Kasina meditations

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
anagaarika
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Kasina meditations

Post by anagaarika »

Hello my noble friends,

I´ve been following this online retreat by Ajahn Sona from the Birken Forest Monastery dealing with the 4 elements and colour kasinas. As always, Ajahn explains these techniques in a very accessible way so I definitely do recommend it to all that might be interested:



I´ve listened to four talks so far and did a little bit of research myself. I´ve stumbled upon several issues/questions and would appreciate some input on those:

1) First of all, I understand there are different lists of the kasinas in the suttas and in the commentaries. The kasinas in the suttas are: earth, water, fire, air, blue, red, yellow, white, space, consciousness. In the commentaries though, the consciousness kasina is replaced by light. Does anyone have an explanation for that? And, more importantly, how is the consciousness kasina practiced? Unfortunately, Ajahn covers only the four natural elements and the four colours (maybe he´ll come to consciousness/light and space in the concluding talk...).

2) Does anyone here actually practice these things? I´m asking particularly about the colour kasinas. I am a very visual person so I´m considering giving the blue kasina a try, but I´m not sure if it´s worth the bother switching from my current practice. Would you say the transition from let´s say anapanasati to kasinas would be easier if you´re already somewhat established in your primary practice? What is your experience? Any reports are most welcome!

Cheers,

anagaarika
User019336
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Re: Kasina meditations

Post by User019336 »

I've planned a retreat in 2 weeks and will try to develop all of the kasina and the rest of arupajhana.

I've previously attained what i think is air kasina by doing anapanasati & defining the air element and plan trying to do the other elements in a similar non-commentarial fashion by giving a lot of attention to the bodily elements. If it doesn't work then i will maybe try the commentary methods.

I've heard a report of a person focusing on the hardness of his body and imagining the body to be part of the earth as if it's stone. Apparently there was some attainment to it and people were reportedly sitting for a long time absorbed in the perception of solidity.

I will try mastering the air totality before doing the other elements & space, leaving colors for last. I will leave the colors for last because i haven't decided how to approach it, there are a few options.

I do a lot of contemplation & asubha development, bodyparts & graveyard contemplation and that will be taking precedence over the kasina so it won't be my main focus. The kasina i will generally develop when restless, as to calm down just like i do with anapanasati in general.

As to daylight, i develop that perception as well as to wake myself up.

As to consciousness kasina, i don't really know, that one is obscure to me but i'll try to get the space and having ferreted out the space one should get the consciousness kasina as i understand it.

I don't really care about these attainments but my training has kind of boiled down to this. What i essentially want is to train any samadhi as to perfect the faculty and this seems like something worth trying.

Thanks for the videos, these are relevant to my interests:)
User019336
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Re: Kasina meditations

Post by User019336 »

I really don't like the commentary approach to this because in my opinion i should be able to develop these things using my mind and that even if i was to be imprisoned, my hands cut off & eyes poked out.

There are plenty of liquids right here in this very body, plenty of fire, plenty of solids, and plenty of space, so why isn't this good enough i ask...

As to colors too, there are bones, there is blood, there are veins, there is phlegm, mucus, this urine and whatnot, plenty of colors...

Another thing is that i've heard enough people teach the commentary approach but nobody tells me they've been successful. Maybe they don't want to reveal the attainments but i won't err of the side of that because i've no time to waste.

If people want to teach me something like this then i expect some sort of assurance otherwise i've to conclude that they don't care about rousing confidence in me.
anagaarika
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Re: Kasina meditations

Post by anagaarika »

