoulders and restraining, subduing and beating him down, should the bhikkhu in whom evil, unskillful thoughts continue to arise in spite of his reflection on the source of unskillful thoughts, restrain, subdue and beat down the (evil) mind by the (good) mind, with clenched teeth and the tongue pressing on the palate. Then the evil, unskillful thoughts connected with desire, hate and delusion are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation).
Buddha taught many skillful perceptions which counter the various unwholesome themes and it is good to learn them all so that you can direct you mind most skillfully at all times.
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: What to do about negative feelings?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

User019336 wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 12:14 am Buddha taught many skillful perceptions which counter the various unwholesome themes and it is good to learn them all so that you can direct you mind most skillfully at all times.
Well said, and well quoted :anjali:
SarathW
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Re: What to do about negative feelings?

Post by SarathW »

If your negative thoughts in relation to:

- Attachment then contemplate on Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta
- Aversion then practice Metta, Karuna, Muditha and Upekkha
- Ignorance then associate good friends so as to eliminate your doubts.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Dhammapardon
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Re: What to do about negative feelings?

Post by Dhammapardon »

User019336 wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 12:14 am
There are five primary ways
This clears up much confusion. :anjali:
SarathW wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 4:39 am If your negative thoughts in relation to:
Fear centered around hypochondria seems to be the general theme for many of my negative thoughts.
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
User019336
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Re: What to do about negative feelings?

Post by User019336 »

Dhammapardon wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 4:57 am Fear centered around hypochondria seems to be the general theme for many of my negative thoughts.
I guess the general issue there is agitation of the mind and the immediate hindrance is restlessness due to worrying.

You can find many resources about the overcoming of particular hindrances on this forum and in the texts.

Here is an excerpt from commentary to maha satipatthana sutta
Six things are conducive to the casting out of agitation and worry: Knowledge; questioning; understanding of disciplinary rules; association with those more experienced and older than oneself in the practice of things like virtue; sympathetic and helpful companionship and stimulating talk that helps the rejection of mental agitation and worry.
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Alino
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Re: What to do about negative feelings?

Post by Alino »

The problem is not in feeling itself, the problem is that our mind perceives them as negative or positive.

We want things that are "negative/unpleasant" to go away quickly, and things that "positive/pleasant" to stay longer.

But if we take objective point of view and see them as they are : anger feeling is felt just like this, it have such and such expression in the body, it exercise such and such pressure inside, it have such and such shape, such and such movement etc...

Closer we observe feelings, pleasant or unpleasant, clearer we see their changing nature, and while our mind observes how feelings change and fluctuate - it stop being affraid of it, it stops being thretebed by it, it stop being charmed by it, it stop believing it...

The problem are not arising feelings, the problem is that we believe in them and grasp them, but in reality they are just like a mirage, arising and passing away, they dont want us to feel pain, they dont want us to act or react, they just live their live, ariseng according their own causes and conditions.

Reactive mind is a suffering mind, fragile mind.

Of coarse if you have no opportunity to close your eyes, sit quietly and study dukkha nature, then its necessary to have good skills in:

- arousing of loving kindness (against anger)
- perception of unattractiveness of the body and drawbacks of sense stimulations (against sense desires)
- and reflections about our inevitable death (against delusion)

But if you are at home and can take your feeling as object of your study, then study it, fully open your mind to it, dont react on it, dont interpret it as good or bad, just observe how it is, how it comes, how it evolves, and most important - don't stop your observation untill it ceasse by its own ! Even if it takes you a whole day just sit with open clear mind, and observe it until it ceasses by its own. It is very important. Why? Because if it ceasses only when you apply antidotes - your mind will still belief that you need to act in order to see the cessation of this feeling, but if you are patient and clear enought, you mind will see : "Oh! I dont even touched it and it ceassed complitely by its own!" So while observing this cessation once, twice, trice... at one moment your mind will tel go of it ! Will no more be perturbed or pressured by it, it could feel something unpleasant but still operating normaly and not being threatened by it... The big dangerous lion will become a little cat...
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
User019336
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Re: What to do about negative feelings?

Post by User019336 »

Alino wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:47 am But if we take objective point of view and see them as they are : anger feeling is felt just like this, it have such and such expression in the body, it exercise such and such pressure inside, it have such and such shape, such and such movement etc...

Closer we observe feelings, pleasant or unpleasant, clearer we see their changing nature, and while our mind observes how feelings change and fluctuate - it stop being affraid of it, it stops being thretebed by it, it stop being charmed by it, it stop believing it...
I would warn against doing this because it runs the risk of giving unwholesome states unnecessary attention.

Whatever we give frequent attention becomes the inclination of the mind.

I think of this in terms of classical behavioral conditioning.

If i am training a dog and the dog gets agitated when other dogs bark at him then it is absolutely unnecessary for the dog to study how agitation feels in order to abandon that behavior.

I remove the dog from that situation, calm him down and work on developing skillful behaviors such as communication & trust.

