Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
asahi
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by asahi »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:43 pm The Buddha made mistakes. One of his mistakes lead to a number of monks killing themselves.
True , Buddha aint almighty God .
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Mr. Seek
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Mr. Seek »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:43 pm The Buddha made mistakes. One of his mistakes lead to a number of monks killing themselves.
Also I remember multiple vinaya allowances that were later on revoked. The ones concerning famines come to mind, but I can't provide any particular quotes. If someone's all-knowing they wouldn't specifically allow something only then later on to revoke said allowance. But who knows... guy might have had his reasons, or those particular texts may be inauthentic. I personally like the idea of perfect, omniscient, omnipotent buddhas, but oh well. Not really on-topic but meh.
Joe.c
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Joe.c »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:43 pm The Buddha made mistakes. One of his mistakes lead to a number of monks killing themselves.
Hm.. With this kind of thinking, I think it will be difficult to understand his teaching. :smile:

Well. That is how you see it. But, I didn’t see it that way.

If the student who didn’t follow the proper steps or understand the path, do you blame the instructor or the student?

You seem to blame the instructor.

If one hasn’t fully understand, one should ask lot of questions. Don’t blindly follow and assume one know.

Buddha made so many analogies in Sutta. Have you read MN 30 about the heartwood or MN 107 about the path pointer?
MN 30 wrote:…Suppose there was a person in need of heartwood. And while wandering in search of heartwood he’d come across a large tree standing with heartwood. But, passing over the heartwood, softwood, bark, and shoots, he’d cut off the branches and leaves and depart imagining they were heartwood. If a person with good eyesight saw him they’d say: ‘This gentleman doesn’t know what heartwood, softwood, bark, shoots, or branches and leaves are. That’s why he passed them over, cut off the branches and leaves, and departed imagining they were heartwood. Whatever he needs to make from heartwood, he won’t succeed.’

In the same way, take a certain person who goes forth from the lay life to homelessness, thinking: ‘I’m swamped by birth, old age, and death; by sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress. I’m swamped by suffering, mired in suffering. Hopefully I can find an end to this entire mass of suffering.’ When they’ve gone forth they generate possessions, honor, and popularity. They’re happy with that, and they’ve got all they wished for. And they glorify themselves and put others down on account of that: ‘I’m the one with possessions, honor, and popularity. These other mendicants are obscure and insignificant.’ They become lazy and slack regarding their possessions, honor, and popularity, not generating enthusiasm or trying to realize those things that are better and finer. … They’re like the person who mistakes branches and leaves for heartwood, I say.
MN 107 wrote:…When he had spoken, Moggallāna the Accountant said to the Buddha, “When his disciples are instructed and advised like this by Master Gotama, do all of them achieve the ultimate goal, extinguishment, or do some of them fail?”

Some succeed, while others fail.”

“What is the cause, Master Gotama, what is the reason why, though extinguishment is present, the path leading to extinguishment is present, and Master Gotama is present to encourage them, still some succeed while others fail?”

“Well then, brahmin, I’ll ask you about this in return, and you can answer as you like. What do you think, brahmin? Are you skilled in the road to Rājagaha?”

“Yes, I am.”

“What do you think, brahmin?
Suppose a person was to come along who wanted to go to Rājagaha.
He’d approach you and say: ‘Sir, I wish to go to Rājagaha. Please point out the road to Rājagaha.’

Then you’d say to them: ‘Here, mister, this road goes to Rājagaha. Go along it for a while, and you’ll see a certain village. Go along a while further, and you’ll see a certain town. Go along a while further and you’ll see Rājagaha with its delightful parks, woods, meadows, and lotus ponds.’ Instructed like this by you, they might still take the wrong road, heading west. But a second person might come with the same question and receive the same instructions. Instructed by you, they might safely arrive at Rājagaha.

What is the cause, brahmin, what is the reason why, though Rājagaha is present, the path leading to Rājagaha is present, and you are there to encourage them, one person takes the wrong path and heads west, while another arrives safely at Rājagaha?”

“What can I do about that, Master Gotama? I am the one who shows the way.

“In the same way, though extinguishment is present, the path leading to extinguishment is present, and I am present to encourage them, still some of my disciples, instructed and advised like this, achieve the ultimate goal, extinguishment, while some of them fail. What can I do about that, brahmin? The Realized One is the one who shows the way.…”
Hence make sure you know the complete path, not a partial path, not any assumption path. It is the N8FPath to end dukkhas.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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robertk
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by robertk »

asahi wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:35 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:43 pm The Buddha made mistakes. One of his mistakes lead to a number of monks killing themselves.
True , Buddha aint almighty God .
However the Buddha was omniscient and did not make mistakes.










