Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
atipattoh
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:28 am

Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by atipattoh »

Alex123 wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:27 pm
atipattoh wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:35 pm
Earth is not bare object, dude! But earth element of rupa!
Bare perception of earth (and other "physical" things) exists. A person in meditation isn't supposed to obsess about it and cling to it.
Isn't that the Buddha teaches one to guard his meditation object with care, by day and by night?
again, in Sandha sutta one still has some sort of "awareness" so how can it be saññāvedayitanirodha?
“In the same way, an excellent thoroughbred of a man, having gone to the wilderness, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty dwelling, dwells with his awareness not overcome by sensual passion, not obsessed with sensual passion. He discerns the escape, as it has come to be, from sensual passion once it has arisen.

“He dwells with his awareness not overcome by ill will… sloth & drowsiness… restlessness & anxiety… uncertainty, obsessed with uncertainty. He discerns the escape, as it has come to be, from uncertainty once it has arisen.

“He is absorbed dependent neither on earth, ... [etc]
The process of it surely has the mind to kick-off, but the state of highest attainment that is arrived at, clearly stated that perception ceased! There is no possible twist for this.
Unless, again, arahants is a zombie?

If you don't trust, even on the obvious that is presented to you; but still wants to know the difference, the pointer is to look for the way of how to practice emptiness and signless. It should help you to understand.
Also, speaking about "method", Ananda's awakening was very interesting. Maybe that was the trick, to radically let go, and don't focus on anything. Let things be. Don't cling to an object (be it kasina, breath, postures or whatever).
The Buddha does not teach not to cling to the meditation object - the tool, your breath for example. He teaches to stay with the breath, when the time is right, move on!

But, He teaches don't cling to attainments - the result of the samadhi as i, me, mine.

Established sati on the fore, does that means the Buddha instruct you to pay attention to your body, lung? When you have not seen what is long and short, don't speculate!
atipattoh
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:28 am

Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by atipattoh »

Alex123 wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:36 am Once, friend Ananda, when I was staying right here in Savatthi in the Blind Man’s Grove, I reached concentration in such a way that I was neither percipient of earth with regard to earth… nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet I was still percipient ".
I should have reminded you to look at this when responding, in earlier post, 2:30am for me, was a bit sleepy!
AN 10.7
“One perception arose in me and another perception ceased: ‘The cessation of continued existence is extinguishment. The cessation of continued existence is extinguishment.’
This obviously, is not "perception of that has ceased to exist" (vanished vibhūtā).
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Alex123 »

atipattoh wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:51 pm Don't turn arahants into zombies, friend!
I think it is difficult for us to imagine what it is like to be an Arahant.

One point of view is that other than lack of any potential/underlying tendency to greed, anger & delusion. But then, how exactly does this feels like? Certain perceptions would have to cease.

But then there are very deep teachings describing the awakened state as:
"One not percipient of perceptions
not percipient of aberrant perceptions,
not unpercipient,
nor percipient of what's disappeared:
for one arriving at this,
form disappears —
for objectification-classifications (papañcasaṅkhā)
have their cause in perception."
SN4.11
Since arahants don't have any papañcasaṅkhā, ever, (right?), the above state describes their state.
atipattoh
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:28 am

Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by atipattoh »

Alex123 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:25 am But then there are very deep teachings describing the awakened state as:
"One not percipient of perceptions
not percipient of aberrant perceptions,
not unpercipient,
nor percipient of what's disappeared:
for one arriving at this,
form disappears
for objectification-classifications (papañcasaṅkhā)
have their cause in perception."
SN4.11
It appears to sound "deep", but if you identify the marker of "form disappears", pretty save to say that it falls within AN9.31
For someone who has attained the dimension of infinite space, the perception of form has ceased.
Two sets of duplicate statements:
"One not percipient of perceptions (refer to ->)
---- not percipient of aberrant perceptions"

"not unpercipient (<- refer to)
---- nor percipient of what's disappeared:
The onset of animitta. The numbering that you give is difficult to trace back to sutta in suttacentral, so i can't see if form is rupa.

Not percipient of form (not percipient of aberrant perceptions), but percipient of domains (not unpercipient) for animitta'ing at onset; for "nor percipient of what's disappeared", "disappears" doesn't apply, form not even arises yet!

