Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:51 pm On this occasion, he didn’t know … and so made a fatal mistake.
However he kept calm and carried on
User avatar
mjaviem
Posts: 2302
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by mjaviem »

cappuccino wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:54 pm However he kept calm and carried on
Of course. The fault is only on the eyes of those who blame the Buddha. He has nothing to regret because he didn't act out of greed or hatred or delusional.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by cappuccino »

mjaviem wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 5:19 pm He has nothing to regret because he didn't act out of greed or hatred or delusion.
:goodpost:
atipattoh
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:28 am

Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by atipattoh »

Alex123 wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:36 am Sandha sutta says:
"perception of earth with regard to earth has ceased to exist;" . Note it is NOT necessarily the bare perception of the object itself that ceases. Same for all the other categories.
Earth is not bare object, dude! But earth element of rupa!

AN10.7 is the forward order attainment, which joe probably prefer to call nirodha samapatti; within to the arupa attainments, in compounded phenomena. Direction -> Emptiness release
Once, friend Ananda, when I was staying right here in Savatthi in the Blind Man’s Grove, I reached concentration in such a way that I was neither percipient of earth with regard to earth… nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet I was still percipient.” and yet I was still percipient .
After forward order, into reverse mode, Which Sandha sutta pointed to. Direction -> Signless; no nimitta, no perception!
“There is the case, Sandha, where for an excellent thoroughbred of a man the perception of earth with regard to earth has ceased to exist; the perception of liquid with regard to liquid… the perception of fire with regard to fire… the perception of wind with regard to wind… the perception of the sphere of the infinitude of space with regard to the sphere of the infinitude of space… the perception of the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness with regard to the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness… the perception of the sphere of nothingness with regard to the sphere of nothingness… the perception of the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception with regard to the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception… the perception of this world with regard to this world… the next world with regard to the next world… and whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, or pondered by the intellect: the perception of that has ceased to exist.
See the different? Comparing apple with orange?
Your Sandha sutta , “the perception of that has ceased to exist” is obviously NOT “still percipient”. Are you aware that you are putting Arahant as zombie? If you are still so not see the different; your choice!

Briefly, the difference is, “what is "detected" in” compare to “what is arrived at”, for arupa domain.

MN1? Don't mix up samadhi with view!
The danger that I see in over-focusing on ONE object or perception is that, IMHO, it promotes craving/clinging to that object.
Did Ānāpānasati teaches hearing, smelling, touching, tasting or thinking of any other things; or just knowing the breath long-short at the beginning, nothing else?
atipattoh
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:28 am

Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by atipattoh »

Joe.c wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:22 am The Sandha Sutta described Nirodha samapatti because one is still perceiving. An arahant free with wisdom or free both way is still perceiving after arahanthood.
Wow!
whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, or pondered by the intellect: the perception of that has ceased to exist.

Sandha sutta
Don't turn arahants into zombies, friend! 😂
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Coëmgenu »

Venerable Puññaji famously said that the only difference between a Buddha and a rock is that a Buddha has metabolism and a rock does not.

I don't agree with that, but it's an interesting comment verging on the trollish.

Either way, I suppose this thread is actually still on-topic, since it's discussing "methods" presented in the suttas, in this case related to the rūpajhānāni. "Jhānāni" is the plural of jhāna.

Another user claimed that the term "rūpajhānāni" (rūpa jhānas) does not appear in the suttas, and he is correct. The jhānas, however, are attainments related to the rūpadhātu in the suttas, and the arūpyasamāpattī related to the arūpyadhātu, even in the Pāli suttas, hence the coined term "rūpa jhānas."
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Alex123 »

atipattoh wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:35 pm Did Ānāpānasati teaches hearing, smelling, touching, tasting or thinking of any other things; or just knowing the breath long-short at the beginning, nothing else?
One is supposed to feel the entire body, and in any interpretation, it would include chest expanding and all the motions and feeling of the breath. Also thinking is part of citta-sankhara, so it is present. Since one is in seclusion (and probably with closed eyes), it is unlikely that one will hear much, or see and taste. Touching, of course one would feel that. One is sitting on something.
Earth is not bare object, dude! But earth element of rupa!
Bare perception of earth (and other "physical" things) exists. A person in meditation isn't supposed to obsess about it and cling to it.


again, in Sandha sutta one still has some sort of "awareness" so how can it be saññāvedayitanirodha?
“In the same way, an excellent thoroughbred of a man, having gone to the wilderness, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty dwelling, dwells with his awareness not overcome by sensual passion, not obsessed with sensual passion. He discerns the escape, as it has come to be, from sensual passion once it has arisen.

