Dispassion towards 1st jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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confusedlayman
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Dispassion towards 1st jhana

Post by confusedlayman »

How can one be dispassion of 1st jhana? If someone is dispassion of 1st jhana is it possible he meditate in future?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Alino
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Re: Dispassion towards 1st jhana

Post by Alino »

It is said that if the jhana is not mature (when one can enter, abide and exit it at will), then dispassion towad the curent level of jhana can break it.
So one should develop dispassion to cutent level only if it is mature enought.

But i think that this process goes naturaly. More mind becomes refined, more coarse things are abandoned.
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
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confusedlayman
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Re: Dispassion towards 1st jhana

Post by confusedlayman »

Alino wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:00 pm It is said that if the jhana is not mature (when one can enter, abide and exit it at will), then dispassion towad the curent level of jhana can break it.
So one should develop dispassion to cutent level only if it is mature enought.

But i think that this process goes naturaly. More mind becomes refined, more coarse things are abandoned.
How defilements end using 1st jhana leading to non return state?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Alino
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Re: Dispassion towards 1st jhana

Post by Alino »

confusedlayman wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 7:33 pm
Alino wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:00 pm It is said that if the jhana is not mature (when one can enter, abide and exit it at will), then dispassion towad the curent level of jhana can break it.
So one should develop dispassion to cutent level only if it is mature enought.

But i think that this process goes naturaly. More mind becomes refined, more coarse things are abandoned.
How defilements end using 1st jhana leading to non return state?
What i have heard is that jhanas are only tools, their job is strengten our mind against arising defilement.
In other words when our mind is trained in stability and clarity (main features of samadhi) it then can observe arising, chaging and passing away of phenomenas as much clearly and openly as possible and without being caught in them (for me, i, mine), without grasping them etc. but just as object of our investigation : body just as body, feeling just as feeling, mind just as mind, dhammas just as dhammas.
It may be compared to protective gear while working with highly reactive chimicals, or viruses.

With the time, as we clearly and openly contemplate arising, changing and fading of phenomenas by them selves, again and again (the important thing here is to wisely endure the presence of defilements during the whole process, from their natural arising through their natural change, til their natural wanishing), our mind (which is quite stupid machine) can obtain critical amount of this data about nature of things (like machine-learning of artificial inteligence, its what actualy we do...) - and generate dispassion, detachment and let them go, clearly knowing that even the most ugliest or beautiful phenomenas are truly not me, not mine, not my self, they don't want me tu suffer or to feel good, they just feel as they feel, and they just live their own lives according to causes and conditions, nothing personal...

The problem are not defilements, but our reaction to them, our greed or aversion to how they feel, and delusion about what they are. Poison don't harm healthy hand.

So jhanas are some kind of protective gloves that let us manipulate dangerous things and also let the burned skin underneath to heal.
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
pegembara
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Re: Dispassion towards 1st jhana

Post by pegembara »

Rapture and pleasure. Is that all there is?
"There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
Jack19990101
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Re: Dispassion towards 1st jhana

Post by Jack19990101 »

Sure. One can practice samadhi instead of Jhana.
Ajahn Panna & his teaching Ajahn Maha Boowa maintains that
Jhana is only accessible to a sub group of meditators. It is not proportionally to effort.
Yet samadhi is available to all while proportionally to effort.

Samadhi vs Jhana, mainly is Piti/Sukha. Both piti/sukha are supramundane factors which is highly addictive to human species. Thus Jhana meditators would feel nothing strenuous in their practice.

Samadhi is very long mundane climb before calm kicks in. It requires discipline & willpower.
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confusedlayman
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Re: Dispassion towards 1st jhana

Post by confusedlayman »

Alino wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:56 am
confusedlayman wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 7:33 pm
Alino wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:00 pm It is said that if the jhana is not mature (when one can enter, abide and exit it at will), then dispassion towad the curent level of jhana can break it.
So one should develop dispassion to cutent level only if it is mature enought.

But i think that this process goes naturaly. More mind becomes refined, more coarse things are abandoned.
How defilements end using 1st jhana leading to non return state?
What i have heard is that jhanas are only tools, their job is strengten our mind against arising defilement.
In other words when our mind is trained in stability and clarity (main features of samadhi) it then can observe arising, chaging and passing away of phenomenas as much clearly and openly as possible and without being caught in them (for me, i, mine), without grasping them etc. but just as object of our investigation : body just as body, feeling just as feeling, mind just as mind, dhammas just as dhammas.
It may be compared to protective gear while working with highly reactive chimicals, or viruses.

With the time, as we clearly and openly contemplate arising, changing and fading of phenomenas by them selves, again and again (the important thing here is to wisely endure the presence of defilements during the whole process, from their natural arising through their natural change, til their natural wanishing), our mind (which is quite stupid machine) can obtain critical amount of this data about nature of things (like machine-learning of artificial inteligence, its what actualy we do...) - and generate dispassion, detachment and let them go, clearly knowing that even the most ugliest or beautiful phenomenas are truly not me, not mine, not my self, they don't want me tu suffer or to feel good, they just feel as they feel, and they just live their own lives according to causes and conditions, nothing personal...

The problem are not defilements, but our reaction to them, our greed or aversion to how they feel, and delusion about what they are. Poison don't harm healthy hand.