Don't mix up with an10.7, else it is going to sound very deep poetic; but the fact is, it is not!
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Alex123 »

atipattoh wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:24 pm It appears to sound "deep", but if you identify the marker of "form disappears", pretty save to say that it falls within AN9.31
It is not arupa states. It is, probably, a state of Arhatship where there are no more perception of form, and neither any
Two sets of duplicate statements:
"One not percipient of perceptions (refer to ->)
---- not percipient of aberrant perceptions"

"not unpercipient (<- refer to)
---- nor percipient of what's disappeared:
No. That is the difficulty in that passage. It has 4 statements
1) not percipient of perceptions Na saññasaññī
2) not percipient of aberrant perceptions na visaññasaññī.
3) not unpercipient, Nopi asaññī
4) nor percipient of what's disappeared: na vibhūtasaññī

If not for (papañcasaṅkhā) then it would have probably fit into base of neither perception nor nonperception. But somethings suggest that it probably isn't this state. Otherwise Rama (Buddha's 2nd teacher) would have been Awakened.

atipattoh wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:24 pm The onset of animitta. The numbering that you give is difficult to trace back to sutta in suttacentral, so i can't see if form is rupa.
At sutta central the link is
https://suttacentral.net/snp4.11/en/suj ... ript=latin


It appears that Arhants don't perceive rupa
"Conditioned by name & form
is contact.
In longing do graspings,
possessions have their cause.
When longing isn't
mine-ness does not exist.
When forms have disappeared
contacts don't touch."
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8151
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Coëmgenu »

Alex123 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:22 pmIt appears that Arhants don't perceive rupa
"Conditioned by name & form
is contact.
In longing do graspings,
possessions have their cause.
When longing isn't
mine-ness does not exist.
When forms have disappeared
contacts don't touch."
In traditional Buddhist models of cognition, rūpa is what the eye, as a sense-basis, interacts with. "Doesn't perceive rūpa" = "blind."
atipattoh
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:28 am

Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by atipattoh »

Alex123 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:22 pm It is not arupa states.
It is already an onset of "first level" "timeless", what papañcasaṅkhā is there?

People are easy to dismiss when they read arupa states; the scheme of 9, is the backbone of the structure; emptiness is within 9, signless is within 9.

Well, if you prefer to make your life difficult, your choice.

But that is not my taste!
atipattoh
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:28 am

Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by atipattoh »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:40 pm
Alex123 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:22 pmIt appears that Arhants don't perceive rupa
I was quite surprised by that statement ....
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Alex123 »

atipattoh wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:05 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:40 pm
Alex123 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:22 pmIt appears that Arhants don't perceive rupa
I was quite surprised by that statement ....
I was also surprised, lets look at MN#1 again:
A commoner "perceives" while a trainee and arahant "directly knows" earth as earth and the whole totality of experience.
The Blessed One said: “There is the case, monks, where an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person—who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for people of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma—perceives earth as earth.
...
“A monk who is a Worthy One, devoid of effluents—who has attained completion, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, destroyed the fetters of becoming, and is released through right knowledge—directly knows earth as earth.
MN1

I think that Arahant are not misled by additional perceptions that un-awakened people impute on rupa as it appears in experience. There is probably a huge shift in "perception" when one becomes an Arahant. IMHO.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22410
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Alex123 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:52 pm
atipattoh wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:05 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:40 pm
I was quite surprised by that statement ....
I was also surprised, lets look at MN#1 again:
A commoner "perceives" while a trainee and arahant "directly knows" earth as earth and the whole totality of experience.
The Blessed One said: “There is the case, monks, where an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person—who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for people of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma—perceives earth as earth.
...
“A monk who is a Worthy One, devoid of effluents—who has attained completion, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, destroyed the fetters of becoming, and is released through right knowledge—directly knows earth as earth.
MN1

I think that Arahant are not misled by additional perceptions that un-awakened people impute on rupa as it appears in experience. There is probably a huge shift in "perception" when one becomes an Arahant. IMHO.
So they still perceive rupa.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8151
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Coëmgenu »

I've dealt with MN 1 misconceptions like this before. Usually it is argued that only worldlings have saññā, because Arhats don't have aggregates. From there, you can mentalize rūpa and say that Arhats don't experience rūpa either, based on the earlier dismissal of the Arhats' saññā.

