Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Spiny Norman
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Spiny Norman »

Alex123 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:03 pm
atipattoh wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:00 pm
Alex123 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:48 pm
The word (directly) it self has direct meaning, no metaphor involves, aka direct vision.
What then, is 'directly' , for you?
It means seeing without saññā-vipallāsa, for example.
Looking at the final paragraphs of MN1, knowing directly seems to mean knowing the object without any form of identification or self-reference. With "no you there", as the Bahiya Sutta puts it
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Alex123
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Alex123 »

Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:51 pm
Alex123 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:03 pm
atipattoh wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:00 pm
The word (directly) it self has direct meaning, no metaphor involves, aka direct vision.
What then, is 'directly' , for you?
It means seeing without saññā-vipallāsa, for example.
Looking at the final paragraphs of MN1, knowing directly seems to mean knowing the object without any form of identification or self-reference. With "no you there", as the Bahiya Sutta puts it
Yes. without [Diṭṭhi, Saññā, Citta]-Vipallāsa .
atipattoh
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by atipattoh »

Alex123 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:49 pm You can try... But the more developed the samadhi the more result it will bring. I'd recommend going "as deep" as you can. Not everyone is ugghaṭitaññu or vipañcitaññu.
Then, it is not 'directly', isn't it?
People see things within concept, how to see differently if not deep enough?

Frankly speaking, if one can not get deep enough, is perfectly alright. But one should not treat a sutta that says one thing as saying differently to suit his practice.
What did you mean by "master mind reverting skill" ? Can you, please, re-state your question?
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by auto »

Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:51 pm Looking at the final paragraphs of MN1, knowing directly seems to mean knowing the object without any form of identification or self-reference. With "no you there", as the Bahiya Sutta puts it
Identification(kaya) is produced by experiencing the result of kamma done in the past. Simply by being under the sun, there will develop a kaya.
In case of sense organs, any visible form acts just like the sun, and the kaya is formed within your own body.
Or take Indaka question,
https://suttacentral.net/sn10.1/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: “The Buddhas say that form is not the soul.
“Rūpaṁ na jīvanti vadanti buddhā,
Then how does this body manifest?
Kathaṁ nvayaṁ vindatimaṁ sarīraṁ;
rupa is the external thing what is seen
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.10.than.html wrote: "Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen.
Jack19990101
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Jack19990101 »

I think Piti is the sign if we are ready to practice Jhana.

I don't think Piti is curated by techniques. I think it is by insight & wisdom, by sati.
The practice would be sati. Maybe after a long cumulation of meditation, Piti would declare its arrival, or make itself obvious. As to the amount of cumulation, hard to tell but I would guess the unit is kh.

In general and imo - Piti is the lack of earth element. Or at least dramatic reduction of sensitivity to earth element.
Jack19990101
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Jack19990101 »

Once Piti makes itself obvious, it behaves much inline with a 'faculty'
In faculty of eyes, we open them, we see.
For the same manner,
in 'faculty' of piti, we sit in seclusion, piti manifests.
BrokenBones
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by BrokenBones »

Along the lines of my OP...



I don't always understand what the Venerable is teaching but I think this short video is pretty clear.
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by BrokenBones »



A wonderful introduction to Buddha's 'method'.
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Johann
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Johann »

BrokenBones wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:46 am Just a few thoughts on jhana...

If anyone has undertaken a thorough reading of the suttas then several thing stands out...

The path is gradual.

It's even dependend-originated, this path, good householder. Dukkha-Saddha-Pamojja-Piti-Passadha-Sukha-Samadhi...Liberation... If anyone gains right view, this path developes.
Or another pattern: Sila-Freedom from remorse-Pamojja-Piti... or leaving home-pamojja-.... It wouldn't work otherwise.

Surrender (Saddha) - Joy - Satisfied - Stilled - heal - Samadhi ...

btw. Mudita, that possible having discovered the path. So just Dukkha needs to be met, if no effort further yet, good still on householder.
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frank k
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by frank k »

Rather than going by what you think, why not read the suttas and see how the Buddha describes how pīti is volitionally produced by right types of thinking generated from samma sankappa and the vitakka and vicara of first jhana?
https://lucid24.org/sted/7sb/4piti/book/index.html

Also see SN 47.10, and a ton of sutta references here how vitakka and vicara are used to generate pīti
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/smd1/index.html


Jack19990101 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:56 pm I think Piti is the sign if we are ready to practice Jhana.