There are some details in the commentary about this incident

Note 301 translation by Bodhi
Spk: Why did he speak thus? In the past, it is said, five
hundred men earned their living together as hunters. They
were reborn in hell, but later, through some good kamma,


they took rebirth as human beings and went forth as monks under the Blessed One. However, a portion of their
original bad kamma had gained the opportunity to ripen during this fortnight and was due to bring on their deaths
both by suicide and homicide. The Blessed One foresaw this and realized he could do nothing about it. Among
those monks, some were worldlings, some stream-enterers, some once-returners, some nonretumers, some arahants.

The arahants would not take rebirth, the other noble disciples were bound for a happy rebirth, but the worldlingswere of uncertain destiny. The Buddha spoke of foulness to remove their attachment to the body so that they would lose their fear of death and could thus be reborn in heaven.

Therefore he spoke on foulness in order to help them, notwith the intention of extolling death. Realizing he could not tum back the course of events, he went into seclusion

note 302 :
Spk adds that the
noble ones did not kill anyone, or enjoin others to consent to killing; it was only the worldlings who did so.
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cappuccino
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by cappuccino »

robertk wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:35 pm Therefore he spoke on foulness in order to help them
Right
Last edited by cappuccino on Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:27 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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NotMe
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by NotMe »

robertk wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:35 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:43 pm The Buddha made mistakes. One of his mistakes lead to a number of monks killing themselves.
True , Buddha aint almighty God .
However the Buddha was omniscient and did not make mistakes.
...
they took rebirth as human beings and went forth as monks under the Blessed One. However, a portion of their
original bad kamma had gained the opportunity to ripen during this fortnight and was due to bring on their deaths
both by suicide and homicide. The Blessed One foresaw this and realized he could do nothing about it. Among
those monks, some were worldlings, some stream-enterers, some once-returners, some nonretumers, some arahants.

The arahants would not take rebirth, the other noble disciples were bound for a happy rebirth, but the worldlingswere of uncertain destiny. The Buddha spoke of foulness to remove their attachment to the body so that they would lose their fear of death and could thus be reborn in heaven.

Therefore he spoke on foulness in order to help them, notwith the intention of extolling death. Realizing he could not tum back the course of events, he went into seclusion

note 302 :
Spk adds that the
noble ones did not kill anyone, or enjoin others to consent to killing; it was only the worldlings who did so.
Dispelling my ignorance! Gratitude.

Metta

:anjali:
asahi
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by asahi »

robertk wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:35 pm
asahi wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:35 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:43 pm The Buddha made mistakes. One of his mistakes lead to a number of monks killing themselves.
True , Buddha aint almighty God .
However the Buddha was omniscient and did not make mistakes.
It is understandable how you try to rationalise it . All knowing only refers to dhamma not all worldly knowledge .
No bashing No gossiping
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robertk
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by robertk »

NotMe wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:56 pm [quote=robertk post_id=682251 time=165616
[

Dispelling my ignorance! Gratitude.

Metta

:anjali:
:anjali:
Ontheway
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Ontheway »

robertk wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:35 pm
asahi wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:35 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:43 pm The Buddha made mistakes. One of his mistakes lead to a number of monks killing themselves.
True , Buddha aint almighty God .
However the Buddha was omniscient and did not make mistakes.










There are some details in the commentary about this incident

Note 301 translation by Bodhi
Spk: Why did he speak thus? In the past, it is said, five
hundred men earned their living together as hunters. They
were reborn in hell, but later, through some good kamma,


they took rebirth as human beings and went forth as monks under the Blessed One. However, a portion of their
original bad kamma had gained the opportunity to ripen during this fortnight and was due to bring on their deaths
both by suicide and homicide. The Blessed One foresaw this and realized he could do nothing about it. Among
those monks, some were worldlings, some stream-enterers, some once-returners, some nonretumers, some arahants.

The arahants would not take rebirth, the other noble disciples were bound for a happy rebirth, but the worldlingswere of uncertain destiny. The Buddha spoke of foulness to remove their attachment to the body so that they would lose their fear of death and could thus be reborn in heaven.