The trick is making clear the functions of abhijānāti & jānāti with respect to saññā. We'll see if someone beats me to it.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
NotMe
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:41 pm

Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by NotMe »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:59 pm The trick is making clear the functions of abhijānāti & jānāti with respect to saññā. We'll see if someone beats me to it.
I lose. abhijānāti:
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/abhijanati
Abhijānāti, (abhi + jñā, cp. jānāti & abhiññā) to know by experience, to know fully or thoroughly, to recognise, know of (c. Acc.), to be conscious or aware of D.I, 143; S.II, 58, 105, 219, 278; III, 59, 91; IV, 50, 324, 399; V, 52, 176, 282, 299; Sn.1117 (diṭṭhiṃ Gotamassa na a.); J.IV, 142; Pv.II, 710 = II.103 (n’ābhijānāmi bhuttaṃ vā pītaṃ); Sdhp.550; etc. — Pot. abhijāneyya Nd2 78a, & abhijaññā Sn.917, 1059 (= jāneyyāsi SnA 592); aor. abhaññāsi Sn.p. 16. — ppr. abhijānaṃ S.IV, 19, 89; Sn.788 (= °jānanto C.), 1114 (= °jānanto Nd2 78b) abhijānitva DhA.IV, 233; abhiññāya S.IV, 16; V, 392; Sn.534 (sabbadhammaṃ), 743 (jātikkhayaṃ), 1115, 1148; It.91 (dhammaṃ); Dh.166 (atta-d-atthaṃ); frequent in phrase sayaṃ abhiññāya from personal knowledge or self-experience It.97 (v.l. abhiññā); Dh.353; and abhiññā (short form, like ādā for ādāya, cp. upādā) in phrase sayaṃ abhiññā D.I, 31 (+ sacchikatvā); S.II, 217; It.97 (v.l. for °abhiññāya), in abhiññā-vosita perfected by highest knowledge S.I, 167 = 175 = Dh.423 (“master of supernormal lore” Mrs Rh. D. in kindred S. p. 208; cp. also DhA.IV, 233); It.47 = 61 = 81, and perhaps also in phrase sabbaṃ abhiññapariññeyya S.IV, 29. — grd. abhiññeyya S.IV, 29; Sn.558 (°ṃ abhiññātaṃ known is the knowable); Nd2 s.v.; DhA.IV, 233. — pp. abhiññāta (q. v.). (Page 63)
jānāti:
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/janati
1) Janati, 2 to make a sound J. VI, 64 (=sanati saddaṃ karoti). (Page 278)
2) Janati, 1 (Sk. janati (trs.) & jāyate (intrs.); *gene & *gnē to (be able to) produce; Gr. gi/gnomai (gέnesis) gnwtόs =jāta=(g)nātus; Lat. gigno, natura, natio; Goth. knōps & kunps; Cymr. geni, Ags. cennan, Ohg. kind, etc. ) only in Caus. janeti (Sk. janayati) often spelled jāneti (cp. jaleti: jāleti) & Pass. (intrs.) jāyati to bring forth, produce, cause, syn. sañjaneti nibbatteti abhinibbatteti Nd2 s. v. (cp. karoti). ussāhaṃ j. to put forth exertion J. II, 407 (see chanda); (saṃ)vegaṃ j. to stir up emotion (aspiration) J. III, 184; PvA. 32; Mhvs. I, 4; dukkhaṃ j. to cause discomfort PvA. 63.—Aor. janayi Th. 2, 162 (Māyā j. Gotamaṃ: she bore).—pp. janita produced PvA. 1.—See also jantu jamma, jāta, jāti, ñāti, etc. (Page 278)
— or —
Jānāti, (Vedic jñā, jānāti *genē & *gnē, cp. Gr. gignwζkw, gnwtόs, gnώsis; Lat. nosco, notus, (i)gnarus (cp. E. i-gnorant); Goth. kunnan; Ohg. kennan, Ags. cnāwan=E. know) to know.