User019336 wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 8:03 pm I've planned a retreat in 2 weeks and will try to develop all of the kasina and the rest of arupajhana.
Wow, sounds like you´re up to something really huge! I wish you the best of luck with that, hopefully two weeks will be enough!
User019336 wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 8:03 pm
As to consciousness kasina, i don't really know, that one is obscure to me but i'll try to get the space and having ferreted out the space one should get the consciousness kasina as i understand it.
This is something which is not clear to me either. Is there a relationship between viňňana-kasina meditation and 2nd arupa? Is the viňňana-kasina simply the means of achieving the 2nd arupa? And how exactly does one practice that? If I´m not mistaken, there are two routes decribed in the suttas: 1. Going through the 4 rupa jhanas and dropping individual factors/shifting the focus until one arrives at the neither-perception-nor-non-perception plane. 2. The contemplation of the village - the practitioner starts contemplating the "village", then the "forest", barren planet without biosphere, etc. etc. until one attains to the infinite space plane and from there one removes the attention from the space and arrives at the infinite consciousness. But kasina meditations, as far as I can understand, work with mental images, condensed representations of meditation objects. Even if you reject the commentarial approach, you would likely still work with the "essence" of earth ("earthiness") in the earth kasina meditation, with the blue colour in blue kasina etc. But how do you "condense" consciousness and what will the mental image be?
User019336
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Re: Kasina meditations

Post by User019336 »

anagaarika wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 5:27 am
User019336 wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 8:03 pm I've planned a retreat in 2 weeks and will try to develop all of the kasina and the rest of arupajhana.
Wow, sounds like you´re up to something really huge! I wish you the best of luck with that, hopefully two weeks will be enough!
Huge aspirations at least, let's see what comes out of it 😂
Is there a relationship between viňňana-kasina meditation and 2nd arupa? 
But how do you "condense" consciousness and what will the mental image be?
I assume that it's the same perception, the kasina & the arupa. Space being invisible i can't really 'envision' the difference between the space arupa and the vinnana arupa, other than some sort of a lack of mental affirmation tied to space making it more peaceful.

As i understand it, the point is to make the object of 'space' fade from the mind but retaining the perception of infinitude.
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User019336
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Re: Kasina meditations

Post by User019336 »

Even if you reject the commentarial approach
I want to clear up that i don't reject it, i haven't tried it and it wouldn't be right to reject it. I am just lacking confidence in that particular methodology at this point. I even assume that they do work, just seems roundabout to me.
If I´m not mistaken, there are two routes decribed in the suttas: 1. Going through the 4 rupa jhanas and dropping individual factors/shifting the focus until one arrives at the neither-perception-nor-non-perception plane. 2. The contemplation of the village - the practitioner starts contemplating the "village", then the "forest", barren planet without biosphere, etc. etc. until one attains to the infinite space plane and from there one removes the attention from the space and arrives at the infinite consciousness.
As i understand, it's all about what inclinations a person develops and there is no particular need to do them one by one in sequence.

As an example i believe that if a person practiced reflecting on the drawbacks of the body and bodily senses all whilst extolling to oneself the relative advantages of the formless, then the perceptions tied to form would be expected to fade from the mind.

The ascetics who trained with the bodhisatta generally feared bodily pleasure and worked for the arupa jhanas.

Thus as i understand there is really nothing stopping one from priming oneself to abandon percipience altogether, i think this is what mn106 teaches;
 Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One: "There is the case, lord, where a monk, having practiced in this way — 'It should not be, it should not occur to me;[2] it will not be, it will not occur to me.[3] What is, what has come to be, that I abandon' — obtains equanimity. Now, would this monk be totally unbound, or not?"

"A certain such monk might, Ananda, and another might not.'

"What is the cause, what is the reason, whereby one might and another might not?"

"There is the case, Ananda, where a monk, having practiced in this way — (thinking) 'It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me. What is, what has come to be, that I abandon' — obtains equanimity. He relishes that equanimity, welcomes it, remains fastened to it. As he relishes that equanimity, welcomes it, remains fastened to it, his consciousness is dependent on it, is sustained by it (clings to it). With clinging/sustenance, Ananda, a monk is not totally unbound."

"Being sustained, where is that monk sustained?"

"The dimension of neither perception nor non-perception."

"Then, indeed, being sustained, he is sustained by the supreme sustenance."

