Stop looking for a Method... it's already there.

[BrokenBones]

Just a few thoughts on jhana...

If anyone has undertaken a thorough reading of the suttas then several thing stands out...

The path is gradual.

The Buddha rarely talked about a method for jhana.

This omission is clarified if one understands that sila, sense restraint, investigating dangers of sensual desires and advantages of renunciation, similarly with other hindrances... is the method.
The sutta below sets this out beautifully...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

And reaches towards a finale with...

"Unflagging persistence was aroused in me, and unmuddled mindfulness established. My body was calm & unaroused, my mind concentrated & single. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation."

Notice that no white light or subtle vibration is mention... why would it? That would be part of sense desire.

Sati is remembrance... remembrance and application of the teachings... what else could develop wisdom? A sensation under a nostril? A beautiful white image? Being aware of a sensation down your spine and your little toe? What wisdom is being developed here? How are any of these things helpful in daily life?

Wisdom is earned, it doesn't come with bright lights, subtle sensations or closing the body off to experience...

“Dwelling thus withdrawn, one recollects that Dhamma and thinks it over. Whenever, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwelling thus withdrawn recollects that Dhamma and thinks it over, on that occasion the enlightenment factor of mindfulness is aroused by the bhikkhu; on that occasion the bhikkhu develops the enlightenment factor of mindfulness; on that occasion the enlightenment factor of mindfulness comes to fulfilment by development in the bhikkhu.

“Dwelling thus mindfully, he discriminates that Dhamma with wisdom, examines it, makes an investigation of it. Whenever, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwelling thus mindfully discriminates that Dhamma with wisdom, examines it, makes an investigation of it, on that occasion the enlightenment factor of discrimination of states is aroused by the bhikkhu; on that occasion the bhikkhu develops the enlightenment factor of discrimination of states; on that occasion the enlightenment factor of discrimination of states comes to fulfilment by development in the bhikkhu."


https://suttacentral.net/sn46.3/en/bodh ... ight=false

I think that in the search for a method other than the one the Buddha constantly taught, the beautiful teachings of the Buddha have become muddled.

[Ceisiwr]

The 5th precept only refers to alcohol. Heroin isn’t directly mentioned in the suttas, therefore for someone who just keeps the 5 precepts it’s ok to do heroin according to the logic presented above.

[BrokenBones]

The 5th precept only refers to alcohol. Heroin isn’t directly mentioned in the suttas, therefore for someone who just keeps the 5 precepts it’s ok to do heroin according to the logic presented above.

You've totally lost me

But if you want to do heroin then that's entirely up to you (I wouldn't recommend it, it might come under intoxicants that befuddle the mind).

I've tried to understand what you're trying to say but

Could you explain?

[Ceisiwr]

The 5th precept only refers to alcohol. Heroin isn’t directly mentioned in the suttas, therefore for someone who just keeps the 5 precepts it’s ok to do heroin according to the logic presented above.

You've totally lost me

But if you want to do heroin then that's entirely up to you (I wouldn't recommend it, it might come under intoxicants that befuddle the mind).

I've tried to understand what you're trying to say but

Could you explain?

The point was that on a literal “only go by what’s directly mentioned in the suttas” kind of approach it’s not against the precepts to do heroin. Now I don’t think that myself. I think that even though the 5th precept only mentions alcohol, it’s against the spirit of the 5th precept to do other drugs. Point being the suttas don’t cover everything. Taking this back to meditation, more specific meditation techniques aren’t mentioned but I don’t see them being against what is being taught. That they aren’t mentioned it fine to me, because I don’t think suttas cover absolutely everything. Why do we have them then? Well I think it could be the case that initially meditation techniques weren’t needed. Most of the people whom the Buddha was discussing meditation with would have likely had some years of prior experience already. Naturally as time went on and the sangha enlarged more people joined with less experience, and so we can see how helpful techniques like counting and fixing at the tip of the nose, or somewhere else, developed.

I think it’s helpful to remember that Buddhism isn’t just about texts. It’s also a living meditative tradition.

[SarathW]

The 5th precept only refers to alcohol. Heroin isn’t directly mentioned in the suttas, therefore for someone who just keeps the 5 precepts it’s ok to do heroin according to the logic presented above.

Please do not Slander (misrepresent) Buddha.
I have nothing against people who consume alcohol and use drugs but do not try to justify it.

[Ceisiwr]

The 5th precept only refers to alcohol. Heroin isn’t directly mentioned in the suttas, therefore for someone who just keeps the 5 precepts it’s ok to do heroin according to the logic presented above.

Please do not Slander (misrepresent) Buddha.

I’ve done no such thing.

[BrokenBones]

Hi Ceisiwr

More disrespectful to put into suttas things that aren't there. People sometimes forget that the Buddha is the 'Peerless teacher'... if something was worth mentioning then I have confidence that the Buddha would have mentioned it.