Therefore he spoke on foulness in order to help them, notwith the intention of extolling death. Realizing he could not tum back the course of events, he went into seclusion

note 302 :
Spk adds that the
noble ones did not kill anyone, or enjoin others to consent to killing; it was only the worldlings who did so.
:goodpost:

One who doubting the omniscience of the Buddha can never gain the true confidence (Saddha) in the Buddha.
Dp-pics_page432_image180c.jpg
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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robertk
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by robertk »

asahi wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:05 pm
robertk wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:35 pm
asahi wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:35 pm
True , Buddha aint almighty God .
However the Buddha was omniscient and did not make mistakes.
It is understandable how you try to rationalise it . All knowing only refers to dhamma not all worldly knowledge .
Patisambhidamagga
Ch
72 (p. 131):
What is the Perfect One's omniscient knowledge?
It knows without exception all that is formed and unformed, thus it is
omniscient knowledge: it is without obstruction there, thus it is
unobstructed knowledge.
All that is past it knows, thus it is omniscient knowledge: it is without
obstruction there, thus it is unobstructed knowledge.
All that is future it knows,...
All that is presently-arisen it knows...
Eye and visible objects: all that it knows...
Ear and sounds: all that it knows...
Nose and odours:all that it knows...
Tongue and flavours:all that it knows...
Body and tangible objects: all that it knows...
Mind and ideas (dhammas): all that it knows...>
After that the objects are the extent of the meaning of the three
characteristics of dhammas, knowledge of the extent of the meaning of direct
knowledge, etc. , of the khandhas, dhatus, bases (ayatanas) etc.
......
To the extent of what is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, encountered,
sought, considered by the mind, in the world with its deities, its Maras and
its Brahma Gods, in this genertaion with its ascetics and brahmans, with its
princes and men: all that it knows, thus it is omniscient knowledge: it is
without obstruction there, thus it is unobstructed knowledge.

Here in this world is naught unseen by him,
Naught uncognized, and naught unknowable;
He has experienced all that can be known:
Therefore the Perfect One is called All-seer.
asahi
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by asahi »

robertk wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:50 pm
asahi wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:05 pm
robertk wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:35 pm
However the Buddha was omniscient and did not make mistakes.
It is understandable how you try to rationalise it . All knowing only refers to dhamma not all worldly knowledge .
Patisambhidamagga
Ch
72 (p. 131):
What is the Perfect One's omniscient knowledge?
It knows without exception all that is formed and unformed, thus it is
omniscient knowledge: it is without obstruction there, thus it is
unobstructed knowledge.
All that is past it knows, thus it is omniscient knowledge: it is without
obstruction there, thus it is unobstructed knowledge.
All that is future it knows,...
All that is presently-arisen it knows...
Eye and visible objects: all that it knows...
Ear and sounds: all that it knows...
Nose and odours:all that it knows...
Tongue and flavours:all that it knows...
Body and tangible objects: all that it knows...
Mind and ideas (dhammas): all that it knows...>
After that the objects are the extent of the meaning of the three
characteristics of dhammas, knowledge of the extent of the meaning of direct
knowledge, etc. , of the khandhas, dhatus, bases (ayatanas) etc.
......
To the extent of what is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, encountered,
sought, considered by the mind, in the world with its deities, its Maras and
its Brahma Gods, in this genertaion with its ascetics and brahmans, with its
princes and men: all that it knows, thus it is omniscient knowledge: it is
without obstruction there, thus it is unobstructed knowledge.

Here in this world is naught unseen by him,
Naught uncognized, and naught unknowable;
He has experienced all that can be known:
Therefore the Perfect One is called All-seer.
Precisely it is all about dhamma . :popcorn:
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mjaviem
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by mjaviem »

People, a Buddha and arahants can't possibly make mistakes. To make a mistake you need greed and hatred in your heart and delusion in your mind. Without this, it's like blaming nature for the killings and the loss that a tsunami or any other natural disaster brings.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:25 pm People, a Buddha and arahants can't possibly make mistakes. To make a mistake you need greed and hatred in your heart and delusion in your mind. Without this, it's like blaming nature for the killings and the loss that a tsunami or any other natural disaster brings.
The Buddha taught a meditation subject that was inappropriate for a certain group of monks and nuns. When he came back, many had killed themselves. That is a mistake. That’s fine though (not the suicides, obviously). Buddhas and Arahants can make mistakes. The Buddhas first approach to teaching the others Dhamma was also a mistake.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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cappuccino
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:42 pm When he came back, many had killed themselves. That is a mistake.
He was merely saying the body is foul


People go out of their way to misunderstand
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:49 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:42 pm When he came back, many had killed themselves. That is a mistake.
He was merely saying the body is foul


People go out of their way to misunderstand
Yes they do, but if he was all knowing all of the time he should have known that. The Buddha isn’t all knowing all of the time though. He could simply know something if he put his mind to it. On this occasion, he didn’t know that the meditation object was unsuitable for the audience. He was ignorant in that regard, and so made a fatal mistake.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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