It's not obvious to me how one would go about it other than by turning away from things which are something.anagaarika wrote: ↑Mon Jun 13, 2022 7:13 pm I´m not sure if I follow you - you say that nothingness can´t be contemplated by itself, but in the sutta you quote it is listed as a perception attainment. If it can be perceived, does it not imply it is also a "something"? Is this "nothing" (not akincayatana) not reserved only for the neither-perception-nor-non-perception, which really cannot be "perceived" as an object since it is somewhere between perceiving and non-percieving?
This generally how one trains for nirodha & nevasannanavasanna as well. One contemplates the drawbacks of the aggregates for a turning away, thinking; 'It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me. What is, what has come to be, that I abandon'
Rather than contemplating the nirodha or nevasannanavasanna itself thinking ' 'It should be, it should occur to me; it will be, it will occur to me.'
"There is the case, Ananda, where a monk, having practiced in this way — (thinking) 'It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me. What is, what has come to be, that I abandon' — obtains equanimity. He relishes that equanimity, welcomes it, remains fastened to it. As he relishes that equanimity, welcomes it, remains fastened to it, his consciousness is dependent on it, is sustained by it (clings to it). With clinging/sustenance, Ananda, a monk is not totally unbound."
"Being sustained, where is that monk sustained?"
"The dimension of neither perception nor non-perception."
"Then, indeed, being sustained, he is sustained by the supreme sustenance."
"Being sustained, Ananda, he is sustained by the supreme sustenance; for this — the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception — is the supreme sustenance. There is [however] the case where a monk, having practiced in this way — 'It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me. What is, what has come to be, that I abandon' — obtains equanimity. He does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it. As he does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it, his consciousness is not dependent on it, is not sustained by it (does not cling to it). Without clinging/sustenance, Ananda, a monk is totally unbound."
It is that contemplating of drawbacks that directs the mind to the Deathless. Therefore even after stream-entry one keeps doing that rather than contemplating the Nirodha;“Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, as not self. He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna.’
The attainment of the perception of nothingness is a feeling-state, it is that and that is something complete with attention, intention, contact & percipience. The contact is at the mind base, the ideation is the conception 'nothing' and one is percipient in this way 'There is nothing'."A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. A virtuous monk should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of stream-entry."
"Then which things should a monk who has attained stream-entry attend to in an appropriate way?"
"A monk who has attained stream-entry should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a monk who has attained stream-entry, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of once-returning."
"Then which things should a monk who has attained once-returning attend to in an appropriate way?"
[And so on up to Arahantship]
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The concept of Nothing is something in that it is a concept but it's nothing in particular, it's a unique concept in that, not sure how else to better put it.