I don't think Piti is curated by techniques. I think it is by insight & wisdom, by sati.
The practice would be sati. Maybe after a long cumulation of meditation, Piti would declare its arrival, or make itself obvious. As to the amount of cumulation, hard to tell but I would guess the unit is kh.

In general and imo - Piti is the lack of earth element. Or at least dramatic reduction of sensitivity to earth element.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
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Johann
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Johann »

frank k wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 11:28 am Rather than going by what you think, why not read the suttas and see how the Buddha describes how pīti is volitionally produced by right types of thinking generated from samma sankappa and the vitakka and vicara of first jhana?
https://lucid24.org/sted/7sb/4piti/book/index.html

Also see SN 47.10, and a ton of sutta references here how vitakka and vicara are used to generate pīti
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/smd1/index.html
Jack19990101 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:56 pm I think Piti is the sign if we are ready to practice Jhana.

I don't think Piti is curated by techniques. I think it is by insight & wisdom, by sati.
The practice would be sati. Maybe after a long cumulation of meditation, Piti would declare its arrival, or make itself obvious. As to the amount of cumulation, hard to tell but I would guess the unit is kh.

In general and imo - Piti is the lack of earth element. Or at least dramatic reduction of sensitivity to earth element.
"volitionally produced..." not directly, or lets say independent, good householder. As the Sublime Buddha declared in the Cetana Sutta: no need for an act of will, when the condition arises (no fault).
"...For a person free from remorse, there is no need for an act of will, 'May joy arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that joy arises in a person free from remorse....
Right effort goes again back to the basics, Saddha or Sila (right view), leaving home, "world" first (sati is as well such way).
"One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort...
"One tries to abandon wrong resolve & to enter into right resolve: This is one's right effort...
"One tries to abandon wrong speech & to enter into right speech: This is one's right effort...
"One tries to abandon wrong action & to enter into right action: This is one's right effort...
"One tries to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter into right livelihood: This is one's right effort."
It's always the same wheel, yet with different words for different pattern of perception.

Satipaṭṭhāna (another way of telling same pattern) leads as well toward the 7 factors of awakening.
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frank k
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by frank k »

What AN 11.2 is describing is that the 7 awakening factors, when practiced well, will automatically produce partial jhāna all the time, in all postures without a need for a volition to enter jhāna or generate pīti or sukha.

The post I was responding to, is likely based on erroneous LBT Theravada ideas that one should stare at a kasina if one hopes for pīti to arise, and not think verbal thoughts at all because thoughts are antithetical to first jhāna (of heterodox redefined jhāna). This kind of teaching is totally against the holistic and gradual way jhāna is developed in the EBT (early buddhist teachings).

Before the type of result from AN 11.2 can be expected, the beginner's untrained mind starts off in the state of not being able to control thoughts. The mind is just running wildly. (see MN 18)
So the essential skill to develop for developing first jhāna. see the next sutta MN 19. One learns to replace and prevent wrong thoughts, and always have 3 categories of right thoughts instead. ONe doensn't just shut the mind down, stare at a kasina, hope the body disappears and enters a frozen stupor. That's not the Buddha's way, that's some twisted non Buddhist method of training the mind that divorces samatha and vipassana.
MN 19 instructs further that to fulfill the passadhi/pacification awakening factor, to properly enter first jhāna, one has to also have bodily pacification and mental pacification. Learning to replace wrong thoughts with good ones takes care of most of the mental pacification, but one more step there is to slow down and calm the thoughts so that they're not too intense, otherwise that disturbs the body and prevents bodily passaddhi.
When both body are mind are pacified with right thoughts on Dhamma, then you have overlap with AN 11.2.

The next sutta, MN 20 gives you a few more tools to deal with how to progress beyond first jhāna. Again, the skill has to do with training the mind to master thoughts, to (verbally) think what one wants to think, and not think what one doesn't want to. It's not about becoming a master of staring at kasinas and turning your brain off to go into a frozen disembodied stupor. The gradual development of the 4 jhānas is holistic and integrated with the noble eightfold path. One learns to progress beyond higher jhānas by deepening the seeing of dukkha, seeing the danger of wrong thoughts. Not to trust cult leaders, stare at kasinas and shut your brain off. That kind of approach does not deepen understanding and seeing of dukkha, and only provides an escapist temporary vacation from dukkha if one has the samatha kung fu to do that. But once one leaves a frozen disembodied stupor, your existential problems are still there waiting to attack.