"Being sustained, Ananda, he is sustained by the supreme sustenance; for this — the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception — is the supreme sustenance. There is [however] the case where a monk, having practiced in this way — 'It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me. What is, what has come to be, that I abandon' — obtains equanimity. He does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it. As he does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it, his consciousness is not dependent on it, is not sustained by it (does not cling to it). Without clinging/sustenance, Ananda, a monk is totally unbound."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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User019336
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Re: Kasina meditations

Post by User019336 »

User019336 wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 6:31 am The ascetics who trained with the bodhisatta generally feared bodily pleasure and worked for the arupa jhanas.
Here is an excerpt explaining that they feared even the pleasure of the rupajhana so it is no wonder to me that they went straight to arupa
Then it occurred to me, ‘Whatever ascetics and brahmins have experienced painful, sharp, severe, acute feelings due to overexertion—whether in the past, future, or present—this is as far as it goes, no-one has done more than this. But I have not achieved any superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones by this severe, gruelling work. Could there be another path to awakening?’

Then it occurred to me, ‘I recall sitting in the cool shade of the rose-apple tree while my father the Sakyan was off working. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I entered and remained in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. Could that be the path to awakening?’ Stemming from that memory came the realization: ‘That is the path to awakening!’

Then it occurred to me, ‘Why am I afraid of that pleasure, for it has nothing to do with sensual pleasures or unskillful qualities?’ Then it occurred to me, ‘I’m not afraid of that pleasure, for it has nothing to do with sensual pleasures or unskillful qualities.’
https://suttacentral.net/mn85/en/sujato ... ript=latin
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Re: Kasina meditations

Post by User019336 »

you would likely still work with the "essence" of earth ("earthiness") in the earth kasina meditation, with the blue colour in blue kasina etc.
Yes, that i would. Just focusing on one element at a time, giving it a lot of attention so that the others fade from the mind.
"'A person has six properties.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? These are the six properties: the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, the wind property, the space property, the consciousness property. 'A person has six properties.' 
[...]
"And what is the earth property? The earth property can be either internal or external. What is the internal earth property? Anything internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, & sustained [by craving]: head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, membranes, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, contents of the stomach, feces, or anything else internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, and sustained: This is called the internal earth property. Now both the internal earth property & the external earth property are simply earth property. And that should be seen as it actually is present with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the earth property and makes the earth property fade from the mind.

"And what is the liquid property? The liquid property may be either internal or external. What is the internal liquid property? Anything internal, belonging to oneself, that's liquid, watery, & sustained: bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, oil, saliva, mucus, oil-of-the-joints, urine, or anything else internal, within oneself, that's liquid, watery, & sustained: This is called the internal liquid property. Now both the internal liquid property & the external liquid property are simply liquid property. And that should be seen as it actually is present with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the liquid property and makes the liquid property fade from the mind.

"And what is the fire property? The fire property may be either internal or external. What is the internal fire property? Anything internal, belonging to oneself, that's fire, fiery, & sustained: that by which [the body] is warmed, aged, & consumed with fever; and that by which what is eaten, drunk, consumed & tasted gets properly digested; or anything else internal, within oneself, that's fire, fiery, & sustained: This is called the internal fire property. Now both the internal fire property & the external fire property are simply fire property. And that should be seen as it actually is present with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the fire property and makes the fire property fade from the mind.

"And what is the wind property? The wind property may be either internal or external. What is the internal wind property? Anything internal, belonging to oneself, that's wind, windy, & sustained: up-going winds, down-going winds, winds in the stomach, winds in the intestines, winds that course through the body, in-and-out breathing, or anything else internal, within oneself, that's wind, windy, & sustained: This is called the internal wind property. Now both the internal wind property & the external wind property are simply wind property. And that should be seen as it actually is present with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the wind property and makes the wind property fade from the mind.