With your reasoning, anything & everything could be slipped into the teachings... and in some cases has.

[mikenz66]

Hi Ceisiwr

More disrespectful to put into suttas things that aren't there. People sometimes forget that the Buddha is the 'Peerless teacher'... if something was worth mentioning then I have confidence that the Buddha would have mentioned it.

With your reasoning, anything & everything could be slipped into the teachings... and in some cases has.

No one is "putting things into the suttas". As I've said before, my opinion is that the Suttas mostly talk about results. As for the details of getting through the hindrances, etc, those are something that the individual has to work out, preferably with the help of someone more experienced:

As for the person who has neither serenity nor discernment: they should approach someone who has serenity and discernment and ask: ‘Reverend, how should the mind be stilled? How should it be settled? How should it be unified? How should it be immersed in samādhi?’ How should conditions be seen? How should they be comprehended? How should they be discerned?’ That person would answer as they’ve seen and known: ‘Reverend, this is how the mind should be stilled, settled, unified, and immersed in samādhi. And this is how conditions should be seen, comprehended, and discerned.’ After some time they have both serenity and discernment.
https://suttacentral.net/an4.94/en/sujato

I think it’s helpful to remember that Buddhism isn’t just about texts. It’s also a living meditative tradition.

Exactly. The lack of detail on method means that we have to be creative, not slavishly following some particular method. To that extent I agree with BrokenBones - methods are not the goal, methods are not the Dhamma. But they can be helpful in approaching the goal.


Mike

[BrokenBones]

Hi Mike

I agree with the creative part or rather the individuality of practice. We all have different experiences of anger, desire etc. to work with and what we come up with to combat these is fine as long as they fall within the Buddha's teachings of 'wholesome'.

A trusted friend/teacher is to be desired.

I disagree that the suttas deal largely with results... My argument is that there is a method and it is expounded throughout the suttas. The method I've described is to be taken on by each individual and is an individual practice.

I also disagree that things are not put 'into' the suttas. The practices & methods that seem to be prevalent in Theravada bear little relation to Buddhadhamma and the growth of wisdom... unless you can explain the wisdom of nose gazing... yes it produces concentration... but it is a concentration of sense desire.

Delight in the sensation or nimitta of a sensed object as opposed to the naturally arising joy of actually abandoning sense desires.

[Sam Vara]

Notice that no white light or subtle vibration is mention... why would it? That would be part of sense desire.

Presumably it would only be part of sense desire if one desired it. And who asks one to develop a desire for such things? I've tried out traditions where subtle physical vibrations are discerned, and a nimitta (presumably what you mean by "white light") and in all cases the meditator has been warned not to attach to it, or to desire what is not there.

[Coëmgenu]

The light of the "nimitta" is simply the natural luminosity of the rūpadhātu. Prove me wrong.

I joke (I mean, not really, but I joke in stating it so unequivocally).

[auto]

Notice that no white light or subtle vibration is mention... why would it? That would be part of sense desire.

Sati is remembrance... remembrance and application of the teachings... what else could develop wisdom? A sensation under a nostril? A beautiful white image? Being aware of a sensation down your spine and your little toe? What wisdom is being developed here? How are any of these things helpful in daily life?

Wisdom is earned, it doesn't come with bright lights, subtle sensations or closing the body off to experience...

jhana factors are not discerned from kamma at first. Factors are the people, objects, situations. These are kamma objects, which have a sign, at first it is learning sign, anyway you gonna separate factor what would bring jhana from an external object and focus on that. Eventually there is change in lineage(going from desire realm to form realm) and then the factor doesn't need kaya, kaya belongs to desire realm not form realm a'la no need go to a river to wash yourself off from bad kamma.

[Ceisiwr]

Notice that no white light or subtle vibration is mention... why would it? That would be part of sense desire.

I’ve posted before, but never gets old for me

[auto]

Notice that no white light or subtle vibration is mention... why would it? That would be part of sense desire.

Presumably it would only be part of sense desire if one desired it. And who asks one to develop a desire for such things? I've tried out traditions where subtle physical vibrations are discerned, and a nimitta (presumably what you mean by "white light") and in all cases the meditator has been warned not to attach to it, or to desire what is not there.

i know those rumors too, not to focus on nimitta that they are idk what vipassana nana where useless nimittas arise.
That's not the case if you have proper nimitta.

[Ceisiwr]

Notice that no white light or subtle vibration is mention... why would it? That would be part of sense desire.

Presumably it would only be part of sense desire if one desired it. And who asks one to develop a desire for such things? I've tried out traditions where subtle physical vibrations are discerned, and a nimitta (presumably what you mean by "white light") and in all cases the meditator has been warned not to attach to it, or to desire what is not there.

Being a mental object I don’t see how it can fall under sensual desire myself.