Blank slate vs. reborn

[NotMe]

Additionally, there's far too much speculation in this tedious topic. Far better that we just get on with our own study and practice - and let others attend to theirs in whatever form it takes.

Great post. And the post above too. I had no idea the context/dynamic of the posters.

Just what if-ing - Suppose Ajaan Brahm and Ajaan Thanissaro were hashing out this scenario and you were a fly on the wall.

Might you post this thread? Idle chatter perhaps … perhaps not?

Metta

[Joe.c]

Let’s explore further.
There is the order of bhikkus and the order of bhikkunis and bhikkunis must adhere to additional vinyana.

If you have understood the whole vinaya, it is used to protect true dhamma & people who have gone forth and want to practice hard to understand true dhamma. One who doesn’t want to practice usually will fall from the sangha due to the difficulty to keep/maintain the vinaya. And hopefully the sangha can remain pure (aka fill with ariya), but impossible nowadays.

But for one who has transcend the wordly thing (completely detached from 5 senses and reach samma sati/ samma samadhi), those vinaya is easy. One just needs to keep ariyan precepts in daily life and watch/maintain the samadhi/sati for 24/7. And continue to maintain all the skillful/wholesome behaviors that have been developed until one reach arahanthood.

Btw it is not easy to reach arahant level, it may take time unless one has developed their morality & mind in the past. Although DO doesn’t involve time, but the development of faculties take time. Buddha know this, so he never push his disciples. But he did recommend one who has gone forth to reach samma samadhi (jhana) so they are at least reach non returner level or higher. No need to suffer more in sensual realms in future at the very least.

We have situations in the lay world where a man is transitioning to a woman identity and these women are being given the opportunity to compete in female sporting events. This man ultimately believes he is a woman and apparently everyone must go along with this or.

This thing is worldly thing. World will always change, no one can control. But you can control your destiny. Like I can control mine as well. But you and I can’t change people who don’t want to listen or have their own agenda.

Like i said if you want to continue to practice in the path, you need to abandon all views/identities and keep only 4NT. If you can’t, then take a baby step first such as maintain good morality for 24/7. Even this is difficult, alas there is no easy way.

you are transphobic

Lol. You can certainly have your own opinion. But just try to understand true dhamma, you will understand I’m not. I’m just repeating what Buddha implied in his teaching.

His teaching of ending of dukkhas is truly marvelous, unsurpassable by anyone even the gods/deva.

Now from a dhamma perspective can a woman identify as a man and ordain as a bhikku and bypass the extra vinyana rules and any difficulties bhikkunis experience in past?

Also, ultimately I may feel I am nothing but wavelets and bubbles or feel I am another past life regression but apparently to others I am a man in this reality with wife and offspring. Is the expectation on everyone else to play along and support my ultimate realities or can each make their own judgements based on the reality they experience from moment to moment?

Nowadays it is just difficult to know who really know the true dhamma. Almost everything look the same. But you can weed out the fake one once you have the wisdom. The true dhamma is still in Sutta. If one can understand, one can surely enter the stream. But need to learn, practice and maintain for 24/7.

Like I said ultimate dhamma such as DO is not for lay people. Lay people just needs to hear true dhamma first from ariya and practice morality (5 precepts) in daily life (24/7). From there one can progress. There is no meaning if one is still attach to the worldly things and try to understand the whole DO. It is impossible to understand unfortunately because one also needs the development of faculties for support.

But nowadays lay people practice meditation, which Buddha never even teach to lay follower in the past except some persons who have entered the stream, and developed their morality & mind to certain extent.

Good luck though.

[SteRo]

Why is it accepted that a biological man is a woman because they believe this to be true but a man cannot identify as a sotapanna and have this confirmed and accepted?

Interesting question. I'd guess it is because: there are countless men and women and since it is kind of "given by birth" there is no inherent value in "being man" or "being woman" because one hasn't done anything to achieve this. So why necessarily connect manhood or womanhood with sexual organs? Since it is no achievement who cares?
"sotapanna" in contrast is considered to be an achievement after having done things right and not wrong and it is no general phenomenon but only a phenomenon within a religious community. Since this is so claiming sotapanna in contrast to claiming man- or womanhood may evoke competitiveness and thus will not easily be accepted by fellow religious believers.

[NotMe]

Why is it accepted that a biological man is a woman because they believe this to be true but a man cannot identify as a sotapanna and have this confirmed and accepted?

Interesting question. I'd guess it is because: there are countless men and women and since it is kind of "given by birth" there is no inherent value in "being man" or "being woman" because one hasn't done anything to achieve this. So why necessarily connect manhood or womanhood with sexual organs? Since it is no achievement who cares?
"sotapanna" in contrast is considered to be an achievement after having done things right and not wrong and it is no general phenomenon but only a phenomenon within a religious community. Since this is so claiming sotapanna in contrast to claiming man- or womanhood may evoke competitiveness and thus will not easily be accepted by fellow religious believers.