I. Forms: The 2 Vedic roots jān° & jñā° are represented in P. by jān° & ñā° (ña°) 1. jān: pres. jānāti; pot. jāneyya (Sn. 781) & jaññā (A. IV, 366; Sn. 116, 775; Dh. 157, 352; J. II, 346; IV, 478) 2nd sg. jāneyyāsi (M. I. 487; J. I, 288), 1st pl. jāniyāma (Sn. 873) & (archaic) jānemu (Sn. 76, 599; Vv 8311);— imper. jānāhi (Sn. 596, 1026; Pv. II, 912), 3rd. sg. jānātu (It. 28);— ppr. jānanto & jānaṃ (D. I, 192; A. I, 128; Sn. 722), ppr. med. jānamāna (J. I, 168);— fut. jānissati (J. II, 342; VI, 364);— aor. ajāni (Sn. 536) & jāni (J. I, 125, 269), 3rd pl. jāniṃsu (J. II, 105; VvA. 113);— ger. jānitvā (J. I, 293; III, 276); inf. jānituṃ (J. I, 125). Caus. jānāpeti (see below IV. 2).—2. ñā: fut. ñassati (D. I, 165);— aor. aññāsi (J. I, 271) & nāsi (Sn. 471), 3rd pl. aññaṃsu (Vv 224).—ger. ñatvā (frequent);— grd. ñeyya A. II, 135 (see below) & ñātabba (PvA. 133);— inf. ñātuṃ (frequent) — pp. ñāta (q. v.). ‹-› Pass. ñāyati to be called or named (Miln. 25).

II. Cognate Forms: Nd2 s. v. explains jānāti by passati dakkhati adhigacchati vindati paṭilabhati, & ñatvā (No. 267) by jānitvā tulayitvā tirayitva vibhāvayitvā vibhūtaṃ katvā (very frequent) The 1st explanation is also applied to abhijānāti, & the 2nd to passitvā, viditaṃ katvā, abhiññāya & disvā. The use of the emphatic phrase jānāti passati is very frequent. Yaṃ tvaṃ na jānāsi na passasi taṃ tvaṃ icchasi kāmesi? Whom you know not neither have seen, is it she that you love and long for? D. I, 193; Bhagavā jānaṃ jānāti passaṃ passati cakkhubhūto ñāṇabhūto M. I, 111; similarly A. IV, 153 sq. See further D. I, 2, 40, 84, 157 sq, 165, 192 sq. , 238 sq.; A. I, 128; III, 338; V, 226; Sn. 908; Nd2 35, 413, 517; Vism. 200.

III, Meaning: (1) Intrs. to know, to have or gain knowledge, to be experienced, to be aware, to find out: mayam pi kho na jānāma surely, even we do not know D. I, 216; te kho evaṃ jāneyyaṃ they ought to know ib.; jānantā nāma n’âhesuṃ “nobody knew” J. III, 188; jānāhi find out J. I, 184; kālantarena jānissatha you will see in time PvA. 13; ajānanto unawares, unsuspecting I. 223; ajānamāna id. Pv. II, 314.—2. Trs. to know recognize, be familiar with (usually c. Acc. , but also with Gen. : J. I, 337; II, 243), to have knowledge of, experience, find; to infer, conclude, distinguish, state, define: yaṃ ahaṃ jānāmi taṃ tvaṃ jānāsi D. I, 88; aham p’etaṃ na jānāmi Sn. 989; jānanti taṃ yakkhabhūtā Pv IV. 135; paccakkhato ñatvā finding out personally J. I, 262; III, 168; cittam me Gotamo jānāti S. I, 178; jānāti maṃ Bhagavā S. I, 116; kathaṃ jānemu taṃ mayaṃ? How shall we know (or identify) him? Vv 8311; yathā jānemu brāhmaṇaṃ so that we may know what a b. is Sn. 599; yath’âhaṃ jāneyyaṃ vasalaṃ Sn. p. 21; ajānanto ignorant PvA. 4; annapānaṃ ajāṇanto (being without bread & water) PvA. 169; ittaraṃ ittarato ñatvā inferring the trifling from the trifle Pv. I, 1111; iṅgha me uṇh’odakaṃ jānāhi find me some hot water S. I, 174; seyyaṃ jānāhi Vin. IV, 16; phalaṃ pāpassa jānamāna (having experi‹-› enced) J. I, 168; mantaṃ j. (to be in possession of a charm) J. I, 253; maggaṃ na j. Sn. 441; pamāṇaṃ ajānitvā (knowing no measure) PvA. 130.—3. With double Acc. : to recognize as, to see in, take for, identify as, etc. (cp. Caus.): petaṃ maṃ jānāhi “see in me a Peta” Pv. II, 912 (=upadhārehi PvA. 119); bhadd’itthiyā ti maṃ aññaṃsu (they knew me as=they called me) Vv 224.