"And what is the space property? The space property may be either internal or external. What is the internal space property? Anything internal, belonging to oneself, that's space, spatial, & sustained: the holes of the ears, the nostrils, the mouth, the [passage] whereby what is eaten, drunk, consumed, & tasted gets swallowed, and where it collects, and whereby it is excreted from below, or anything else internal, within oneself, that's space, spatial, & sustained: This is called the internal space property. Now both the internal space property & the external space property are simply space property. And that should be seen as it actually is present with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the space property and makes the space property fade from the mind.

"There remains only consciousness: pure & bright. What does one cognize with that consciousness? One cognizes 'pleasure.' One cognizes 'pain.' One cognizes 'neither pleasure nor pain.' In dependence on a sensory contact that is to be felt as pleasure, there arises a feeling of pleasure. When sensing a feeling of pleasure, one discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling of pleasure.' One discerns that 'With the cessation of that very sensory contact that is to be felt as pleasure, the concomitant feeling — the feeling of pleasure that has arisen in dependence on the sensory contact that is to be felt as pleasure — ceases, is stilled.' In dependence on a sensory contact that is to be felt as pain... In dependence on a sensory contact that is to be felt as neither pleasure nor pain, there arises a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain. When sensing a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain.' One discerns that 'With the cessation of that very sensory contact that is to be felt as neither pleasure nor pain, the concomitant feeling — the feeling of neither pleasure nor pain that has arisen in dependence on the sensory contact that is to be felt as neither pleasure nor pain — ceases, is stilled.'
[...]
"One discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure & bright as this towards the dimension of the infinitude of space and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated. One discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure and bright as this towards the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated.'
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Re: Kasina meditations

Post by User019336 »

As i understsnd, when i do anapanasati i don't have to think 'this should be, this should occur to me' in regards to the air element. The mere fact that i am paying attention to the breath affirms that and it becomes the inclination of the mind.

As mentioned, i also define elements as a practice apart from anapanasati and am developing the perceptions of inconstancy, dukkha & not self. Therefore elements fade out by itself, i don't have to think about it. I just bring the air element into being by giving it attention and it becomes the inclination of the mind when there is an opening.
Last edited by User019336 on Mon Jun 13, 2022 7:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
anagaarika
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Re: Kasina meditations

Post by anagaarika »

User019336 wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 6:31 am
As i understand, it's all about what inclinations a person develops and there is no particular need to do them one by one in sequence.

As an example i believe that if a person practiced reflecting on the drawbacks of the body and bodily senses all whilst extolling to oneself the relative advantages of the formless, then the perceptions tied to form would be expected to fade from the mind.

The ascetics who trained with the bodhisatta generally feared bodily pleasure and worked for the arupa jhanas.

Thus as i understand there is really nothing stopping one from priming oneself to abandon percipience altogether (...)
This is another interesting issue, admittedly a bit off-topic, but in brief:

There seem to be opposing opinions among accomplished teachers on this. The first group argues that rupa and arupa jhanas are independent on each other and that they can indeed be developed separately, i.e. rupa jhanas are not a prerequisite for the arupas. Some teachers are rather inclusive in their approach in that they don´t consider these practices to be reserved only for very advanced monastics but try to make them accessible even for ordinary practitioners. Ajahan Punnadhammo comes to mind, although I would say that he may redefine these from hardcore jhanas to more accessible contemplations of certain aspects of mind (how much attenuated the mind can get). The second group of teachers regards arupas as something extremely difficult to achieve and to be developed only after the rupa jhanas have been mastered. A proponent of this approach would be Ajahn Brahm, for instance. I´m not saying whose take is correct, but obviously the latter excludes some 99,9% of Buddhist population as Ven. Brahm tends to make even the first rupa jhana almost impossible to reach, let alone these higher states.