“He dwells with his awareness not overcome by ill will… sloth & drowsiness… restlessness & anxiety… uncertainty, obsessed with uncertainty. He discerns the escape, as it has come to be, from uncertainty once it has arisen.

“He is absorbed dependent neither on earth, ... [etc]

Also, speaking about "method", Ananda's awakening was very interesting. Maybe that was the trick, to radically let go, and don't focus on anything. Let things be. Don't cling to an object (be it kasina, breath, postures or whatever).


IMHO.
Last edited by Alex123 on Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22391
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Alex123 wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:27 pm One is supposed to feel the entire body, and in any interpretation, it would include chest expanding and all the motions and feeling of the breath. Also thinking is part of citta-sankhara, so it is present. Since one is in seclusion (and probably with closed eyes), it is unlikely that one will hear much, or see and taste. Touching, of course one would feel that. One is sitting on something.
Some sutras agree with the Visuddhimagga in saying one should be aware of all of the breaths, rather than being aware of the whole body. We even have a sutra which says we should fix mindfulness at the tip of the nose, which would diminish awareness of other parts of the body.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Alex123 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:38 pm
Alex123 wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:27 pm One is supposed to feel the entire body, and in any interpretation, it would include chest expanding and all the motions and feeling of the breath. Also thinking is part of citta-sankhara, so it is present. Since one is in seclusion (and probably with closed eyes), it is unlikely that one will hear much, or see and taste. Touching, of course one would feel that. One is sitting on something.
Some sutras agree with the Visuddhimagga in saying one should be aware of all of the breaths, rather than being aware of the whole body.

In the first two steps you are already aware of entire "body"/length of breaths.

We can't feel the breath outside of the physical body. The only way to feel the breath is that if it, or temperature of it, touches your body (most often the entrance of the nose). As one is breathing, one feels one's lungs expand and contract, one feels one's stomach moving, one feels the weight of the body on the floor/chair/cushion. One hears the breathing process. So all "bodies" are felt.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22391
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Alex123 wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:43 pm

1) In the first two steps you are already aware of entire "body"/length of breaths.
The first step is to be aware that the breath is long or short. This is followed by sustaining attention to all of the breaths IMO, at the tip of the nose or some other location. This in turn then tranquilises the breath and stills the mind.
2nd of all) We can't feel the breath outside of the physical body. The only way to feel the breath is that if it, or temperature of it, touches your body (most often the entrance of the nose). As one is breathing, one feels one's lungs expand and contract, one feels one's stomach moving, one feels the weight of the body on the floor/chair/cushion. One hears the breathing process. So all "bodies" are felt.
At first yes, but as you become more one-pointed and absorbed awareness of the rest of the body (and the outside world) begins to fall away.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Alex123 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:46 pm
The first step is to be aware that the breath is long or short.
Yes, and this fulfills knowing the entire length/"body" of the breath.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:46 pm This in turn then tranquilises the breath and stills the mind.
While the breath becomes more tranquill, it does NOT cease. Buddha was emphatic on this. He made sure to tell this in ALL 16 steps of anapanasati, not anapana-nirodha.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:46 pm At first yes, but as you become more one-pointed and absorbed awareness of the rest of the body (and the outside world) begins to fall away.
A person feels the breath, then the entire body, then feelings, then mental states, than Dhamma. It seem like awareness becomes more panoramic.
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Alex123 »

As for original question:
Interesting event that Ajahn Chah has described:
(Long excerpt)
UNSHAKEABLE PEACE

I once stayed in a forest monastery that was half a mile from a village. One night the villagers were celebrating with a loud party as I was doing walking meditation. It must have been after 11:00 and I was feeling a bit peculiar. I’d been feeling strange like this since midday. My mind was
quiet. There were hardly any thoughts. I felt very relaxed and at ease. I did walking meditation until I was tired and then went to sit in my grass-roofed hut. As I sat down I barely had time to cross my legs before, amazingly, my mind just wanted to delve into a profound state of peace. It happened all by itself. As soon as I sat down, the mind became truly peaceful. It was rock solid.
...
Eventually I did take a break, but it was only the posture of sitting that changed. My heart remained constant, unwavering and unflagging. I pulled a pillow over, intending to take a rest. As I reclined, the mind remained just as peaceful as it had been before. Then, just before my head hit the pillow, the mind’s awareness began flowing inwards, I didn’t know where it was headed, but it kept flowing deeper and deeper within. It was like a current of electricity flowing down a cable to a switch. When it hit the switch my body exploded with a deafening bang. The knowing during that time was extremely lucid and subtle. Once past that point the mind was released to penetrate deeply inside. It went inside to the point where there wasn’t anything at all. Absolutely nothing from the outside world could come into that place. Nothing at all could reach it. Having dwelt internally for some time, the mind then retreated to flow back out.
However, when I say it retreated, I don’t mean to imply that I made it flow back out. I was simply an observer, only knowing and witnessing. The mind came out more and more until it finally returned to normal.