When i later take him out where other dogs are misbehaving then my dog will hardly care about it because i have retrained him wisely and he will be happy about it.

This is really analogical to training a person.

When unwholesome states assail one then one's judgement is impaired and this is basically an emergency.
As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to Ven. Maha Moggallana, "Are you nodding, Moggallana? Are you nodding?"

"Yes, lord."

"Well then, Moggallana, whatever perception you have in mind when drowsiness descends on you, don't attend to that perception, don't pursue it. It's possible that by doing this you will shake off your drowsiness
While he is contemplating the body in the body, there arises in him, based on the body, either a fever in the body or sluggishness of mind, or the mind is distracted outwardly. That bhikkhu should then direct his mind towards some inspiring sign. When he directs his mind towards some inspiring sign, gladness is born. When he is gladdened, rapture is born. When the mind is uplifted by rapture, the body becomes tranquil. One tranquil in body experiences happiness. The mind of one who is happy becomes concentrated. He reflects thus: ‘The purpose for the sake of which I directed my mind has been achieved. Let me now withdraw it.’ So he withdraws the mind and does not think or examine. He understands: ‘Without thought and examination, internally mindful, I am happy.’
https://suttacentral.net/sn47.10/en/bod ... ight=false
We should habituate ourselves to calm & equanimity. Then things like lust & anger will feel much more acutely stressful and it is a good thing. You don't want to habituate yourself to tolerating those states.
Last edited by User019336 on Wed Jun 08, 2022 10:23 am, edited 6 times in total.
Alino
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Re: What to do about negative feelings?

Post by Alino »

Poison is dangerous while a hand is vounded.

The problem is not in phenomenas, the problem is in our reactions to them, our identification with them.

You warn against it because your mind is affraid of phenomenas, it idetify itself as being in feeling, but if we let feelings arise and ceasse, mind will withdraw from it, and "iam feeling this" will become "there is such feeling"...

It is a subtile but important difference. Wisdom should be developed in order to create necessary space between the mind and phenomenas that can arrise.

Phenomenas are not dangerous, they just live their own life, arise and ceasse acording to their own conditions. If we believe in them, if we are charmed by them, if we are affraid by them then we grasp them, if we grasp them we live with them and die with them... in order to understand anicca, dukkha, anatta we need to them die by themselves and being fully present during that process...
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
User019336
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Re: What to do about negative feelings?

Post by User019336 »

Alino wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:09 am Poison is dangerous while a hand is vounded.

The problem is not in phenomenas, the problem is in our reactions to them, our identification with them.

You warn against it because your mind is affraid of phenomenas, it idetify itself as being in feeling, but if we let feelings arise and ceasse, mind will withdraw from it, and "iam feeling this" will become "there is such feeling"...

It is a subtile but important difference. Wisdom should be developed in order to create necessary space between the mind and phenomenas that can arrise.

Phenomenas are not dangerous, they just live their own life, arise and ceasse acording to their own conditions. If we believe in them, if we are charmed by them, if we are affraid by them then we grasp them, if we grasp them we live with them and die with them... in order to understand anicca, dukkha, anatta we need to them die by themselves and being fully present during that process...
It's not merely me warning. Do you not see the sutta excerpts in this thread? Every one of them refutes your instruction.

Where is the textual basis for your teachings, who teaches it, are these the teachings of a Fully Awakened Buddha? Are these teachings found in the texts known to be true, are they found in the sutta or vinaya?

Because if they aren't then you probably should be teaching this as if they are.
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Alino
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Re: What to do about negative feelings?

Post by Alino »

It is about 1st Noble Truth - dukkha should be fully understood.

"To fully understood" means fully comprehend its anicca, dukkha, anatta nature. But our mind can not penetrate the truth of anicca if he dont have direct vision of how phenomena ceasses; it can not penetrate the thruth of dukkha if he avoid dukkha; it can not penetrate the truth of anatta if we try to manage/change/influence our experience.

What i suggested here is something that helped me to solve my problems of anxiety. But every body is free to apply it or not. 🙏
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
Dhammapardon
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Re: What to do about negative feelings?

Post by Dhammapardon »

User019336 wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 9:51 am
Alino wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:47 am But if we take objective point of view and see them as they are : anger feeling is felt just like this, it have such and such expression in the body, it exercise such and such pressure inside, it have such and such shape, such and such movement etc...

Closer we observe feelings, pleasant or unpleasant, clearer we see their changing nature, and while our mind observes how feelings change and fluctuate - it stop being affraid of it, it stops being thretebed by it, it stop being charmed by it, it stop believing it...
I would warn against doing this because it runs the risk of giving unwholesome states unnecessary attention.
Both are helpful insights to apply for my own situation.

Understanding what to do with the states when experienced. Understanding the nature of the states on a physiological level for better identification and realization of their changing nature.

It is also good to be warned in observing these states it may feed the state without care. Many times I have attempted to observe but become sidetracked and end up actively participating. Easy to go from observing a fire to stoking it for a better view.