Along with MN 20, there are SN 47.10, and many other suttas as I linked in the references quoted that show how vitakka and vicāra are verbal thoughts of first jhāna that one actively trains as a holistic integrated part of noble eightfold path to think beneficial thoughts related to Dhamma, to deepen seeing of dukkha, and to generate pīti, rapture, a mental factor, as needed when one needs to lubricate the mind with joy.

Pīti, unlike the wrong teachings of LBT theravada kasina samatha to enter frozen disembodied stupor, is mentally produced, produced intentionally by using subverbal or verbal thoughts that generate mental joy that delights in Dhamma related themes. When third jhāna or higher becomes one's default state, then one does not need to rely on vitakka and pīti, and AN 11.2 would be more accurately describing this situation. But you need to walk before you can run, you and you need to stand up before you can walk.



SamanaJohann_ wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 1:37 pm
frank k wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 11:28 am Rather than going by what you think, why not read the suttas and see how the Buddha describes how pīti is volitionally produced by right types of thinking generated from samma sankappa and the vitakka and vicara of first jhana?
https://lucid24.org/sted/7sb/4piti/book/index.html

Also see SN 47.10, and a ton of sutta references here how vitakka and vicara are used to generate pīti
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/smd1/index.html
Jack19990101 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:56 pm I think Piti is the sign if we are ready to practice Jhana.

I don't think Piti is curated by techniques. I think it is by insight & wisdom, by sati.
The practice would be sati. Maybe after a long cumulation of meditation, Piti would declare its arrival, or make itself obvious. As to the amount of cumulation, hard to tell but I would guess the unit is kh.

In general and imo - Piti is the lack of earth element. Or at least dramatic reduction of sensitivity to earth element.
"volitionally produced..." not directly, or lets say independent, good householder. As the Sublime Buddha declared in the Cetana Sutta: no need for an act of will, when the condition arises (no fault).
"...For a person free from remorse, there is no need for an act of will, 'May joy arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that joy arises in a person free from remorse....
Right effort goes again back to the basics, Saddha or Sila (right view), leaving home, "world" first (sati is as well such way).
"One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort...
"One tries to abandon wrong resolve & to enter into right resolve: This is one's right effort...
"One tries to abandon wrong speech & to enter into right speech: This is one's right effort...
"One tries to abandon wrong action & to enter into right action: This is one's right effort...
"One tries to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter into right livelihood: This is one's right effort."
It's always the same wheel, yet with different words for different pattern of perception.

Satipaṭṭhāna (another way of telling same pattern) leads as well toward the 7 factors of awakening.
Last edited by frank k on Sun Jul 10, 2022 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Johann
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Johann »

frank k wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 12:43 pm What AN 11.2 is describing is that the 7 awakening factors, when practiced well, will automatically produce partial jhāna all the time, in all postures without a need for a volition to enter jhāna or generate pīti or sukha.

The post I was responding to, is likely based on erroneous LBT Theravada ideas that one should stare at a kasina if one hopes for pīti to arise, and not think verbal thoughts at all because thoughts are antithetical to first jhāna (of heterodox redefined jhāna). This kind of teaching is totally against the holistic and gradual way jhāna is developed in the EBT (early buddhist teachings).

Before the type of result from AN 11.2 can be expected, the beginner's untrained mind starts off in the state of not being able to control thoughts. The mind is just running wildly. (see MN 18)
So the essential skill to develop for developing first jhāna. see the next sutta MN 19. One learns to replace and prevent wrong thoughts, and always have 3 categories of right thoughts instead. ONe doensn't just shut the mind down, stare at a kasina, hope the body disappears and enters a frozen stupor. That's not the Buddha's way, that's some twisted non Buddhist method of training the mind that divorces samatha and vipassana.
MN 19 instructs further that to fulfill the passadhi/pacification awakening factor, to properly enter first jhāna, one has to also have bodily pacification and mental pacification. Learning to replace wrong thoughts with good ones takes care of most of the mental pacification, but one more step there is to slow down and calm the thoughts so that they're not too intense, otherwise that disturbs the body and prevents bodily passaddhi.
When both body are mind are pacified with right thoughts on Dhamma, then you have overlap with AN 11.2.

The next sutta, MN 20 gives you a few more tools to deal with how to progress beyond first jhāna. Again, the skill has to do with training the mind to master thoughts, to (verbally) think what one what's to, and not think what one doesn't want to. It's not about becoming a master of staring at kasinas and turning your brain off to go into a frozen disembodied stupor. The gradual development of the 4 jhānas is holistic and integrated with the noble eightfold path, one learns to progress beyond higher jhānas by deepening the seeing of dukkha, seeing the danger of wrong thoughts. Not to trust cult leaders, stare at kasinas and shut your brain off. That kind of approach does not deepen understanding and seeing of dukkha, and only provides an escapist temporary vacation from dukkha if one has the samatha kung fu to do that. But once one leaves a frozen disembodied stupor, your existential problems are still there.

