Blank slate vs. reborn

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
KathyLauren
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Re: Blank slate vs. reborn

Post by KathyLauren »

asahi wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:47 am In either case , does buddhism take such phenomena as kamma vipaka ? How would the Buddha deal with such case if being presented to Him ?
I would hope that Buddhists would treat it as kamma vipaka. There is no record of the Buddha discussing transgender issues.

There is an account (and I will see if I can track down a reference) that a bikkhu and a bikkhuni came to him after having experienced a spontaneous change of sex. There is no mention of exactly what that meant. The Buddha declared that the formerly male, now female, monk would henceforth reside with the bikkhunis, and that the formerly female, now male, nun would henceforth reside with the bikkhus.

Kathy
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Pondera
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Re: Blank slate vs. reborn

Post by Pondera »

KathyLauren wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:19 am
asahi wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:47 am In either case , does buddhism take such phenomena as kamma vipaka ? How would the Buddha deal with such case if being presented to Him ?
I would hope that Buddhists would treat it as kamma vipaka. There is no record of the Buddha discussing transgender issues.

There is an account (and I will see if I can track down a reference) that a bikkhu and a bikkhuni came to him after having experienced a spontaneous change of sex. There is no mention of exactly what that meant. The Buddha declared that the formerly male, now female, monk would henceforth reside with the bikkhunis, and that the formerly female, now male, nun would henceforth reside with the bikkhus.

Kathy
Buddha also stated that, for a man, there is nothing so enticing and desirable as the sight, the sound, the smell, the feel, the taste, and the thought of a woman.

For a woman, the same - but of a man.

I brought this to light a long time ago. Before gender and politics were ever a contentious issue causing so much concern.

If I recall, a few members were quite pissed off when I supposedly implied that gay men and lesbian women were omitted by the Buddha. I don’t personally believe that. But if you take the sutta that this assertion is in literally, it can be a real pot stirring issue :stirthepot:
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
thepea
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Re: Blank slate vs. reborn

Post by thepea »

KathyLauren wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:14 am
thepea wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:15 am Yes, I’m not arguing against that. But more the empty vessel ideology.
I understand that. My point was that no one actually believes that "empty vessel" ideology. Not transgender people and certainly not the professionals who treat them. They all know that those mental imprints were formed before birth. So it is a straw man argument, like arguing against legs on a snake.

Kathy
Well they are looking at putting “x” on the birth certificate. Which is the sex which seems ridiculous to me.
Prison systems for example, what determines the prison an individual would stay? Do we make an x prison for those gender/sex neutral or simply put everybody in one system.
But then the monastic system would need to look hard at the division of monks and nuns.
But then samsara is a giant prison with all forms of beasts.
So....
KathyLauren
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Re: Blank slate vs. reborn

Post by KathyLauren »

KathyLauren wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:19 am There is an account (and I will see if I can track down a reference) that a bikkhu and a bikkhuni came to him after having experienced a spontaneous change of sex. There is no mention of exactly what that meant. The Buddha declared that the formerly male, now female, monk would henceforth reside with the bikkhunis, and that the formerly female, now male, nun would henceforth reside with the bikkhus.
I found a reference: https://sfonline.barnard.edu/queer-reli ... iterature/

Kathy
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NotMe
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Re: Blank slate vs. reborn

Post by NotMe »

KathyLauren wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:55 am
KathyLauren wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:19 am There is an account (and I will see if I can track down a reference) that a bikkhu and a bikkhuni came to him after having experienced a spontaneous change of sex. There is no mention of exactly what that meant. The Buddha declared that the formerly male, now female, monk would henceforth reside with the bikkhunis, and that the formerly female, now male, nun would henceforth reside with the bikkhus.
I found a reference: https://sfonline.barnard.edu/queer-reli ... iterature/

Kathy
Where are my socks? They have been knocked off. What wonderful tidings. Kathy thank you! You’re a deva in my books .

Metta.

:anjali:
santa100
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Re: Blank slate vs. reborn

Post by santa100 »

thepea wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:03 am Transition surgery is body mutilation, it breach’s first precept. You can do it, the earth will not implode, but it is mutilation and serves no dhammic healing purpose other than to show the individual this form is unsatisfactory, It is not a cure.
Wrong, first precept is about depriving a sentient being of life, not about a person who consciously volunteers to undergo bodily surgery. Although as already mentioned, there's a possibility that the person will eventually "grow out" of their current identity crisis and might not need transition procedure at all. So it's advisable that the person should not immediately jump into transition surgery, but seek other more gentle approaches first, like learning/practicing the Path, its wisdom teaching on Anicca/Anatta/Dukkha, and/or therapies with psychologists, etc. Only if one knows for sure there's absolutely zero possibility they might grow out of it, or none of those gentle approaches help alleviating their suffering, then surgery might be used as the weapon of last resort.
thepea
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Re: Blank slate vs. reborn