What you write makes sense, though. On the other hand, in the Buddhist context, arupas are almost always mentioned in the sequence following the rupa jhanas, are they not? I.e. if the Buddha talks about these, he mostly says the adept goes through the 4 rupas and then if he so wishes can go on to the arupas... Is it not implied that the non-Buddhist ascetics also had to master the rupas first?
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Re: Kasina meditations

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anagaarika wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 7:14 am Is it not implied that the non-Buddhist ascetics also had to master the rupas first?
I don't think so based on the excerpt from mn85, nor is there any support for this assertion. I think it should be inferred that they absolutely didn't and even considered bodily pleasure to be an indulgence to be feared.

Bodhisatta had to think all the way back to childhood to recall the first jhana.
“Prince, before my awakening—when I was still unawakened but intent on awakening—I too thought: ‘Pleasure is not gained through pleasure; pleasure is gained through pain.’
https://suttacentral.net/mn85/en/sujato ... ript=latin
As i understand it, they were basically torturing the body to be liberated from it.
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Re: Kasina meditations

Post by User019336 »

On the other hand, in the Buddhist context, arupas are almost always mentioned in the sequence following the rupa jhanas, are they not?
I don't know if there are explicit exceptions to this and afaik nobody ever asked.

Mn106 might be the closest thing along with mn64 where reflecting on the mind as it is released in first jhana one attains cessation;
“And what, Ānanda, is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters? Here, with seclusion from the acquisitions, with the abandoning of unwholesome states, with the complete tranquillization of bodily inertia, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion.

“Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, as not self. He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna.’
https://suttacentral.net/mn64/en/bodhi
Also pannavimutti arahants don't have arupa jhana at all so it's clear that one can skip those arupajhanas going straight to nirodha
Now at that time several mendicants had declared their enlightenment in the Buddha’s presence: “We understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’”

Venerable Susīma heard about this. He went up to those mendicants, and exchanged greetings with them. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side and said to those mendicants, “Is it really true that the venerables have declared enlightenment in the Buddha’s presence?”

“Yes, reverend.”

[...]

“Well, knowing and seeing thus, do you have direct meditative experience of the peaceful liberations that are formless, transcending form?”

“No, reverend.”

“Well now, venerables, how could there be such a declaration when these things are not attained?”

“Reverend Susīma, we are freed by wisdom.”

“I don’t understand the detailed meaning of what you have said in brief. Please teach me this matter so I can understand the detailed meaning.”

“Reverend Susīma, whether you understand or not, we are freed by wisdom.”
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.70/en/suj ... ript=latin
so why wouldn't one be able to skip in general :shrug:

With all this in mind i think the burden of proof falls on those who claim otherwise.
anagaarika
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Re: Kasina meditations

Post by anagaarika »

So today I tried the blue kasina meditation for the first time and it was pretty impressive! It may have been just the beginner´s luck, but I found this method so much more natural than observing the breath. Since I really have a very visual mind, it was easy for me to very quickly settle on the kasina and simply open my mind to "blueness".

Image


Anyway, back to you, [name redacted by admin], and to question of the viňňana-kasina: Do you (or anybody else) have an idea how the viňňana-kasina might differ from the practice of 2nd arupa? I find it kind of strange that they should be completely identical - what would be the need to include the viňňana-kasina if this meditative attainment would have already been covered by the 2nd arupa? I wasn´t able to find any references to this, unfortunately. Maybe one of the venerables who read this thread could point them out to us?
User019336
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Re: Kasina meditations

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anagaarika wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 5:25 pm So today I tried the blue kasina meditation for the first time and it was pretty impressive! It may have been just the beginner´s luck, but I found this method so much more natural than observing the breath.
I am glad you found something that inspired you buddy!
anagaarika wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 5:25 pm Anyway, back to you, [name redacted by admin], and to question of the viňňana-kasina: Do you (or anybody else) have an idea how the viňňana-kasina might differ from the practice of 2nd arupa?
As i understand the sutta expression;