Your post, it Cuts like a knife. Pretty sharp IMO.

Metta

[thepea]

Why is it accepted that a biological man is a woman because they believe this to be true but a man cannot identify as a sotapanna and have this confirmed and accepted?

Interesting question. I'd guess it is because: there are countless men and women and since it is kind of "given by birth" there is no inherent value in "being man" or "being woman" because one hasn't done anything to achieve this. So why necessarily connect manhood or womanhood with sexual organs? Since it is no achievement who cares?
"sotapanna" in contrast is considered to be an achievement after having done things right and not wrong and it is no general phenomenon but only a phenomenon within a religious community. Since this is so claiming sotapanna in contrast to claiming man- or womanhood may evoke competitiveness and thus will not easily be accepted by fellow religious believers.

Ok, I just spoke with the senior monk in Ottawa.
He said a woman(an adult female of the homosapien species) cannot ordain as a bhikku. This could upset the balance within the male monastic community.
He then stated a bhikkuni who would later identfy as a man is not doing the N8P and the acharia would not indulge the bhikkuni in this.

It’s simply a matter of formality the term man/woman to describe adult human beings as you do not refer to animals as man goat or female goat. You would call an adult goat a buck or Billy and an adult female a nanny or doe. If these goats became parents they would be called a sire(male) and a dam(female). All animal parents are either sire or dam. It is not formal to refer to any animal as a mother or father as this is to describe human species.
Common or slang language this is done, but going forth is not a common thing, it is formal.

[dharmacorps]

The possibility of a blank slate or empty vessel being born is the question.

OK, if that is the question, then the best answer is there is no possibility because of kamma. We come into the world with tons of baggage.

[thepea]

The possibility of a blank slate or empty vessel being born is the question.

OK, if that is the question, then the best answer is there is no possibility because of kamma. We come into the world with tons of baggage.

Agree 100% and IMO this is concurrent with buddhadhamma teachings.
So my assertion is the mind links up with the appropriate body at the moment of conception. And what happens after this is what this individual must require to meet the kammic debt function appropriately.
One could argue an animal in a particularly cruel slaughterhouse had potentially done similar activities and this presents an opportunity for the mind to observe this treatment occurring to them.
The woman born in the mans body asked for this, and as an adult this individual can mutilate their body as they desire and can contract the services of a willing surgeon to do any altercations available. But this does not change the formal definition of this individual. This would be a woman who altered body to become a man or a “transitioned man” which has its own formal definition.
So as human young are highly suggestion-able we must protect their innocence. At minimum puberty would have to be reached and to the stage where they could conceive a child. Then they by definition are adults and can “begin” the process of talking with a psychologist if mutilating the body is on the table.prior to this you can have therapy sessions but the medical procedures should not be mentioned. In a dhamma practice the individual should not medically mutilate the body to suit the mind.

[thepea]

Why is it accepted that a biological man is a woman because they believe this to be true but a man cannot identify as a sotapanna and have this confirmed and accepted?

Interesting question. I'd guess it is because: there are countless men and women and since it is kind of "given by birth" there is no inherent value in "being man" or "being woman" because one hasn't done anything to achieve this. So why necessarily connect manhood or womanhood with sexual organs? Since it is no achievement who cares?
"sotapanna" in contrast is considered to be an achievement after having done things right and not wrong and it is no general phenomenon but only a phenomenon within a religious community. Since this is so claiming sotapanna in contrast to claiming man- or womanhood may evoke competitiveness and thus will not easily be accepted by fellow religious believers.

Meh.
If the religious are practicing then me mentioning I’m sotapanna should not cause any competition, if you believe me, then you would be behind. And if you generate competetiveness then you are behind. It’s simply a mirror.
And if you feel I’m delusional you do not have to take part in my delusion.
But if we force everyone to take part in the delusions of others then we don’t have a mirror but a trap.

[thepea]

I identify as a sotapanna in some discussion threads here, and this is not accepted by all, and in some cases I am ridiculed or chastised for doing so.
Why is it accepted that a biological man is a woman because they believe this to be true but a man cannot identify as a sotapanna and have this confirmed and accepted?

The reason people ridicule you about your claim of sotapanna is because you constantly express the views of an ordinary person who can’t make compromises. Who relishes about having run-ins with the law. Who thinks being “tough” is a measure of wisdom. Who rants about masks. Do I need to keep going? In other words, you come off as a SINO (sotapanna in name only). You want all the prestige and respect even though your views are completely out of line with any reasonable measure of a sotapanna found in the texts. As far as I’m concerned, someone born a biological male, who decides to identify as a woman, and has developed and/or taken on many of the qualities of a woman through effort and dedication, has much less of a reason to be ridiculed for their claim than you do for yours.