:anjali:
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
User019336
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Re: What to do about negative feelings?

Post by User019336 »

Dhammapardon wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 8:34 am It is also good to be warned in observing these states it may feed the state without care. Many times I have attempted to observe but become sidetracked and end up actively participating. Easy to go from observing a fire to stoking it for a better view.

:anjali:
I don't want to argue about this because it's stressful but won't even give that it's a slippery slope, to that extent will i oppose it. It's as i understand a slope not fit to thread at all.
"Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one objectifies. Based on what a person objectifies, the perceptions & categories of objectification assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future forms cognizable via the eye.

"Dependent on ear & sounds, ear-consciousness arises...

"Dependent on nose & aromas, nose-consciousness arises...

"Dependent on tongue & flavors, tongue-consciousness arises...

"Dependent on body & tactile sensations, body-consciousness arises...

"Dependent on intellect & ideas, intellect-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one objectifies. Based on what a person objectifies, the perceptions & categories of objectification assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future ideas cognizable via the intellect.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Bhikkhus, whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of sensual desire, he has abandoned the thought of renunciation to cultivate the thought of sensual desire, and then his mind inclines to thoughts of sensual desire. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of ill will…upon thoughts of cruelty, he has abandoned the thought of non-cruelty to cultivate the thought of cruelty, and then his mind inclines to thoughts of cruelty.

“Just as in the last month of the rainy season, in the autumn, when the crops thicken, a cowherd would guard his cows by constantly tapping and poking them on this side and that with a stick to check and curb them. Why is that? Because he sees that he could be flogged, imprisoned, fined, or blamed if he let them stray into the crops. So too I saw in unwholesome states danger, degradation, and defilement, and in wholesome states the blessing of renunciation, the aspect of cleansing.
https://suttacentral.net/mn19/en/bodhi? ... ight=false
Dhammapardon
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Re: What to do about negative feelings?

Post by Dhammapardon »

User019336 wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 9:15 am
I don't want to argue about this because it's stressful but won't even give that it's a slippery slope, to that extent will i oppose it. It's as i understand a slope not fit to thread at all.
Bhikkhus, whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of sensual desire, he has abandoned the thought of renunciation to cultivate the thought of sensual desire, and then his mind inclines to thoughts of sensual desire. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of ill will…upon thoughts of cruelty, he has abandoned the thought of non-cruelty to cultivate the thought of cruelty, and then his mind inclines to thoughts of cruelty.

“Just as in the last month of the rainy season, in the autumn, when the crops thicken, a cowherd would guard his cows by constantly tapping and poking them on this side and that with a stick to check and curb them. Why is that? Because he sees that he could be flogged, imprisoned, fined, or blamed if he let them stray into the crops. So too I saw in unwholesome states danger, degradation, and defilement, and in wholesome states the blessing of renunciation, the aspect of cleansing.
https://suttacentral.net/mn19/en/bodhi? ... ight=false
I believe I see the error in my previous statement. In contemplating the warning and contemplating the slippery slope, it becomes the inclination of the mind. For some it may serve temporarily as a faulty intermediary step but it also serves as an obstacle for further understanding and if possible should not be pondered since pondering such a thing will become the inclination of the mind and is an abandonment of the thought of renunciation to cultivate a sense desire. The warning and the concept of the slippery slope are sense desires not to be pondered.
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
User019336
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Re: What to do about negative feelings?

Post by User019336 »

Dhammapardon wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 7:11 am
User019336 wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 9:15 am
I don't want to argue about this because it's stressful but won't even give that it's a slippery slope, to that extent will i oppose it. It's as i understand a slope not fit to thread at all.
Bhikkhus, whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of sensual desire, he has abandoned the thought of renunciation to cultivate the thought of sensual desire, and then his mind inclines to thoughts of sensual desire. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of ill will…upon thoughts of cruelty, he has abandoned the thought of non-cruelty to cultivate the thought of cruelty, and then his mind inclines to thoughts of cruelty.

“Just as in the last month of the rainy season, in the autumn, when the crops thicken, a cowherd would guard his cows by constantly tapping and poking them on this side and that with a stick to check and curb them. Why is that? Because he sees that he could be flogged, imprisoned, fined, or blamed if he let them stray into the crops. So too I saw in unwholesome states danger, degradation, and defilement, and in wholesome states the blessing of renunciation, the aspect of cleansing.
https://suttacentral.net/mn19/en/bodhi? ... ight=false
I believe I see the error in my previous statement. In contemplating the warning and contemplating the slippery slope, it becomes the inclination of the mind. For some it may serve temporarily as a faulty intermediary step but it also serves as an obstacle for further understanding and if possible should not be pondered since pondering such a thing will become the inclination of the mind and is an abandonment of the thought of renunciation to cultivate a sense desire. The warning and the concept of the slippery slope are sense desires not to be pondered.
Sadhu
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