Along with MN 20, there are SN 47.10, and many other suttas as I linked in the references quoted that how how vitakka and vicāra are verbal thoughts of first jhāna that one actively trains as a holistic integrated part of noble eightfold path to think beneficial thoughts related to Dhamma, to deepen seeing of dukkha, and to generate pīti, rapture, a mental factor, as needed when one needs to lubricate the mind with joy.

Pīti, unlike the wrong teachings of LBT theravada kasina samatha to enter frozen disembodied stupor, is mentally produced, produced intentionally by using subverbal or verbal thoughts that generate mental joy that delights in Dhamma related themes.


SamanaJohann_ wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 1:37 pm
frank k wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 11:28 am Rather than going by what you think, why not read the suttas and see how the Buddha describes how pīti is volitionally produced by right types of thinking generated from samma sankappa and the vitakka and vicara of first jhana?
https://lucid24.org/sted/7sb/4piti/book/index.html

Also see SN 47.10, and a ton of sutta references here how vitakka and vicara are used to generate pīti
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/smd1/index.html

"volitionally produced..." not directly, or lets say independent, good householder. As the Sublime Buddha declared in the Cetana Sutta: no need for an act of will, when the condition arises (no fault).
"...For a person free from remorse, there is no need for an act of will, 'May joy arise in me.' It is in the nature of things that joy arises in a person free from remorse....
Right effort goes again back to the basics, Saddha or Sila (right view), leaving home, "world" first (sati is as well such way).
"One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort...
"One tries to abandon wrong resolve & to enter into right resolve: This is one's right effort...
"One tries to abandon wrong speech & to enter into right speech: This is one's right effort...
"One tries to abandon wrong action & to enter into right action: This is one's right effort...
"One tries to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter into right livelihood: This is one's right effort."
It's always the same wheel, yet with different words for different pattern of perception.

Satipaṭṭhāna (another way of telling same pattern) leads as well toward the 7 factors of awakening.
Aside of himself not willing to try the lokuttara-paṭiccasamuppāda, by really surrender in regard of the world, good householder Frank doesn't do a bad at all, the opposite. It's just when understanding, but then not doing, one starts more and more seek for windmills or to try to reanimate dead dogs (get's neurotic). May he not fear the lose of sensual pleasures and soon let the dead dogs their rest. Enough good done for the world, to go for the whole task.
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by auto »

frank k wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 12:43 pm The post I was responding to, is likely based on erroneous LBT Theravada ideas that one should stare at a kasina if one hopes for pīti to arise, and not think verbal thoughts at all because thoughts are antithetical to first jhāna (of heterodox redefined jhāna). This kind of teaching is totally against the holistic and gradual way jhāna is developed in the EBT (early buddhist teachings).
..
post of yours i read yesterday caused afflictions to arise, took 2 hours to get it to stop arising in the morning i woke up, i couldn't get it out of my head.
Meditation i did featured,
1. seeing affliction arising
2. stop the affliction and see clear mind
3. black background
4. Orb formed condensed black background in heart area
5. connecting with that orb caused the affliction stop rearising

When affliction arose, i also thought how stupid and wrong idea someone can have about abhidhamma and visuddhimagga, this kind of thinking didn't stop me being able to cease this type of thinking with the affliction too, but this affliction kept rearising, i were thinking how stupid is to just waste time with thinking about it, so i tried to stay with the clear mind and look out of the eyes instead of mental content.
At some point i noticed black empty state in the background and further more the black circle in heart area to which i connected and affliction doesn't arise no matter how much i would think about it.

I think i never had blackout state and its later form occur in a single day.
BrokenBones
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Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by BrokenBones »

Maybe this is the time of the Buddha-Sasana's enlightenment period 😉. Instead of the separation of church & state we're seeing the separation of Dhamma & 'Ancient' subversions that infiltrated. We're very lucky Theravada monastics preserved the suttas. But it was unfortunate that many deemed these less worthy of study than the theories that seeped into the Dhamma.

It warms my heart to see monastics being brave enough to voice their concerns. Punnaji, Thanissaro, Vimalaramsi, Bhante G are maybe the better known who have expressed dissent but there are many lesser known monastics out there who are challenging the 'orthodoxy' along with quite a few lay teachers... it's a good time to find the Dhamma 👍
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