Once my normal state of consciousness returned, the question arose, ‘What was that?!’ The answer came immediately, ‘These things happen of their own accord. You don’t have to search for an explanation.’ This answer was enough to satisfy my mind.

After a short time my mind again began flowing inwards. I wasn’t making any conscious effort to direct the mind. It took off by itself. As it moved deeper and deeper inside, it again hit that same switch. This time my body shattered into the most minute particles and fragments. Again the mind was released to penetrate deeply inside itself. Utter silence. It was even more profound than the first time. Absolutely nothing external could reach it. The mind abided here for some time, for as long as it wished, and then retreated to flow outwards. At that time it was following its own momentum and happening all by itself. I wasn’t influencing or directing my mind to be in any particular way, to flow inwards or retreat outwards. I was merely the one knowing and watching.

My mind again returned to its normal state of consciousness, and I didn’t wonder or speculate about what was happening. As I meditated, the mind once again inclined inwards. This time the entire cosmos shattered and disintegrated into minute particles. The earth, ground, mountains,
fields and forests – the whole world – disintegrated into the space element. People had vanished. Everything had disappeared. On this third time absolutely nothing remained. The mind, having inclined inwards, settled down there for as long as it wished. I can’t say I understand exactly how it remained there. It’s difficult to describe what happened. There’s nothing I can compare it to.
No simile is apt. This time the mind remained inside far longer than it had previously, and only after some time did it come out of that state. When I say it came out, I don’t mean to imply that I made it come out or that I was controlling what was happening. The mind did it all by itself. I was merely an observer. Eventually it again returned to its normal state of consciousness. How could you put a name on what happened during these three times? Who knows? What term are you going to use to label it?
Last edited by Alex123 on Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22391
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Alex123 wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:08 pm

Yes, and this fulfills knowing the entire length/"body" of the breath.
I think you are misunderstanding me. It is to sustain attention to the beginning, middle and end of all of the breaths without interruption. This builds on the first, as does each stage build on the last.

While the breath becomes more tranquill, it does NOT cease. Buddha was emphatic on this. He made sure to tell this in ALL 16 steps of anapanasati, not anapana-nirodha.
I didn't say it ceases.
A person feels the breath, then the entire body, then feelings, then mental states, than Dhamma. It seem like awareness becomes more panoramic.
I wouldn't practice that way. There are traditions though were one is aware of the whole body, prior to tranquilising the breath. The Sarvāstivāda-Vaibhāṣika and Sautrāntika would agree with you, although even for them you still have to fix your attention somewhere for absorption to occur (at the tip of the nose comes up again). I don't think awareness comes more "panoramic". I think the first tetrad leads to the 1st Jhāna, the second tetrad involves the 1st to the 3rd Jhāna whilst the third tetrad leads up to the 4th Jhāna. As for the fourth tetrad I think that has to do with insight after Jhāna regarding the conditionality of the hindrances and awakening factors, as per Sujato's arguments regarding Satipaṭṭhāna.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Joe.c
Posts: 1484
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Joe.c »

atipattoh wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:51 pm Wow!
...
Don't turn arahants into zombies, friend! 😂
Good luck. Look like i have wasted my time 🤣😂. But some will understand hopefully.

If not, One will find out before death for sure.

Make sure the whole path is one unity to end dukkhas. The body and mind become cool. 😁
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
atipattoh
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:28 am

Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by atipattoh »

Joe.c wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:27 pm
atipattoh wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:51 pm Wow!
...
Don't turn arahants into zombies, friend! 😂
Good luck. Look like i have wasted my time 🤣😂. But some will understand hopefully.

If not, One will find out before death for sure.

Make sure the whole path is one unity to end dukkhas. The body and mind become cool. 😁
:rofl:

Luckily, i have not wasted, even a small fraction of my time in this thread!

Good luck to you too!
Post Reply