Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
atipattoh
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by atipattoh »

Alex123 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:52 pm I was also surprised, lets look at MN#1 again:
A commoner "perceives" while a trainee and arahant "directly knows" earth as earth and the whole totality of experience.
The Blessed One said: “There is the case, monks, where an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person—who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for people of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma—perceives earth as earth.
...
“A monk who is a Worthy One, devoid of effluents—who has attained completion, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, destroyed the fetters of becoming, and is released through right knowledge—directly knows earth as earth.
MN1
"I was also surprised! IMHO?" ... :roll:
You are surprised because you are confused?

"perceives earth as earth" -
is like magic, the external sense field is taken to be real. You gets wow here wow there!

"directly knows earth as earth' -
is knowing and seeing that it is a trick, when you understand it's trick, ah, simple only lah.... You grow dispassion toward magic trick!
But then, how do you know the magic trick, you don't even want to see how it happened?

Take 'movement' for example. How does it works internally? Do you think that if you imaging something moving, you will have a vision of it? That is not how it works! In fact, how do you imaging "movement" as object? You cannot. You need an object that moves.

You follow your breath, materiality assimilation has a visual aspect of it, where there is mind as consciousness to this rūpanimitta.

Rūpanimitta, is materiality assimilation; the mind perceives the world through materiality assimilation! If you don't want to know how the mind works, how is it that you are going to know earth as earth, directly in internal sense field? How else would directly means, if not direct vision? If you reject vision up front, how is it that you are going to revert to mind sense field? Without that, how is it that you are going to gain knowledge, wisdom, realization?
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Alex123
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Alex123 »

atipattoh wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:36 pm "I was also surprised! IMHO?" ... :roll:
You are surprised because you are confused?
There are various cryptic phrases about awakening that can be interpreted in various ways. In any case as I've said before: Bare 6 senses do function. Obviously. Just without additional layers of wrong views/etc.

IMHO.
atipattoh
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by atipattoh »

Alex123 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:48 pm
The word (directly) it self has direct meaning, no metaphor involves, aka direct vision.
What then, is 'directly' , for you?
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Alex123
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Alex123 »

atipattoh wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:00 pm
Alex123 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:48 pm
The word (directly) it self has direct meaning, no metaphor involves, aka direct vision.
What then, is 'directly' , for you?
It means seeing without saññā-vipallāsa, for example.
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NotMe
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by NotMe »

Alex123 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:03 pm
atipattoh wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:00 pm
Alex123 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:48 pm
The word (directly) it self has direct meaning, no metaphor involves, aka direct vision.
What then, is 'directly' , for you?
It means seeing without saññā-vipallāsa, for example.
Had to look it up-

"There are 3 kinds of vipallāsas viz. saññā˚; perversion of perception, citta˚; of thought diṭṭhi˚; of views; AN.ii.52; Ne.85; Vism.683. See the same under vipariyesa!" from suttacentral.

Metta

:anjali:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Alex123 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:03 pm
atipattoh wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:00 pm
Alex123 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:48 pm
The word (directly) it self has direct meaning, no metaphor involves, aka direct vision.
What then, is 'directly' , for you?
It means seeing without saññā-vipallāsa, for example.
I agree. They see form without craving, notions of self and views.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
atipattoh
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by atipattoh »

Alex123 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:03 pm It means seeing without saññā-vipallāsa, for example.
How do you do that, practically?
And how do you arrive at directly knows earth as earth? What is your this earth?
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Alex123
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Alex123 »

atipattoh wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:12 pm
Alex123 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:03 pm It means seeing without saññā-vipallāsa, for example.
How do you do that, practically?
And how do you arrive at directly knows earth as earth? What is your this earth?
The Noble Eightfold Path, does it. No "one" to do or walk on it, though. Magga-phala will remove and/or weaken vipallāsa until they are totally absent at arahatta-phala.
atipattoh
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by atipattoh »

Alex123 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:17 pm
atipattoh wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:12 pm
Alex123 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:03 pm It means seeing without saññā-vipallāsa, for example.
How do you do that, practically?
And how do you arrive at directly knows earth as earth? What is your this earth?
The Noble Eightfold Path, does it. No "one" to do or walk on it, though. Magga-phala will remove and/or weaken vipallāsa until they are totally absent at arahatta-phala.
Ah yes, Noble Eightfold Path.
How do you come to that especially on samadhi? Or you don't need samadhi?
“But what’s the purpose and benefit of immersion?”

“Truly knowing and seeing …”

“But what’s the purpose and benefit of truly knowing and seeing?”

“Disillusionment …”

“But what’s the purpose and benefit of disillusionment?”

“Dispassion …”

“But what’s the purpose and benefit of dispassion?”

“Knowledge and vision of freedom is the purpose and benefit of dispassion.
Again, what is this earth to you?
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Alex123
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Alex123 »

atipattoh wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:23 pm Ah yes, Noble Eightfold Path.
How do you come to that especially on samadhi? Or you don't need samadhi?
Samadhi as part of Noble Eightfold Path is required. The details of it would take quite a bit.

The important aspect of samadhi is to focus on the characteristics rather than mechanistically just absorbing into an object and not doing anything more.
atipattoh
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by atipattoh »

Alex123 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:28 pm The important aspect of samadhi is to focus on the characteristics rather than mechanistically just absorbing into an object and not doing anything more.
So you can focus on characteristics, without attaining rupajhana first?
If this is so, you have not master mind reverting skill, how can you focus on the characteristics directly?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Alex123 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:28 pm The important aspect of samadhi is to focus on the characteristics rather than mechanistically just absorbing into an object and not doing anything more.
No one suggests this.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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NotMe
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by NotMe »

atipattoh wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:23 pm Again, what is this earth to you?
Barging right in here - The goose that lays the golden eggs - tarnished and covered in the muck of the world - diamonds in the rough none the less.

Metta

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atipattoh
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by atipattoh »

I am not sure if Alex did try to understand what I was saying in this post
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Alex123
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Alex123 »

atipattoh wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:32 pm So you can focus on characteristics, without attaining rupajhana first?
You can try... But the more developed the samadhi the more result it will bring. I'd recommend going "as deep" as you can. Not everyone is ugghaṭitaññu or vipañcitaññu.
atipattoh wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:32 pm If this is so, you have not master mind reverting skill, how can you focus on the characteristics directly?
What did you mean by "master mind reverting skill" ? Can you, please, re-state your question?
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