So jhanas are some kind of protective gloves that let us manipulate dangerous things and also let the burned skin underneath to heal.
Thanks for explaining very well.. pls comment on my future quaries so i can develop in this dhamma. Your style of explanation or language suits my understanding
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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NotMe
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Re: Dispassion towards 1st jhana

Post by NotMe »

pegembara wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:25 am Rapture and pleasure. Is that all there is?
"There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Rapture and pleasure not enough? - <grin> read what you posted there is:
"...qualities there are in the first jhana —
  • directed thought
    evaluation
    singleness of mind
    contact
    feeling
    perception
    intention
    consciousness
    [2] desire
    decision
    persistence
    mindfulness
    equanimity
    & attention
— he ferreted them out one after another." I cut the two already mentioned

And don't forget the *wobble* <grin> viewtopic.php?p=358315#p358315

:hello: pegembara! de ja view!
Slowlearner5
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Re: Dispassion towards 1st jhana

Post by Slowlearner5 »

Just umm thinking, any kind of activity like meditation and jhana or seeking jhana becomes an activity and a practice, but suppose the end of all seeking and activity is already in you such as seen during peaceful concentration, and it's more preferable.
There are monks who talk about the 4th arupa yet still here sitting and talking years later. Therefore it's not IT, they still live and meditate. They still practice Vipassana after that don't they, sharpening concentration while there's a body. There's no end to it and after death there's no end apparently. I think every life has it's limits to progress in meditation, but sometimes living in the world a bit more introduces new levels of emptiness, and deeper meditation later.
Citta is evolving imo. Meditation might be different across the aeons. It's universes are now so big by necessity, so physical life can develop over billions of earth years, without being hit by too many asteroids, which is the only reason we are aware of Citta right now. Pretty good I think. Just saying I think it's all happening whether you try or not.
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Re: Dispassion towards 1st jhana

Post by Pondera »

confusedlayman wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:21 pm How can one be dispassion of 1st jhana? If someone is dispassion of 1st jhana is it possible he meditate in future?
Because of impermanence.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
pudai
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Re: Dispassion towards 1st jhana

Post by pudai »

Jhana in my personal experience is just dreaming on the cushion; Attached to those states they become a wall that is hard or difficult to surpass... When you see them for what they are? Disenchantment arises and sitting returns to sitting, there's nothing magical or special in it to delude anyone about as it's reality.

It's is best to think of the four immeasurable as the four jhana... Not liberation; Those four existed before Gautama and are not his path. Whether it is the realm of preta, hell, animals, human, asura/deva one is free and is not the beginning nor does one depend on a beginning or delude others into thinking they or another is a beginning...

The self is the most difficult "heaven" to watch collapse but that does not mean one that has let that "self" die is a dog or slave... in fact just the opposite; Nothing mind made can ever make them suffer again whether it's origin is self or other; all delusion ends and all that is left is what was already there: reality and only reality.
The six senses accommodate; All the factors of existence... The All.
Apart from; The All... Nothing exists.
The senses are empty of a self & what belongs to a self.
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Re: Dispassion towards 1st jhana

Post by pudai »

Those dwelling in the eighth jhana are usually in a such sublime state of sukha to where the concept of discursive thinking required for 1st jhana is abhorrent and the very source of defilement and suffering known as samsara... similarly with the 2nd jhana where investigation is a requirement for it to occur,,, Then the third is equivalent to death where the being isn't even aware of it having occurred prompting the craving and grasping of beings for the 1st and 2nd jhana to reappear in the world. Aka the tri-lokka.

The fourth jhana is where someone is begged to teach such as Gautama was... Beyond that are the imperceptible formless realms only reached; Ironically... Through jhana.

:rofl:
The six senses accommodate; All the factors of existence... The All.
Apart from; The All... Nothing exists.
The senses are empty of a self & what belongs to a self.
DammaChakku
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Re: Dispassion towards 1st jhana

Post by DammaChakku »

Let me answer this from my own experience and understanding.

As I remember, Buddha has specifically stated that your attachment to Jhanas is not an attachment which involves “Thanha” or greed.

How? Regular attachments are heavily governed by 5 hindrances. They are directly influenced by the Thanha. However in Jhanas there are no such things involved.
Therefore, the rapture and other Jhanic factors are not counted as regular attachments.

It’s worth thinking about how an Arahanth can be happy and peaceful. They are not the regular kind of attachment.

Metta

DammaChakku
With Metta :heart:

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Eko Care
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Re: Dispassion towards 1st jhana

Post by Eko Care »

DammaChakku wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 4:01 pm As I remember, Buddha has specifically stated that your attachment to Jhanas is not an attachment which involves “Thanha” or greed.

How? Regular attachments are heavily governed by 5 hindrances. They are directly influenced by the Thanha. However in Jhanas there are no such things involved.
Therefore, the rapture and other Jhanic factors are not counted as regular attachments.

It’s worth thinking about how an Arahant can be happy and peaceful. They are not the regular kind of attachment.
Yes, I also think because the Bodhisatta once thought "why should I reject this Sukha?", in one of the suttas.
And it is stated as a "present sukha and future sukha" practices out of 4, in Mahakammasamadana sutta, as I remember.

There is Bhava-raga in Jhanas but Bhavaraga exists until Arahantship.

And in another sutta the Blessed One says "I say he is passionless, just because he attained a jhana", as I remember.

And in another sutta the Blessed One says "Alarakalama and Uddakramaputta are less-kilesa for a long period of time, so they can realize Dhamma quickly", as I remember.

Yes the Jhanic factors are not counted as regular attachments.

They can be sevitabba-tanha (passion to be associated),I guess, as in the sutta where venerable Ananda advises a cunning sick-nun.
:namaste:
DammaChakku
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Re: Dispassion towards 1st jhana

Post by DammaChakku »

Exactly!
Also, we should not forget the fact that Arahanths are enjoying unlimited “pleasure” . This is a very special type of pleasure which is free from attachments.
I can explain this in a new thread. This is a very fascinating set of knowledge.
With Metta :heart:

DhammaChakkhu
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