IV. Various: 1. Grd. ñeyya as nt. =knowledge (cp. ñāṇa): yāvatakaṃ ñeyyaṃ tāvatakaṃ ñāṇaṃ (knowledge coincides with the knowable, or: his knowledge is in proportion to the k. , i.e. he knows all) Nd2 2352m; ñāṇaṃ atikkamitvā ñeyyapatho n’atthi “beyond knowledge there is no way of knowledge” ib.; ñeyyasāgara the ocean of knowledge PvA. 1.—2. Caus. jānāpeti to make known, to inform, or (with attānaṃ) to identify, to reveal oneself J. I, 107 (att. ajānāpetvā); VI, 363; Vism. 92 (att.); PvA. 149 (att.); DhA. II, 62. (Page 282)
saññā:
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/sanna

In Buddhism
Theravada (major branch of Buddhism)
— Sanna in Theravada glossary
Source: Access to Insight: A Glossary of Pali and Buddhist TermsLabel; perception; allusion; act of memory or recognition; interpretation. See khandha.Source: Dhamma Dana: Pali English Glossary
F (Perception).
Source: Journey to Nibbana: Patthana Dhama
One of the Sabbacittasadharana cetasikas.
Perception;
Sanna is perception. It perceives marks on object. Due to its presence, citta cognizes object. Sanna arises with each arising citta. It suggests citta to cognize object through markers on the object and it registers things and records what it experiences while it is working together with citta. Sanna is one of four vipaka namakkhandha or resultant nama aggregate.
Source: Dhamma Study: Cetasikas
remembrance; Countless moments of sanna succeed one another and perform their function so that we can remember. successive events such as sentences we hear when someone is speaking.
Sanna is One of the Seven Universals.
Source: Pali Kanon: Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines
1. 'perception', is one of the 5 groups of existence (khandha, q.v.), and one of the 7 mental factors (cetasika) that are inseparably bound up with all consciousness (s. cetanā). It is sixfold as perception of the 5 physical sense-objects and of mental objects. It is the awareness of an object's distinctive marks ("one perceives blue, yellow, etc.," S. XXII, 79). If, in repeated perception of an object, these marks are recognized, saññā functions as 'memory' (s. Abh. St., p. 68f.).
2. saññā stands sometimes for consciousness in its entirety, e.g. in n'eva-saññā-n'āsaññāyatana, 'the realm of neither-perception-nor- non-perception'; further, in asaññā-satta, 'unconscious beings'. In both cases reference is not to 'perception' alone, but also to all other constituents of consciousness. Cf. D. 9.
3. saññā may also refer to the 'ideas', which are objects of meditation, e.g. in a group of 7 ideas, of impermanence (anicca-s. ), etc. (A. VII, 46); of 10: impurity (asubha-s.), etc. (A. X, 56), and another set of 10 in A. X. 60; or to wrong notions, as in nicca-, subha-s. (the notion of permanence, beauty), etc.