There are perception attainments which have 'an object' of percipience in a classical sense (aren't neither perception nor non perception or sannanirodha), these are to be reached as perception attainments.
"Monk, the property of light, the property of beauty, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of space, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the property of the dimension of nothingness: These properties are to be reached as perception attainments.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
All the color-visions such as daylight & colors are reckoned as light in opposition to darkness.
"Monk, the property of light is discerned in dependence on darkness. The property of beauty is discerned in dependence on the unattractive. The property of the dimension of the infinitude of space is discerned in dependence on form. The property of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness is discerned in dependence on the dimension of the infinitude of space. The property of the dimension of nothingness is discerned in dependence on the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. The property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is discerned in dependence on the dimension of nothingness. The property of the cessation of feeling & perception is discerned in dependence on cessation."
The object can be of rupa or arupa, it can be 'a something' or 'a nothing'.

The kasina are something, lights & visions are something, space is something, consciousness is something and nothing is nothing. The base of nothingness has the conception 'nothing' for perception object & foundation.

The difference between the two is that one can't contemplate 'nothingness' by itself because it is nothing and the mind is directed to the ayatana by turning away from 'somethings'.

Therefore as i understand it, kasinas would be reckoned as objects which are somethings and are unmixed, they are 'a totality' of somethings, unlike the asubha visions where one sees corpses or the visions of daylight.

Now as to
how the viňňana-kasina might differ from the practice of 2nd arupa?
As i understand it, one should say that the 2nd formless liberation occurs in dependence on the vinnana kasina.

It wouldn't be right to say 'i enter & abide in vinnana kasina', rather one would say 'i enter & abide in the 2nd formless liberation which has the vinnana kasina [totality] for object of perception. Thus the question doesn't apply.
anagaarika
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Re: Kasina meditations

Post by anagaarika »

User019336 wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 6:35 pm
The difference between the two is that one can't contemplate 'Nothingness' by itself because it is nothing and the mind is directed to the ayatana by turning away from 'somethings'.
"Monk, the property of light, the property of beauty, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of space, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the property of the dimension of nothingness: These properties are to be reached as perception attainments.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
I´m not sure if I follow you - you say that nothingness can´t be contemplated by itself, but in the sutta you quote it is listed as a perception attainment. If it can be perceived, does it not imply it is also a "something"? Is this "nothing" (not akincayatana) not reserved only for the neither-perception-nor-non-perception, which really cannot be "perceived" as an object since it is somewhere between perceiving and non-percieving?
User019336 wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 6:35 pm
Therefore as i understand it, kasinas would be reckoned as objects which are somethings and are unmixed, they are 'a totality' of somethings, unlike the asubha visions where one sees corpses or the visions of daylight.
Yes, this seems to be the consensus, but then again I have a difficulty grasping the very notion of infinite consciousness as an object of meditation. First of all, what confuses me is that the term viňňana is mostly used for the six kinds of consciousness and if I´m not mistaken, these were proclaimed by the Buddha to constitute the totality of our subjective experience. The consciousness (sense-consciousness) is said to arise when there is a contact with the sense object (even if it´s just a subtle thought or a mental tendency). And then we have viňňana in the viňňanacayatana which seems to be a totally different concept, although the same word is used. I apologize if I´m making it too complicated, but how is the notion of momentary consciousness arising with the sense-contact reconciled with this so called "infinite" consciousness which should, moreover, be completely divorced from the sense sphere?

User019336 wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 6:35 pm I have not made up my mind as to what the subha visions are but there are only a couple possibilities.
This may be unrelated, but aren´t the colour kasinas called "the signs of the beautiful"? At least that´s how Ajahn Sona talks about them in his talks. He tells a story about the monk who attained liberation by the sign of the beatiful (subha-vimutti?) using the yellow kasina (he was a goldsmith in many previous lives and loved the colour of gold so the Buddha gave him flowers to meditate on their yellow colour. He attained jhanas visualising their beautiful colours and when he emerged from his absorption after many hours, he saw the dead flowers in front of him and realised annica).
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