Post by thepea »

santa100 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:24 pm
thepea wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:03 am Transition surgery is body mutilation, it breach’s first precept. You can do it, the earth will not implode, but it is mutilation and serves no dhammic healing purpose other than to show the individual this form is unsatisfactory, It is not a cure.
Wrong, first precept is about depriving a sentient being of life, not about a person who consciously volunteers to undergo bodily surgery. Although as already mentioned, there's a possibility that the person will eventually "grow out" of their current identity crisis and might not need transition procedure at all. So it's advisable that the person should not immediately jump into transition surgery, but seek other more gentle approaches first, like learning/practicing the Path, its wisdom teaching on Anicca/Anatta/Dukkha, and/or therapies with psychologists, etc. Only if one knows for sure there's absolutely zero possibility they might grow out of it, or none of those gentle approaches help alleviating their suffering, then surgery might be used as the weapon of last resort.
First precept is about destruction(mutilation).
KathyLauren
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Re: Blank slate vs. reborn

Post by KathyLauren »

santa100 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:24 pm So it's advisable that the person should not immediately jump into transition surgery, but seek other more gentle approaches first, like learning/practicing the Path, its wisdom teaching on Anicca/Anatta/Dukkha, and/or therapies with psychologists, etc. Only if one knows for sure there's absolutely zero possibility they might grow out of it, or none of those gentle approaches help alleviating their suffering, then surgery might be used as the weapon of last resort.
Nobody jumps right into transition surgery. That isn't how it works.

The person must have been on transition hormones for a year and have lived full-time in their new gender for a year before any surgeon will consider their application. They must have letters from two psychologists attesting to the fact that they have been evaluated and found to have genuine gender dysphoria.

So the medical profession is well ahead of you on this.

Kathy
santa100
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Re: Blank slate vs. reborn

Post by santa100 »

KathyLauren wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:00 pm Nobody jumps right into transition surgery. That isn't how it works.

The person must have been on transition hormones for a year and have lived full-time in their new gender for a year before any surgeon will consider their application. They must have letters from two psychologists attesting to the fact that they have been evaluated and found to have genuine gender dysphoria.

So the medical profession is well ahead of you on this.

Kathy
Like i said, how can you be so sure that the person would absolutely need those transition hormones at the first place? Has modern science identified absolutely 100% all side effects of transition hormones? And we are not only talking about long term physical effects, but also long term mental/psychological ones. What if they grow out of it at some point? Have they tried "gentler" approaches like studying the Buddha's Teaching in combination with some psycho-therapy first? In some respect, medical profession approach is like giving someone a hammer and everything looks like a nail! Try going to see ur doc and report some headache, and s/he'd much more likely to give you some pills instead of investigating the root cause and suggest natural approaches like stress management, healthy nutrition, getting enough sleep, etc. In some way, we can't really blame them, for if your headache turns out to be really severe and messes you up, they could get sued and get into deep trouble. So giving out some pills would be a surefire way to prevent lawsuits. Besides, doctors also need to make a living, hence their natural preferable "prescription-pill" tendency, hence the hammer and the nail problem.
KathyLauren
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Re: Blank slate vs. reborn

Post by KathyLauren »

santa100 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:29 pm
KathyLauren wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:00 pm Nobody jumps right into transition surgery. That isn't how it works.

The person must have been on transition hormones for a year and have lived full-time in their new gender for a year before any surgeon will consider their application. They must have letters from two psychologists attesting to the fact that they have been evaluated and found to have genuine gender dysphoria.

So the medical profession is well ahead of you on this.

Kathy
Like i said, how can you be so sure that the person would absolutely need those transition hormones at the first place?
Like I said, the people are interviewed extensively by psychologists. It is not difficult to diagnose gender dysphoria with the proper training. And the effects of hormones are evident very quickly. If they turn out to be the wrong solution, that will be apparent within a few weeks, at which point they can be discontinued. It is very common to prescribe a trial dose to determine this exact thing.
Has modern science identified absolutely 100% all side effects of transition hormones?
That is very silly. Nothing in life is absolutely 100%. But yes, the side effects are very well known, and have been studied over many decades. No medication is prescribed on the basis of 100% absolute certainty. They are prescribed on the basis of harm reduction: the side effects are a lesser harm than the problem they are intended to treat.
What if they grow out of it at some point?
If the diagnosis of gender dysphoria is accurate, and it is not a difficult one to make, the person will not grow out of it. Dysphoria typically gets worse as life goes on. As a result, the choice is often between transition or suicide.

If the diagnosis is not accurate, that will be apparent before any lasting harm occurs.
Besides, doctors also need to make a living, hence their natural preferable "prescription-pill" tendency, hence the hammer and the nail problem.
That is a problem of commercial health care.

Kathy
santa100
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Re: Blank slate vs. reborn

Post by santa100 »

KathyLauren wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:22 pm
santa100 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:29 pm
KathyLauren wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:00 pm Nobody jumps right into transition surgery. That isn't how it works.