— Sanna in Buddhism glossary
Source: WikiPedia: Buddhism
Sañña is a Buddhist term that is typically translated as "perception" or "cognition." It can be defined as grasping at the distinguishing features or characteristics. In Sanskrit the term is known as Saṃjñā. In the early Buddhism Theravadin texts of the Nikayas/Āgamas, Sañña is the third of the Five Aggregates (khandha/skandha) which can be used to skillfully delineate phenomenological experiences during meditation.
Languages of India and abroad
Pali-English dictionary
[«previous (S) next»] — Sanna in Pali glossary
Source: Sutta: The Pali Text Society's Pali-English Dictionary
Saññā, (f.) (fr. saṃ+jñā) (pl. saññāyo and saññā — e.g. M. I, 108) 1. sense, consciousness, perception, being the third khandha Vin. I, 13; M. I, 300; S. III, 3 sq.; Dhs. 40, 58, 61, 113; VbhA. 42.—2. sense, perception, discernment, recognition, assimilation of sensations, awareness M. I, 293; A. III, 443 (nibbāna°); S. III, 87; Sn. 732 (saññāya uparodhanā dukkhakkhayo hoti; explained as “kāmasaññā” SnA); Miln. 61; Dhs. 4; DhsA. 110, 200 (rūpa° perception of material qualities).—3. consciousness D. I, 180 sq.; M. I, 108; Vbh. 369 (nānatta° c. of diversity: see nānatta); Miln. 159; J. IV, 391; is previous to ñāṇa D. I, 185; a constituent part of nāma S. II, 3, cp. Sn. 779; according to later teaching differs from viññāṇa and paññā only as a child’s perceiving differs from (a) an adult’s, (b) an expert’s Vism. 436 sq.; Dhs. translation 7 n. 2, 17 n. 2.—nevasaññā-nâsaññā neither consciousness nor unconsciousness D. III, 224, 262 sq.; M. I, 41, 160; II, 255; III, 28, 44; Ps. I, 36; Dhs. 268, 582, 1417; Kvu 202; Nett 26, 29; Vism. 571.—4. conception, idea, notion D. I, 28; III, 289 (cp. Dial. III, 263: “concept rather than percept”); M. III, 104; S. I, 107; Sn. 802, 841; J. I, 368 (ambaphala saññāya in the notion or imagining of mango fruit); Vism. 112 (rūpa° & aṭṭhika°). saññaṃ karoti to imagine, to think J. II, 71; to take notice, to mind J. I, 117.—5. sign, gesture token, mark J. I, 287; II, 18; paṇṇa° a mark of leaves J. I, 153; rajjusaññā a rope used as a mark, a guiding rope, J. I, 287; rukkha-saññaṃ pabbata-saññaṃ karonto, using trees and hills as guiding marks J. IV, 91; saññaṃ dadāti to give the sign (with the whip, for the horse to start) J. VI, 302.—6. saññā is twofold, paṭighasamphassajā and adhivacanasamphassajā i.e. sense impression and recognition (impression of something similar, “association by similarity, ” as when a seen person calls up some one we know), Vbh. 6; VbhA. 19 sq.; threefold, rūpasaññā, paṭighasaññā, and nānattasaññā A. II, 184; S. II, 211; cp. Sn. 535; or kāma°, vyāpāda°, vihiṃsā° (as nānatta°) Vbh. 369, cp. VbhA. 499; fivefold (pañca vimutti-paripācaniyā saññā); anicca°, anicce dukkha°, dukkhe anatta°, pahāna°, virāga° D. III, 243, cp. A. III, 334; there are six perceptions of rūpa, sadda, gandha, rasa, phoṭṭhabba, and dhamma, D. II, 309; S. III, 60; the sevenfold perception, anicca-, anatta-, asubha-, ādīnava-, pahāna-, virāga-, and nirodha-saññā, D. II, 79; cp. A. III, 79; the tenfold perception, asubha-, maraṇa-, āhāre paṭikkūla-, sabbaloke anabhirata-, anicca-, anicce dukkha-, dukkhe anatta-, pahāna-, virāga-, nirodha-saññā A. V, 105; the one perception, āhāre paṭikkūlasaññā, Cpd. 21.—7. See further (unclassified refs.): D. I, 180; II, 277 (papañca°); III, 33, 223; S. II, 143; A. II, 17; IV, 312; Nd1 193, 207; Nett 27; Vism. 111, 437, 461 sq. (in detail); VbhA. 20 (pañca-dvārikā), 34; VvA. 110; and on term Cpd. 40, 42.
Correct me: "I know nibbana is the deathless. I know from experience nibbana is the deathless." Is this it?

Good lord, in Okie talk you just say 'I hears thit yada yada' or you spit on the ground n' say 'I ain't kidding' ya'll yada yada'.

Please tell me I'm wrong...

Metta

:anjali:

edit to add: We are civilized here. If out in public, 'n ladies is present 'n all, ya just "act" like yer spittin.
Last edited by NotMe on Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8151
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Coëmgenu »

NotMe wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:19 pmPlease tell me I'm wrong...
You're wrong.

I mean, actually, for the sake of the truth, I have to say that your definitions are fine and that I don't totally understand your post, but I also know the value of a 'please,' and I am more than willing to lie if the telling of the lie is utterly consentual.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
NotMe
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:41 pm

Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by NotMe »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:27 pm
NotMe wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:19 pmPlease tell me I'm wrong...
You're wrong.

I mean, actually, for the sake of the truth, I have to say that your definitions are fine and that I don't totally understand your post, but I also know the value of a 'please,' and I am more than willing to lie if the telling of the lie is utterly consentual.
What little time I have left is so valuable to me, I hurried my brain. I'll just go sit. On a cactus for practice. Pardon the interruption.

Carry on...

Metta

:anjali:
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

Post by Alex123 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:54 pm So they still perceive rupa.
They directly know it, rather than merely perceiving it like a commoner.
Of course some sort of 6 sense consciousness devoid of wrong views/perceptions, obviously, remains.
Post Reply