The reason anyone ridicules another is their own kamma to bare.
I am master of this vessel and I need not compromise if I choose not to. I simply have to follow the precepts as best I can and respect trespass and property. Being arrested and put in prison is not against any morality per say and it’s how you feel in this situation which can show you where you are on the path. My 72hr stay was like a very extreme mini retreat. The worst part was the inability to make a phone call to my wife to let her know I was ok. This mentally grated at me and it was amplified with the fact I didn’t know if I was going to be there 1 day or 3years as I felt like a political prisoner because traditional rights were denied.
I can appear to others as a bad man, a silly man, a heroic man, etc.... it only affects the one judging me and me if I allow this, but if I’m practicing and observing then it’s good practice.
But I do not hold the view that you all must believe me and identify me as the sotapanna pea. If I wanted and needed that I could easily change my user name to this or lord sotapanna, I’m much further along the path than sotapanna anyways.
Bottom line I don’t really care if a woman identifies as man and sits with the male group. I can’t go anymore anyways because of the jibby jabby stuff. But I don’t have to buy into anothers claims.

[santa100]

But I do not hold the view that you all must believe me and identify me as the sotapanna pea. If I wanted and needed that I could easily change my user name to this or lord sotapanna, I’m much further along the path than sotapanna anyways...
And if you feel I’m delusional you do not have to take part in my delusion.

Obviously you've been thinking a bit too highly of yourself. Problem is noone in their right mind would have to "feel" that you're delusional. Your claim of Sotapanna-hood (and now that you've self-promoted yourself to: "much further along the path than sotapanna") when combined with all other threads you've been posting on DW so far already settled that inquiry a long long time ago. And the only reason folks have to respond to your claim is because at the current rate, it'll only take a few more threads before you start to claim that you've attained Sammasambuddha-hood!

[thepea]

But I do not hold the view that you all must believe me and identify me as the sotapanna pea. If I wanted and needed that I could easily change my user name to this or lord sotapanna, I’m much further along the path than sotapanna anyways...
And if you feel I’m delusional you do not have to take part in my delusion.

Obviously you've been thinking a bit too highly of yourself. Problem is noone in their right mind would have to "feel" that you're delusional. Your claim of Sotapanna-hood (and now that you've self-promoted yourself to: "much further along the path than sotapanna") when combined with all other threads you've been posting on DW so far already settled that inquiry a long long time ago. And the only reason folks have to respond to your claim is because at the current rate, it'll only take a few more threads before you start to claim that you've attained Sammasambuddha-hood!

This is off topic unless you can qualify this statement. Otherwise it’s merely part of your fantasy.

You can’t have it both ways. Either we must play along with each other’s fantasies or we can use logic and words and their formal definitions and make our free choice to discern.

[santa100]

This is off topic unless you can qualify this statement. Otherwise it’s merely part of your fantasy.

You can’t have it both ways. Either we must play along with each other’s fantasies or we can use logic and words and their formal definitions and make our free choice to discern.

My fantasy? I am not the one who claims to have attained Sotapanna. You are. So the one who has to qualify his statement is you, not me. And now that you've already self-promoted to be "much further on the path than Sotapanna", it'll be only a matter of time until you start claiming Buddhahood! So to save time, why don't you just say it out loud to everyone right now that you have already attained Buddhahood? Go on, just say it out loud.

[thepea]

This is off topic unless you can qualify this statement. Otherwise it’s merely part of your fantasy.

You can’t have it both ways. Either we must play along with each other’s fantasies or we can use logic and words and their formal definitions and make our free choice to discern.

My fantasy? I am not the one who claims to have attained Sotapanna. You are. So the one who has to qualify his statement is you, not me. And now that you've already self-promoted to be "much further on the path than Sotapanna", it'll be only a matter of time until you start claiming Buddhahood!

Yes, it’s your fantasy that I’m not as I claim.
Also it’s your issue if you have a problem with this claim.
If you don’t like it leave.
I’m sotapanna +++++

[Jack19990101]

imo -
This appointed gender trend, is a reflection of human's dissatisfaction toward life.
We have the inkling that the identity is a restriction, making us lack.
We don't feel we can be fully ourselves.

Human tries all sorts of evolutions to liberate ourselves - the old way is to get rich. Later, getting high. or now, try to be what i can not be.
We keep trying something new.

All this, no matter how relentless, is merely to be happy.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,



Please stop talking about thepea and sotapanna claims. That is not what this topic is about.



Metta,
Paul.