The person must have been on transition hormones for a year and have lived full-time in their new gender for a year before any surgeon will consider their application. They must have letters from two psychologists attesting to the fact that they have been evaluated and found to have genuine gender dysphoria.

So the medical profession is well ahead of you on this.

Kathy
Like i said, how can you be so sure that the person would absolutely need those transition hormones at the first place?
Like I said, the people are interviewed extensively by psychologists. It is not difficult to diagnose gender dysphoria with the proper training. And the effects of hormones are evident very quickly. If they turn out to be the wrong solution, that will be apparent within a few weeks, at which point they can be discontinued. It is very common to prescribe a trial dose to determine this exact thing.
Has modern science identified absolutely 100% all side effects of transition hormones?
That is very silly. Nothing in life is absolutely 100%. But yes, the side effects are very well known, and have been studied over many decades. No medication is prescribed on the basis of 100% absolute certainty. They are prescribed on the basis of harm reduction: the side effects are a lesser harm than the problem they are intended to treat.
What if they grow out of it at some point?
If the diagnosis of gender dysphoria is accurate, and it is not a difficult one to make, the person will not grow out of it. Dysphoria typically gets worse as life goes on. As a result, the choice is often between transition or suicide.

If the diagnosis is not accurate, that will be apparent before any lasting harm occurs.
Besides, doctors also need to make a living, hence their natural preferable "prescription-pill" tendency, hence the hammer and the nail problem.
That is a problem of commercial health care.

Kathy
What i find silly is to immediately jump into the drug solution. You still don't know exactly what kind of damage physically and mentally those drugs can do to you, do you? This is not some headache pill your doctor prescribes when you report some headache to him. This is the drug that's literally a life-altering one! So why not try the wisdom of a 2,500 year-old teaching first? What harm can it do? what potentially live-saving effect it might have on the individual? And in worst case, it the gentle approach doesn't help, one always has the drug and the procedure to go to.
Last edited by santa100 on Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
KathyLauren
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Re: Blank slate vs. reborn

Post by KathyLauren »

santa100 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:28 pm What i find silly is to immediately jump into the drug solution. You still don't know exactly what kind of damage physically and mentally those drugs can do to you, do you? This is not some headache pill your doctor prescribes when you report some headache to him. This is virtually a life-altering decision! So why not trying the wisdom of a 2,500 year-old teaching first? What harm can it does? what potentially live-saving effect it might have on the individual?
And what makes you think they haven't?

As I said, the effects of hormones, both physical and mental, are very well known. You seem to be under the assumption that doctors are reckless. In fact, they are cautious in the extreme. There is nothing frivolous about hormone treatment.

You have no idea the hassle that transgender people have to go through to get treatment in the first place. In most cases, transition is a treatment of last resort.

Kathy
santa100
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Re: Blank slate vs. reborn

Post by santa100 »

KathyLauren wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:36 pm And what makes you think they haven't?

As I said (please read my posts), the effects of hormones, both physical and mental, are very well known. You seem to be under the assumption that doctors are reckless. In fact, they are cautious in the extreme. There is nothing frivolous about hormone treatment.

You have no idea the hassle that transgender people have to go through to get treatment in the first place. In most cases, transition is a treatment of last resort.

Kathy
I know they haven't because these drugs are still very new. And you already knew how often science had to reverse course on even well-established prescription drugs that have been around for a long long time!
I might not have any idea about the hassle that transgender folks have to go through, but i have a pretty good idea about the miracle the Buddha's Teaching have on a vast number of people, including me. Anyway, at least we agree that transition is a treatment of last resort. Try listening to the Buddha's words first, who knows, it might save one from those painful procedures and enormous medical bills they'll have to pay for the rest of their life.
Last edited by santa100 on Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
KathyLauren
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Re: Blank slate vs. reborn

Post by KathyLauren »

santa100 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:41 pm I know they haven't because these drugs are still very new. And you already knew how often science had to reverse course on even well-established prescription drugs that have been around for a long long time!
The most common transition hormones are bio-identical estradiol and testosterone. Those hormones have been around for at least 1 million years. Neither of them are totally harmless, but to say that they are very new and not well-understood is nonsense.

Kathy
santa100
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Re: Blank slate vs. reborn

Post by santa100 »

KathyLauren wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:45 pm The most common transition hormones are bio-identical estradiol and testosterone. Those hormones have been around for at least 1 million years. Neither of them are totally harmless, but to say that they are very new and not well-understood is nonsense.

Kathy
And not only it's nonsense but also criminal to push someone to immediately jump onto the drug popping bandwagon. I repeat, this is no regular headache drug, this is literally a life-altering one. Stop treating it like your headache drug. By the way, why are you intentionally avoiding the Buddha's teaching approach? Why can't it be the first attempt, instead of immediately resort to the drug approach? I'm not jamming the teaching up someone's throat here. If s/he's some certified atheists, then they can do whatever suits them. But if they're willing to give Buddhism a try, why avoiding that approach?
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